WWII vet beaten to death by two black teens

[JAB]

When white on black crime occurs, they shout racism and demand justice.  When opposite occurs, it is almost total silence.  I believe people are getting sick and tired of the blatant double standard.  I would also argue that whitewashing the latter is very dangerous in that it obscures the underlying cause of the problem, which is an overreaching federal government.

 

I have no problem recognizing race in this situation in addition to recognizing it in numerous other black on white crimes.  I don't do it out of any bias or prejudice.  I recognize it solely as an acknowledgement that the government's vile and down-right immoral actions the past several decades have created a disaster, especially within the teenage/young adult black community.  It is my belief that we will never see any improvement until society accepts that fact.

 

To me, the double standard that exists re: White on Black crime vs. Black on White crime is no different from the double standard that used to say that Black folks had to sit at the back of the bus or drink from a different water fountain.  Black folks were right to point out and protest that double standard and it is just as 'right' to point out and protest the double standard that has now swung in the other direction.  To think otherwise or act as if race doesn't matter in such cases, to me, is basically sticking one's head in the sand and hoping that things won't get worse.

[JAB]

I believe this administration and many of those who support this administration are hoping to incite a race war/civil unrest.

I understand how irrational that sounds, but I believe that different groups and probably for quite different reasons see benefit to them/their particular cause if an actual race war got going so I echo the comments above "watch your back".

 

I'm not suggesting that all blacks are killers looking for a "cracka" to kill but I think some clearly are, egged on from Obama to Jeremiah Wright.

 

In the past, I have actually discussed my views on just this sort of thing with Black friends and acquaintances of mine.  Keep in mind that this was while the Shrub was still in office, before Obama became POTUS and long before the nation had ever heard of a guy named George Zimmerman, etc.  I saw just such a thing coming even then.

 

What we discussed is the fact that I have more in common with the average Black man who goes to work on a daily basis and is just trying to live his life than either of us have in common with the George Bushes (and Barack Obamas) of the world.  Further, I believe that there are people 'in power' of all races, creeds and ethnicities who want to keep racial strife going because they know that if we ever stop hating each other long enough to look around we will realize that if there is 'oppression' going on it isn't the average White person oppressing Black people but, rather, that group of power brokers oppressing us all.  As long as they (the Obamas and Bushes and Cheneys and Gores and countless others whose names we will likely never know) can keep us at each others' throats - as long as they can use tools like Sharpton and Jesse Jackson to perpetuate distrust, anger and hatred - then we won't have time to turn our eyes to them and maybe, just maybe, do something about the real problem.

Edited August 26, 2013 by JAB

[Guest nra37922]

In the past, I have actually discussed my views on just this sort of thing with Black friends and acquaintances of mine.  Keep in mind that this was while the Shrub was still in office, before Obama became POTUS and long before the nation had ever heard of a guy named George Zimmerman, etc.  I saw just such a thing coming even then.

 

What we discussed is the fact that I have more in common with the average Black man who goes to work on a daily basis and is just trying to live his life than either of us have in common with the George Bushes (and Barack Obamas) of the world.  Further, I believe that there are people 'in power' of all races, creeds and ethnicities who want to keep racial strife going because they know that if we ever stop hating each other long enough to look around we will realize that if there is 'oppression' going on it isn't the average White person oppressing Black people but, rather, that group of power brokers oppressing us all.  As long as they (the Obamas and Bushes and Cheneys and Gores and countless others whose names we will likely never know) can keep us at each others' throats - as long as they can use tools like Sharpton and Jesse Jackson to perpetuate distrust, anger and hatred - then we won't have time to turn our eyes to them and maybe, just maybe, do something about the real problem.

You hit the 'nail on the head'.  Divide and conquer baby...

[JAB]

If I was told by a white person or a black person that I needed to strongly condemn the actions or speak out against it simply because I was black I would call that very racist.  Skin color doesn't mean you have to do anything or not do anything.  We are all our own individuals.

 

So, if you were around in the 1960s and were asked as a white person to condemn 'Jim Crow' laws then you think that would be racist? 

 

See, it isn't so much about individual crimes as it is about how the justice system - and, to a lesser extent - the media and even society treats such crimes.  As I said in another post, the FACT that black on white crimes are treated differently (never prosecuted under 'hate crime' laws, etc.) is no different than when things tended the other direction.  It was right for all people to recognize, point out and protest the inequalities, then and it is right to do so, now.

