piston AR, which one?

[TMF]

Crap, I realize I just hijacked this thing.

As for the OP, I used the LWRC M6A1 during a month long shooting course... Lots of rounds downrange. Great rifle, just real front heavy like most of them are. I've heard good things about the Adams Arms uppers, but have never used one myself.

[scoutfsu]

As it should be... except there should be a few more M16A4s issued as well.  None of the other guns presented so far represent a significant increase in capability, certainly nowhere near as much of an increase as to justify the gigantic logistical expense of switching. 

 

I have no problem with the M4.  I sure would love a DD RIS2 and maybe a geissele trigger though.  That would be far better money spent than throwing it away on "tests" and competitions.....or giving billions to the worthless Afghans.

[whitewolf001]

Crap, I realize I just hijacked this thing.
 

 

We would never.... :hijack:

[gomer pyle]

Whoops. Didnt mean to open a can of worms. I have been trying to read alot. I'm not against a DI gun, i just thought the pistons were cleaner, not sure if its needed or not. I did not realize they are so front heavy. I do want an ar based rifle, so the 556 is out. There are so many options out there it is hard to narrow it done. Every gun shop i go to recommends a piston rifle, thence my reason to enquire about them

[dcloudy777]

No worries, man, it's a discussion forum... we gotta have stuff to discuss. :up:

 

As an aside... which shops were recommending piston guns so hard?  And how many piston guns did they have in stock?  :popcorn:

[Spots]

Whoops. Didnt mean to open a can of worms. I have been trying to read alot. I'm not against a DI gun, i just thought the pistons were cleaner, not sure if its needed or not. I did not realize they are so front heavy. I do want an ar based rifle, so the 556 is out. There are so many options out there it is hard to narrow it done. Every gun shop i go to recommends a piston rifle, thence my reason to enquire about them

I would highly recommend you shoot some different rifles if you haven't yet. Buy what you shoot best and fits in your budget. A lot of people talk bad about the DI systems, but just as TMF said most of those people don't clean the weapons correctly or take care of them. And its not maintenance intensive. I clean all my firearms the same way, just like I did in the Marines, and I have yet to have an issue with a DI rifle that had anythiny to do with the di system.

Tapatalk ate my spelling.

[ted]

All BS aside the rifle that sonny has for sale is one fine clean rifle and it already has a brake on it . It is a tac driver I know he let me shoot it . Not one malfunction or jam or ftf , for the money that he is asking is one hell of a good price , put it this way you will prob never ever wear it out , far as weight it's not that mutch diff of weight on the front barrel that you would even notice , if you don't get it I prob will . I have a LWRCI M6A3 and wouldn't mind adding his sig piston to my collection , jest a heads up Sonny is a stand up guy . Piston ar-15 is the way to go I have over 9,000 rounds down mine not the first hiccup , and it is a tac driver and I really mean a tac driver if you don't believe me ask peace and sonny even after 9,000 rounds and hardly ever clean the bolt group , it jest runs clean .

[Guest sL1k]

I can vouch for Adams arms. You may want to look at huldra arms (it's a subsidiary company for Adams arms) they are priced -$200 -$100 off what Adams arms are. They actually sell them through a tractor supply store I think it's called fleet farms or fleet mill's.

I built a gas piston rifle mostly because I wanted one (I have tried to justify the need but can't lol). Less cleaning is a plus, the recoil seems to be softer. And it really tripped my uncle out that I could pull the bolt out and hand it to him after going through a mag. I kept the cost down by building one, if I did not build it I never would have bought a gas piston rifle due to the cost difference it is just not worth it to me.

[Sonny]

All BS aside the rifle that sonny has for sale is one fine clean rifle and it already has a brake on it . It is a tac driver I know he let me shoot it . Not one malfunction or jam or ftf , for the money that he is asking is one hell of a good price , put it this way you will prob never ever wear it out , far as weight it's not that mutch diff of weight on the front barrel that you would even notice , if you don't get it I prob will . I have a LWRCI M6A3 and wouldn't mind adding his sig piston to my collection , jest a heads up Sonny is a stand up guy . Piston ar-15 is the way to go I have over 9,000 rounds down mine not the first hiccup , and it is a tac driver and I really mean a tac driver if you don't believe me ask peace and sonny even after 9,000 rounds and hardly ever clean the bolt group , it jest runs clean .

