CCW, Need to use the same gun?

[Guest tdoccrossvilletn]

Is it true that with an hcp in TN that you can carry long guns in your vehicle with ammo in the magazines but not one in the chamber? Someone told me that and I don't believe it.



Sent from my mind using ninja telepathy.

It is true that you can.

Awesome!

Sent from my mind using ninja telepathy.

[Guest sL1k]

Here is the code that covers it.

39.17.1307


(For permit holders )
(e) (1) It is an exception to the application of subsection (a) that a person authorized to carry a handgun pursuant to § 39-17-1351 is transporting a rifle or shotgun in or on a privately-owned motor vehicle and the rifle or shotgun does not have ammunition in the chamber. However, the person does not violate this section by inserting ammunition into the chamber if the ammunition is inserted for purposes of justifiable self-defense pursuant to § 39-11-611 or § 39-11-612.


(For non permit holders)
(2) It is an exception to the application of subsection (a) that a person who is not authorized to possess a handgun pursuant to § 39-17-1351 is transporting a rifle or shotgun in or on a privately-owned motor vehicle and the rifle or shotgun does not have ammunition in the chamber or cylinder, and no clip or magazine containing ammunition is inserted in the rifle or shotgun or is in close proximity to both the weapon and any person.

[A.J. Holst]

The "pro" side to using your actual carry gun is that it is an extra layer of protection in a court case. It would show that you were able to qualify with the gun you actually carry which COULD be a good thing later on if anything goes to court.

 

If you use a .22 target pistol to qualify with yet you go about carrying a .44 snubby it MIGHT be argued against you that you were reckless and carried a gun you had not proven you could handle...is it ridiculous...yes...but sometimes courtroom arguments ARE ridiculous....now that argument is most likely to come up if you hit something you did not intend to hit....but honestly...if someone can't pass a qualification as simple as the TN HCP test WITH their carry gun...then they might not need to be carrying THAT particular gun. 

 

My brother interned for a federal judge while in law school. In many circumstances, the attorneys advised the jury, "Folks, this is not like CSI, SVU, or Law and Order. It is NOT what you see on TV"

[chances R]

For the benefit of the OP (and everyone else I guess)....Hopefully, if you ever have to use deadly force you won't be charged but you might be even if you were totally justified in your actions and did everything exactly correct.  So, don't just be prepared to defend yourself, be prepared for the potential aftermath as well.

 

Yeah,...........does the name "Zimmerman"  ring any bells ?!?

[Fallguy]

At one time the type weapon you use was recorded on the class form and the law did mention you could take just the range portion again with a different firearm.

 

However the has changed no and there is absolutely no firearm information (Make, Caliber, Ser# etc...) recorded on the form.  So not sure how the they could prove what type weapon you took the class (purposely didn't say 'qualify') with these days.

[Dolomite_supafly]

 

First Tennessee does not have a CCW license, we have a HCP, handgun carry permit, you can legally carry open or concealed at your discretion once you have obtained your HCP.

  

Second, no you can use any handgun to qualify and once you are qualified you can carry any handgun.  If a range in TN is offering a CCW qualification separate from the standard HCP safety course it does not in any way affect your right to legally carry a weapon concealed or open, it is just a local/unofficial class.

 

I could see some potential benefit in the class teaching methods of concealment and drawing from concealment, but don't feel as if you legally have to take it.

 

Ok, what is this and who is trying to bilk more money from people?

[JAB]

At one time the type weapon you use was recorded on the class form and the law did mention you could take just the range portion again with a different firearm.

 

However the has changed no and there is absolutely no firearm information (Make, Caliber, Ser# etc...) recorded on the form.  So not sure how the they could prove what type weapon you took the class (purposely didn't say 'qualify') with these days.

 

For a short time (IIRC, it was a very short time) not only did the make/model/caliber have to be recorded by the instructor but I'm thinking even the serial number of the firearm used.  I seem to remember people discussing it on here when the serial number requirement was put into place and, again, when that requirement was removed.  I took the qualification class in the Summer of 2008 (the actual issue date of my original permit was in August of 2008) and that was during the short time that I believe the instructor was required to record the serial number.  Of course, I have slept since then so it might have just been the make/model he was required to record (although I am pretty sure on the serial number thing, too.)  The instructor was also required to keep the target (I used a cell phone camera to get a couple of pics of it, though.)

[JAB]

I understand what you are saying. I myself do not carry the same Glock 27 that I used to qualify with 16 years ago.....the point is that no one can argue that I am not "capable" with the Glock 17 I am currently carrying because I "only" qualified with a .22. 