Edited August 26, 2013 by JAB

[TMF]

So, if you were around in the 1960s and were asked as a white person to condemn 'Jim Crow' laws then you think that would be racist?

See, it isn't so much about individual crimes as it is about how the justice system - and, to a lesser extent - the media and even society treats such crimes. As I said in another post, the FACT that black on white crimes are treated differently (never prosecuted under 'hate crime' laws, etc.) is no different than when things tended the other direction. It was right for all people to recognize, point out and protest the inequalities, then and it is right to do so, now.

We're talking about very different things. Jim Crow laws were self evident in their intent and executed by the state. A couple of black teenagers aren't. They could be perpetrating their crime for various reasons, not just because the victim happens to be white.

The assumption that your skin color means you have to be an activist for or against something is racist. You don't know what that black guy over there thinks. He may agree with everything you say, but because he isn't loudly proclaiming it he is wrong? That's what we're talking about here. Read back to what I am responding to; a chorus of folks who say "it is the fault of all black people because they don't come out and condemn this." Well in that case it is the fault of all white people who don't condemn the things that white people do.

Maybe I'm just an extremist here that believes the actions of a person who shares my skin color has no bearing on me, and I have no obligation to support or condemn their actions simply because of my skin color. So does the same apply to black people.

[Links2k]

In the past, I have actually discussed my views on just this sort of thing with Black friends and acquaintances of mine.  Keep in mind that this was while the Shrub was still in office, before Obama became POTUS and long before the nation had ever heard of a guy named George Zimmerman, etc.  I saw just such a thing coming even then.
 
What we discussed is the fact that I have more in common with the average Black man who goes to work on a daily basis and is just trying to live his life than either of us have in common with the George Bushes (and Barack Obamas) of the world.  Further, I believe that there are people 'in power' of all races, creeds and ethnicities who want to keep racial strife going because they know that if we ever stop hating each other long enough to look around we will realize that if there is 'oppression' going on it isn't the average White person oppressing Black people but, rather, that group of power brokers oppressing us all.  As long as they (the Obamas and Bushes and Cheneys and Gores and countless others whose names we will likely never know) can keep us at each others' throats - as long as they can use tools like Sharpton and Jesse Jackson to perpetuate distrust, anger and hatred - then we won't have time to turn our eyes to them and maybe, just maybe, do something about the real problem.

I've said things to this effect several times. I agree with your statement more than I will ever agree with any politician. I guess it's easier for some people to hate their fellow man than see where the real evil is and demand accountability from their representatives.

[Links2k]

Maybe I'm just an extremist here that believes the actions of a person who shares my skin color has no bearing on me, and I have no obligation to support or condemn their actions simply because of my skin color. So does the same apply to black people.

I agree.


Something that I have always believed is that guys like Jesse Jackson and his ilk receive more power from whites than they do from people of color. I believe that Jackson goes thru life completely ignored until he finds something like this forum for example and uses the words of its members to reinforce the belief that SOME whites hate non-whites and have no expectations of them regardless of their education/work history and that the feelings of whites especially in the south have not changed since the days of slavery. Think about it. When you read the unfiltered opinions of some of our members it's really an easy sale. Combine this with an agenda/profit driven media, corrupt businessmen and politicians you have a potent recipe for long time racial animosity. Edited August 27, 2013 by LINKS2K

[TMF]

I agree.


Something that I have always believed is that guys like Jesse Jackson and his ilk receive more power from whites than they do from people of color. I believe that Jackson goes thru life completely ignored until he finds something like this forum and uses the words of its members to reinforce the belief that SOME whites hate non-whites and have no expectations of them regardless of their education/work history and that the feelings of whites especially in the south have not changed since the days of slavery. Think about it. When you read the unfiltered opinions of some of our members it's really an easy sale. Combine this with an agenda/profit driven media, corrupt businessmen and politicians you have a potent recipe for long time racial animosity.

All those reasons are what concerns me and should give folks pause who say the same things as JJ only in reverse. We all recognize that JJ and Sharpton are racists and race profiteers. But folks who think that JJ is the "king of the blacks" are being disingenuous. No matter how many black people are standing in the background during one of JJ's racist tirades, it doesn't mean that all, or even a majority of black people agree with what he's saying or see him as anything more than a hustler.