Ted you are right the LWRC that you and i have are awsome rifles " goomer pile" you cant go wrong with them the only question is the price range - The LWRC's that some of us are talking about are much more expensive - around $2600 base but they are top of the line rifles- it all depends how much you are willing to spend my friend.

 

TED we have to go shoot again soon this beautifull weather is killing me.

[Slpeod]

Take a look at the LMT MRP piston set ups. Mine have been great, no issues whatsoever.

[scoutfsu]

Take a look at the LMT MRP piston set ups. Mine have been great, no issues whatsoever.

 

+1  I have 2 MRP's and I'm down to 5 barrels b/w them.  Fantastic rifles.

 

I would still look hard at why you want a piston AR.  They are marginally cleaner but noticeably front heavy.  Someone mentioned it above and its good advice (endorsed by SME's) about SBR, suppressed, auto.  You don't have to frantically GI clean ANY of your AR's.  Some people just can't get over that, especially prior military, but its gotten better over the years thanks to people like Pat Rogers.

 

As an aside, those gun shops are recommending piston rifles because they're more expensive and they're in the business of selling guns.  Most everyone here isn't selling you anything, just giving advice based on experience.

[Djay3]

Besides the extra front weight (which does not bother some), there is the issue of proprietary bolts and other parts.

If only one AR, there is a big advantage to the non-proprietary bolts and springs. So many part sources!
During the recent AR panic finding piston parts was a major headache for many.

[ted]

Besides the extra front weight (which does not bother some), there is the issue of proprietary bolts and other parts.
If only one AR, there is a big advantage to the non-proprietary bolts and springs. So many part sources!
During the recent AR panic finding piston parts was a major headache for many.

the bolt carrier are solid no top bolts to hold the di gas port to the bolt carrier witch I have seen brake a lot ,or come loose . you won't have that prob on a piston model , Farr as ar panic if I wanted any parts for my lwrc there was no prob getting them at all . Besides it does not take but 15 sec to change the upper to what ever I like . The lower is the same on 5.56 .223 AR . I have over 9,000 rounds on my LWRC have NOT replaced one part what so ever . Edited August 21, 2013 by ted

[RichardR]

Take it with a grain of salt. I'm being honest when I say that I've fired more rounds through my issued M4s than 99% of the military. I have never had a malfunction caused by anything other than magazine failure, bolt breakage or a manufactured malfunction. If the weapon is properly maintained it will fire more ammo than you can carry. I've put thousands of rounds through one in a single day without relubing. It will work.

The reason you see reports of widespread malfunction is due to operator error. I kid you not. Our military sucks when it comes to mentoring younger Servicemembers. For example, the story of Jessica Lynch's convoy has at least two of the weapons failing. I've seen more M16s fail than I can count. There is always a common denominator; no lube, and where there should be live there is dust... Lots of it. The problem is crappy NCOs not doing proper PCIs on their Soldiers. I'll use the M2 .50 cal as an example. It works great. I've used dozens of them over my military career. I've only come across one that had issues; it was a refurbish that was fresh. After a few thousand rounds it worked fine. All the rest worked so long as you knew how to properly head space and time it. Unfortunately, I see MOST convoys pull up to a test fire berm and experience multiple jams, because all they did was screw a barrel on, back off two and call it good. Then they call it a piece of 100 year old junk because it doesn't work. It does work. It's the operator that needs to be sent back to the assembly line.

I get a little emotional about this one, because I know the truth and it pisses me off. It makes me mad that there are so many piss poor Soldiers and NCOs out there. When I hear a Servicemember who complains about his M16 (if it was issued after 1970, or whenever they fixed the issue with the chamber and the ammo) it tells me they were a substandard Soldier that did not properly maintain his equipment.

I concure completely, well said TMF.

[Peace]

the bolt carrier are solid no top bolts to hold the di gas port to the bolt carrier witch I have seen brake a lot ,or come loose . you won't have that prob on a piston model , Farr as ar panic if I wanted any parts for my lwrc there was no prob getting them at all . Besides it does not take but 15 sec to change the upper to what ever I like . The lower is the same on 5.56 .223 AR . I have over 9,000 rounds on my LWRC have NOT replaced one part what so ever .