We enter very dangerous territory when we can't separate race from the equation of violence and ignorance. We can't deny that there is a subculture in the US made up entirely of black people, but that doesn't mean all black people fall into that subculture. I often equate it to my trailer trash roots, as there were very few black people in my county, but a high density of trailer parks and scummy criminal white trash that had an entire subculture of abuse towards women and children, alcoholism, drug addiction, crime and racism. Sounds familiar, huh?

Yet when I see a white person I don't automatically see trailer trash or a person who supports that kind of lifestyle. If I see a white guy dressed like trailer trash, then yes, I will apply that label. Same goes for black people. I see black professionals every day. In no way does their skin color give me cause to relate them to this story, or any similar story. I don't know what their opinions are on it, and I don't care. If we aren't personal friends then discussing our opinions is pretty unprofessional to begin with, but for all I know they share the same opinions as I do. Since I don't know what their opinions are why should I automatically assume they a part of the problem because they aren't "actively speaking out". The notion that they have an obligation to is preposterous. And for anyone who ignores the last sentence and cherry picks other quotes from this post, I swear I will go back through this and other threads where people suggested this very thing. It's preposterous and racist.

It is not as if I ignore that the thug culture exists in poor black communities. I also recognize that most people born in those communities are raised to believe the white man is responsible for all their woes, and this indoctrination creates racists. But that doesn't apply to the whole of the race. When we do that we are the same as JJ and Sharpton, who claim that EVERY white person is responsible for racism in America. Saying ALL black people are part of the problem is no different..... and for folks who claim they didnt say that I promise you I will find all the quotes here on TGO to the contrary. Edited August 27, 2013 by TMF

[GoneBallistic]

All those reasons are what concerns me and should give folks pause who say the same things as JJ only in reverse. We all recognize that JJ and Sharpton are racists and race profiteers. But folks who think that JJ is the "king of the blacks" are being disingenuous. No matter how many black people are standing in the background during one of JJ's racist tirades, it doesn't mean that all, or even a majority of black people agree with what he's saying or see him as anything more than a hustler.

This is somewhat of an example of what I was trying to get across earlier in this thread but never could figure out how. If Bob Corker or someone similar was to speak in the area, I wouldn't attend. I don't care anything for the man and I disagree with him on most issues. But to someone who didn't know me, I would appear to be in this man's "group". I'm white, I'm a registered as a Republican, he's from my state, I dress respectably, etc. But I don't align with him so I don't associate myself with him. Isn't that how most people are? If a person shares opposite beliefs and in this case, morals, than JJ or Sharpton, why would they go to their events and "support" them? Not that they're standing there waving signs or anything but in that sort of event, support is generally measured in numbers.

 

I am not in any way saying that all black people are racist or that they all support these types of people or crimes. There are lots of black professionals who are conservative. Dr. Carson comes immediately to mind. I'm not denying this. I'm saying that IF all those "standing in the background" don't agree, why associate? The debate is not over the sign waivers in the front row, or about the obvious cases who don't come because they don't agree. It's those standing in the back that you say could be for or against. That is what I don't understand. 

[Guest nra37922]

There is power to have and money to be made with being a race/religion hustler.  Until the groups being 'played' wake up and see this for themselves the divisions are only going to get wider and wider. 

Edited August 27, 2013 by nra37922

[Erik88]

This past weekend in Orlando 3 white pieces of trash raped a black woman. They are investigating it as a hate crime which I have no problem with, but it is frustrating that they don't do the same thing with black on white crime.

[TMF]

This is somewhat of an example of what I was trying to get across earlier in this thread but never could figure out how. If Bob Corker or someone similar was to speak in the area, I wouldn't attend. I don't care anything for the man and I disagree with him on most issues. But to someone who didn't know me, I would appear to be in this man's "group". I'm white, I'm a registered as a Republican, he's from my state, I dress respectably, etc. But I don't align with him so I don't associate myself with him. Isn't that how most people are? If a person shares opposite beliefs and in this case, morals, than JJ or Sharpton, why would they go to their events and "support" them? Not that they're standing there waving signs or anything but in that sort of event, support is generally measured in numbers.

 

I am not in any way saying that all black people are racist or that they all support these types of people or crimes. There are lots of black professionals who are conservative. Dr. Carson comes immediately to mind. I'm not denying this. I'm saying that IF all those "standing in the background" don't agree, why associate? The debate is not over the sign waivers in the front row, or about the obvious cases who don't come because they don't agree. It's those standing in the back that you say could be for or against. That is what I don't understand. 

 

You misunderstood what I was saying.  Anyone who stands behind Jesse Jackson while he speaks and does not leave in disgust is either racist, ignorant, deaf, on the payroll or all of the above.  What I'm talking about is just because JJ stands up there with a bunch of black people doesn't mean that all black people (as a race) are in line with him.  He doesn't speak for all black people.  Hell, I've watched a few militant anti-white videos on YouTube in which even black power extremists don't like Jesse Jackson and call him a race hustler.

 

What I was referring to is the repeated mantra of black people who don't speak out against the racism that exists in the poor black community are somehow responsible or complicit with what other black people do.  We need to get away from that thought.  The only people that matter in that scenario are those who commit the crimes, those who raised them to be little monsters and those who support their behavior.  Everyone else has nothing to do with it. 

 

So, in this case of this old man being beaten to death, it isn't a race issue.  It is an issue with the individuals who committed the crime.  Just like I have nothing to do with George Zimmerman shooting Trayvon Martin, black people around the country have nothing to do with these hoodlums beating this old man to death.  We are masters of our own destiny.

[GoneBallistic]

You misunderstood what I was saying.  Anyone who stands behind Jesse Jackson while he speaks and does not leave in disgust is either racist, ignorant, deaf, on the payroll or all of the above.  What I'm talking about is just because JJ stands up there with a bunch of black people doesn't mean that all black people (as a race) are in line with him.  He doesn't speak for all black people.  Hell, I've watched a few militant anti-white videos on YouTube in which even black power extremists don't like Jesse Jackson and call him a race hustler.

 

What I was referring to is the repeated mantra of black people who don't speak out against the racism that exists in the poor black community are somehow responsible or complicit with what other black people do.  We need to get away from that thought.  The only people that matter in that scenario are those who commit the crimes, those who raised them to be little monsters and those who support their behavior.  Everyone else has nothing to do with it. 

 

So, in this case of this old man being beaten to death, it isn't a race issue.  It is an issue with the individuals who committed the crime.  Just like I have nothing to do with George Zimmerman shooting Trayvon Martin, black people around the country have nothing to do with these hoodlums beating this old man to death.  We are masters of our own destiny.

I couldn't agree more. I definitely did misunderstand.

[JAB]

We're talking about very different things. Jim Crow laws were self evident in their intent and executed by the state. A couple of black teenagers aren't. They could be perpetrating their crime for various reasons, not just because the victim happens to be white.

 

I am not just talking about 'a couple of Black teenagers'.  I am talking about inequality in the law.  The inequality comes when 'hate crime' laws are obviously intended to only be applied when the victim of a crime is a minority and the perpetrator is White or the victim is gay and the perpetrator straight.  Can you name one, single case where 'hate crime' laws have been applied to Black on White crime - even when race was clearly a factor? 

 

Further, when two Black teens jump an older, White man I am not buying that race wasn't a factor and that they could just as easily have jumped an older, Black man.  To me, that line of thinking basically insists on denying the very idea that Blacks could commit crimes with racist 'hate' as a motive and perpetuates the idea that only Whites can commit racist acts.  Besides, they didn't beat this elderly gentleman to death because they just liked him so, darned much.  Lacking any other, apparent motive, then - if stupid 'hate crimes' laws are to remain on the books - prosecutors should at least consider applying them to cases such as this.  To do otherwise results in inequality, meaning that if Sharpton and Jackson and all the other 'Rainbow Coalition' folks are truly interested in equality rather than just playing the race card when it suits them then they would be marching and protesting in these instances, too.  The fact that they aren't tells me that they have no, real interest in equality.

Edited August 27, 2013 by JAB

[TMF]

I am not just talking about 'a couple of Black teenagers'. I am talking about inequality in the law. The inequality comes when 'hate crime' laws are obviously intended to only be applied when the victim of a crime is a minority and the perpetrator is White or the victim is gay and the perpetrator straight. Can you name one, single case where 'hate crime' laws have been applied to Black on White crime - even when race was clearly a factor?