 

I second this.  I always keep common spares on hand, but during the whole shortage or rifle debacle, I was able to speak with and order any part I wanted from LWRCI - as long as I didn't want it cerakoted. :)   My experience with them has been exceptional.  

 

Of note, a piston AR and a purpose-built piston design in an AR can be two different things.

[scoutfsu]

the bolt carrier are solid no top bolts to hold the di gas port to the bolt carrier witch I have seen brake a lot ,or come loose . you won't have that prob on a piston model , Farr as ar panic if I wanted any parts for my lwrc there was no prob getting them at all . Besides it does not take but 15 sec to change the upper to what ever I like . The lower is the same on 5.56 .223 AR . I have over 9,000 rounds on my LWRC have NOT replaced one part what so ever .

 

 

I'll agree that LWRCi's are nice but I'm going to disagree with your first statement.  Just how many (reputably built weapons) gas key's have you seen break or come loose?  The same with gas tubes and correctly aligned ports.  I've seen one and it was a shoddy home build while I was in El Paso. 

 

If you're talking piston, you also need to watch op rod breakage and carrier tilt.  Each system has its own little quirks.

[ted]

Far as the gas key me personally have never seen a key broken , me personally have seen 3 loose one being a AR I had before . Now that being said I personally have never ever had a rod breakage or spring problem and that's with over 9,000 rounds down her not one FTF or FTE at all . My other two AR-15 that I use to own I can't say that about them , Jest my experience . Now far as the bolt carrier tilt LWRC does not have that problem because of there design . And yes you are correct Each system does have its own little quirks , for me I jest like not haveing to clean all the Crud out of my bolt and carrier and upper housing every time I go to the range .

[scoutfsu]

Lol, Ted.......don't clean your bolt everytime you shoot :up:   Carbon+lube = good to go.  I generally clean every couple thousand rounds...and that's mostly from guilt.

[TMF]

Lol, Ted.......don't clean your bolt everytime you shoot :up: Carbon+lube = good to go. I generally clean every couple thousand rounds...and that's mostly from guilt.

It's called indoctrination.

I get the same way even though I know it's irrational. In the Army there's always the fear that someone is gonna stick their finger in your dirty chamber and make you look like a sh**bag, even though it has nothing to do with the operation of the weapon.

[scoutfsu]

HAHAHAHA YES!!!  You should see my M4 right now.  Dirty but lubed.....and I KNOW it will work when I need it to.  About to go do a little shooting.  'Night gents.

[Spots]

It's called indoctrination.

I get the same way even though I know it's irrational. In the Army there's always the fear that someone is gonna stick their finger in your dirty chamber and make you look like a sh**bag, even though it has nothing to do with the operation of the weapon.

I had nightmares about that right after boot camp and Mct. It was like a greatest fear that a Drill Instructor or Combat Instructor would snatch up your weapon and check it and their finger have carbon on it. I still to thiw day get twitchy if I'm looking at an AR or any firearm really, and notice it isn't clean. Even with thenknowledge that it doesn't affect the damn things.

Tapatalk ate my spelling.

[MacGyver]

Piston based operating systems were nothing new when Eugene Stoner designed the platform.  He could have gone that route, and instead chose direct impingement.  As has been mentioned in this thread, DI systems are significantly lighter with several fewer moving parts.  As an engineer, I like fewer moving (potentially breaking) parts - especially when you're fielding them for battle. 

 

DI systems are dirtier, but one good part about the military is being able to set a standard for maintenance - largely making the issue moot.  As TMF said above, there are a lot of soldiers out there today along with their NCOs who may not be as strict as they need to be about cleaning and maintenance and they experience the failures and stoppages that go along with that.  A piston operating system wouldn't solve that problem.  It would compound it.  If they can't maintain a DI system, they're not going to maintain a piston system either.

 

What does this have to do with you as an average shooter?  Not a thing.  Lube is king in the AR platform, and as long as you lube the rifle appropriately and occasionally clean it responsibly, it'll do everything you ask of it. 