Further, when two Black teens jump an older, White man I am not buying that race wasn't a factor and that they could just as easily have jumped an older, Black man. To me, that line of thinking basically insists on denying the very idea that Blacks could commit crimes with racist 'hate' as a motive and perpetuates the idea that only Whites can commit racist acts. Besides, they didn't beat this elderly gentleman to death because they just liked him so, darned much. Lacking any other, apparent motive, then - if stupid 'hate crimes' laws are to remain on the books - prosecutors should at least consider applying them to cases such as this. To do otherwise results in inequality, meaning that if Sharpton and Jackson and all the other 'Rainbow Coalition' folks are truly interested in equality rather than just playing the race card when it suits them then they would be marching and protesting in these instances, too. The fact that they aren't tells me that they have no, real interest in equality.

I never argued about the inequity of the law or how it is prosecuted. In fact, if you read back to my very first post on the subject you'll see that I acknowledge the issue and don't agree with it.

The only thing I have argued against I this thread are folks who believe that black folks, as a whole, are partly responsible for the racist actions of other black people. They simply aren't. If it they were we would have to apply the same logic to white people. That is the only thing I've been arguing.

[Worriedman]

The only thing I have argued against I this thread are folks who believe that black folks, as a whole, are partly responsible for the racist actions of other black people.

 

They may not be responsible for the actions of other blacks, but if they do not speak out in opposition to those actions, they will be convicted of approval by their silence.

When a 13% demographic is responsible for 49.7% of all murders, 55.6% of all robbery, 40.3% of all weapons charges then at least the demographic as a whole needs to either damn the actions of the few, or admit to approval.

Somebody is going to have to start demonstrating against this senseless violence, it can either be done figuratively similar to Martin Luther King's acts against segregation, (they were non-violent, and they made a clear point of conscious), or, society will as a whole will grow tired of the results of non-action and choose another path.

 

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/persons-arrested/persons-arrested

 

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-43

 

http://www.infoplease.com/us/census/data/demographic.html

Edited August 27, 2013 by Worriedman

[TMF]

[quote name="Worriedman" post="1022327" timestamp="1377627479"] They may not be responsible for the actions of other blacks, but if they do not speak out in opposition to those actions, they will be convicted of approval by their silence. ][/quote] How in the hell do you know that? Because you don't see it enough on MSM? What is the appropriate amount? Do you need black people to approach you on the streets and tell you their opinions or apologize for other black people? This is an incredibly racist notion to suggest that all black people have a stake in the race game. What you are suggesting in your words there is that black people, who have ABSOLUTELY NOT A DAMN THING TO DO WITH OTHER BLACK PEOPLE, are required to speak out or their silence is approval? What in the fucking fuck are you talking about? Edited August 27, 2013 by TMF

[Links2k]

How in the hell do you know that? Because you don't see it enough on MSM? What is the appropriate amount? Do you need black people to approach you on the streets and tell you their opinions or apologize for other black people?

This is an incredibly racist notion to suggest that all black people have a stake in the race game. What you are suggesting in your words there is that black people, who have ABSOLUTELY NOT A DAMN THING TO DO WITH OTHER BLACK PEOPLE, are required to speak out or their silence is approval? What in the ####ing #### are you talking about?

Using some of these guys logic, white people should be walking the streets everyday apoligizing to blacks for slavery. It's just stupid. Unless their silence means they they still approve of slavery. Edited August 27, 2013 by LINKS2K

[Worriedman]

All I can tell you is the interface I have with numerous Black people who are my friends.  People I work with and who I am around a lot.  They are very concerned that the perception of the whole is that the entire group is supportive of the actions that we do see on the MSM.  

Being of mixed race myself, I get the personification of Native Americans as drunks and welfare goobers, some are, not all, on my Grandmother's death bed she would not sign document attesting to her lineage, she had "passed" her whole life and would not admit to society that she was "Indian" even then.

I live in both worlds, and I hear the invectives the "good 'ol boys" heap on those they consider to be guilty.  The Liberals are trying hard to instigate a division, and I still think that if solid citizens were to stand out in opposition to violence of the sort we are seeing, and yes, being amplified, it would make a difference in how the whole of society would perceive it.

 

[Worriedman]

I am the least racist person any one here knows.  I am however a realist, and my friends are realist. 

 

There is a push to divide going on, and yes the media is in on the deal.  I swear to God that I am talking with interested Black people who are very worried about the perception that is out there right now, that the leaders of the Black Community are the Jessie Jacksons and Sharptons, that and the perception that the baggie pants wearing faction is the mainstream, that is their concern and that blow back is going to occur.

 

Math being what it is, it has centered in the worried discussions as of late with those members of the Black community that I interface with.
 

I am not generalizing about race, I am simply stating facts, and repeating what I am seeing on various forums.  Personally would like to see a draw down in the heat regarding the whole issue, but like the Syria thing, I doubt that is in the offing.

[Links2k]

One of the big issues is that some people believe that Jackson and Sharpton are black leaders. Until you realize that they are nothing more than self serving profiteers you continue to provide them with a lucrative platform when you elevate them to the status of "Black Leaders".

Blacks pull out Sharton and Jackson when they want to make the most amount of noise that will give their voices an opportunity to be heard as in the Martin case. Other than that no one has a need for Jackson or Sharpton. I would imagine that both of them spend many hours searching for incidents to spin into racial crisis so that they can continue to line their pockets at the expense of the poor, ignorant black and white racist.

[Guest ThePunisher]

After 50 years since civil rights legislation, school integration, affirmative action, and hate crime laws, etc., if there are still racial tensions in our country it's because of the MSM, race baiters like J. Jackson and Al Sharpton, Black Caucus members of Congress, Black Coaches Association, other black designated groups that are allowed to form and yet white groups are disallowed to form into groups, the NCAAP, the democrat liberal agenda, and the messiah in the WH who stirs the race pot continually.

The white race is now the only group that can be discriminated against legally, and yet whites are expected to not stand up and speak out against double standards and white discrimination. The great racial healer in the WH has done more in the last four and half years to divide blacks against whites, and his remarks about certain racial events has exacerbated racial tensions instead of improving race relations. Obama the candidate promised to lead the country beyond racial divisions, but like everything he has done policy wise, he has been a racial divider instead of a racial healer.

The white people in our country the last 50 years have tried hard to make amends for past discriminations and wrongs against blacks. But when whites are expected to be discriminated against and held to double standards for past wrongs, then you will see racial division instead of racial healing, especially when we have a POTUS that promised to be post racial, but is the most racial.

[GoneBallistic]

I just read on BSnbc's website, (I know, total propaganda), that the murderers are stating that the 88 year old veteran of the Second World War was a dealer of crack cocaine...I don't really know what to say to that....

[Worriedman]

I just read on BSnbc's website, (I know, total propaganda), that the murderers are stating that the 88 year old veteran of the Second World War was a dealer of crack cocaine...I don't really know what to say to that....

 

About the same thing that I would about the defense attorney intimating that the mother of the baby shot in the stroller was in on the deal because she had taken out a $5K insurance policy at his birth.  Defense grasping at straws.

[TMF]

They may not be responsible for the actions of other blacks, but if they do not speak out in opposition to those actions, they will be convicted of approval by their silence.
 

 

How is this not a generalization?  Explain exactly what you mean by this statement ^^^^.  Then explain to me how if you woke up tomorrow and your skin was suddenly black, how would the actions of these two monsters spontaneously become YOUR responsibility to speak out against.  There are plenty of black people who condemn all whites as racists for what a few white people do, such as the story about the white guys raping the black woman, or perhaps the actions of the KKK.  Since every black person in the world hasn't heard your views on the subject, are they wrong for automatically assuming you condone those actions... I mean, they should if they're using your logic.  To them you are silent about it because they haven't heard you speak out.

 

Or maybe every black person should go up to each white person they see and immediately apologize for anything blacks have done to whites.  If that is what you think then you need to start apologizing to every black person for slavery.  It makes about the same sense.

 

What you're saying above is the exact same divisive crap that Jesse Jackson spews and the reason why there are percieved racial issues when there shouldn't be any.

 

I am not generalizing about race, I am simply stating facts, and repeating what I am seeing on various forums.  Personally would like to see a draw down in the heat regarding the whole issue, but like the Syria thing, I doubt that is in the offing.

Edited August 28, 2013 by TMF