 

I'd encourage you to shoot both platforms.  See what you like.  For most of us, it's not a matter of "what do I need," it's a matter of "what do I want."  Figure out what qualities you're looking for, and that'll help drive your decision.

[whitewolf001]

Piston based operating systems were nothing new when Eugene Stoner designed the platform.  He could have gone that route, and instead chose direct impingement.  As has been mentioned in this thread, DI systems are significantly lighter with several fewer moving parts.  As an engineer, I like fewer moving (potentially breaking) parts - especially when you're fielding them for battle. 

 

DI systems are dirtier, but one good part about the military is being able to set a standard for maintenance - largely making the issue moot.  As TMF said above, there are a lot of soldiers out there today along with their NCOs who may not be as strict as they need to be about cleaning and maintenance and they experience the failures and stoppages that go along with that.  A piston operating system wouldn't solve that problem.  It would compound it.  If they can't maintain a DI system, they're not going to maintain a piston system either.

 

What does this have to do with you as an average shooter?  Not a thing.  Lube is king in the AR platform, and as long as you lube the rifle appropriately and occasionally clean it responsibly, it'll do everything you ask of it. 

 

I'd encourage you to shoot both platforms.  See what you like.  For most of us, it's not a matter of "what do I need," it's a matter of "what do I want."  Figure out what qualities you're looking for, and that'll help drive your decision.

 

Truth, I mean look at the Filthy-14.

 

"As of this writing, EAG students have 31,165 rounds downrange through Filthy 14. During this evaluation period, it was cleaned once (as in one time), at 26,245 rounds. The end result is that Rack #14 was—and remains—filthy. It is filthy because it has been shot at class. Only at class. Every round that has gone down that barrel has been fired at class, with an average of approximately 1,300 rounds every three days. It has been lubed generously with Slip 2000 Enhanced Weapons Lube (EWL).

The combination of carbon and lube create (wait for it)…filth. It is so dirty that, while sitting in the rifle rack, it is almost a biohazard. The filth oozes out and contaminates other carbines adjacent to it.

But it is still shooting—and shooting well.

Rack #14 is a 16-inch Bravo Company Mid Length Carbine—mid length meaning that the gas system is two inches longer than the standard carbine gas system. This permits the use of a nine-inch rail with the standard front sight base. Use of a clamp on the front sight will permit a longer rail to be used.

The longer rail is necessary to accommodate some shooting styles, as well as to provide additional rail estate for the various white lights and IR lasers required to kill bad guys at night.

Subjectively, the mid length system has a softer recoil impulse.

The lower receiver is a Bravo Company USA M4A1, one of very few in circulation. It has a TangoDown BG-16 Pistol Grip. An LMT Sloping Cheekweld Stock (aka the Crane Stock) rides on the milspec receiver extension, as does a TangoDown PR-4 Sling Mount.

The upper is a BCM item, with a milspec 16.1”, 1:7 twist barrel. The barrel steel is chrome moly vanadium (CMV) and certified under milspec Mil-B-11595E.

The BCM bolt is machined from milspec Carpenter 158® gun quality steel, heat-treated per milspec, and then shot peened per Mil-S-13165. Once completed, each bolt is fired with a high-pressure test (HPT) cartridge and then magnetic particle inspected (MPI) in accordance with ASTM E1444.

The handguard is a LaRue 15-9, the nine-inch model to allow full use of the available rail estate.

We have a TangoDown BGV-MK46K Stubby Vertical Foregrip. We use TangoDown BP-4 Rail Panels.

The primary sight is an Aimpoint T1 in a LaRue 660 Mount. The T1 is still on the same set of batteries, and it has never been shut off. The back-up sight is the Magpul MBUS and the sling is the Viking Tactics VTAC.

This is a normal configuration for our guns, although stocks (Magpul CTR, Vltor I-Mod), BUIS (Troy), and day optic (Aimpoint M4s) may be substituted."

 

Edited August 22, 2013 by whitewolf001

[TMF]

Ahhhhh! Looking at that picture makes me wanna make someone push the earth! Can't..... fight..... indoctrination.....

[MacGyver]

Clean that dude up and I bet it is smooth...