 

Again, not disputing you, just curious as to how much of a factor that might really be.  Do you know of a case where this issue has come up?  Not being all that familiar with courtroom goings-on, I would think that - unless you somehow got a jury comprised of gun guys/gals - many average jurors would see a .22 and think 'gun', then see a 9mm and think 'gun' and then see a .357 and think 'gun'.  I would further think that those, same jurors would figure that if you were a good enough shot to qualify with one gun then you are probably a good enough shot to qualify with any/every gun (which you and I know may not the case but we are 'gun guys'.)

Edited August 16, 2013 by JAB

[Fallguy]

For a short time (IIRC, it was a very short time) not only did the make/model/caliber have to be recorded by the instructor but I'm thinking even the serial number of the firearm used.  I seem to remember people discussing it on here when the serial number requirement was put into place and, again, when that requirement was removed.  I took the qualification class in the Summer of 2008 (the actual issue date of my original permit was in August of 2008) and that was during the short time that I believe the instructor was required to record the serial number.  Of course, I have slept since then so it might have just been the make/model he was required to record (although I am pretty sure on the serial number thing, too.)  The instructor was also required to keep the target (I used a cell phone camera to get a couple of pics of it, though.)

 

Yeah, I don't remember the exact dates or how long the instructor is supposed to keep the records, but the fact I took the class with one weapon and now carry a different one has really never concerned me in the least.

[JAB]

Yeah, I don't remember the exact dates or how long the instructor is supposed to keep the records, but the fact I took the class with one weapon and now carry a different one has really never concerned me in the least.

 

Me, either, really.  I will say, though, that I went back to the same range the next week and ran through the same 'course of fire' as what we did in the class with the P11 to make sure that I 'could' have passed with it (and, although obviously didn't do quite as well as with the .22, would have easily passed.)  Of course, there is no, official record of that.

[Guest The Itis]

Care to share what the shooting requirements are? Is it all center-of-bad-guy-silhouette type stuff or what

[ted]

Care to share what the shooting requirements are? Is it all center-of-bad-guy-silhouette type stuff or what

here ya go all you want to know on the tn. Gov web site . http://www.tn.gov/safety/handgunmain.shtml and http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/tennessee.pdf Edited August 17, 2013 by ted

[Oh Shoot]

here ya go all you want to know on the tn. Gov web site . http://www.tn.gov/safety/handgunmain.shtml and http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/tennessee.pdf

 

The exact shooting range qualification has never been onsite there, unless there's a new addition I didn't see.

 

It used to be 12 rounds each at 3,7,15 yards, and 12 at instructor's discretion at B-27 target (24x45") 70% hits in circled area, though apparently some instructors counted anything on paper at all.

 

 

 

It has changed some now, with smaller target/shorter distance, scoring is slightly different, but pretty much same thing in essence.

 

In short, it's a piece of cake unless you've never shot a handgun before, and vast majority can pass even if they haven't.

 

- OS

Edited August 17, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[JAB]

The exact shooting range qualification has never been onsite there, unless there's a new addition I didn't see.

 

It used to be 12 rounds each at 3,7,15 yards, and 12 at instructor's discretion at B-27 target (24x45") 70% hits in circled area, though apparently some instructors counted anything on paper at all.

 

 

 

It has changed some now, with smaller target/shorter distance, scoring is slightly different, but pretty much same thing in essence.

 

In short, it's a piece of cake unless you've never shot a handgun before, and vast majority can pass even if they haven't.

 

- OS

 

In my class, anything 'in the black' counted.  It didn't have to be in the circle areas but it did have to be somewhere in the silhouette.  Outside the silhouette but still on (white) paper didn't count.

 

I remember reading in other threads on the subject, on TGO, that some folks had instructors who wouldn't count anything outside the X rings.  My understanding is that, at least in the past, instructors had to see that their students met at least the TN requirements but the instructor could have additional requirements on top of that.

 

That is why I recommend, if possible, finding out the requirements the specific instructor/range has for qualifying.  Those classes cost what, now?  $65?  $75? More?  Even when they were $50 as when I took the class,  If I were told that a particular instructor would only accept X ring hits for qualification I would find a different place/instructor from whom to take the class.

[Guest The Itis]

Very good info, thanks.

[JWKilgore]

I'm going to mention one thing about qualifying with a "J-frame" sized revolver because that's exactly what I did. You have to shoot 6-round volleys, but a .38 Special J-Frame only holds 5 rounds. So you have to shoot 5, dump the shells and load 1, then shoot 1, dump again and reload fully to wait for the next round. You will spend far more time manipulating the gun that the other guys on the line. The same thing would affect you if you qualify with a subcompact semi-auto with less than 6 round capacity.

 

If I were to do it again, I would use my 22 for no other reason that the bullets are so much cheaper.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

A layer of protection against what?

 

If you miss your intended target and something not intended and get sued, it isn't going to matter what gun you qualified with.  You're screwed.

If you hit your intended target in a justified shooting and don't hit anything unintended, it isn't going to matter what gun you qualified with.

 

And the possible civil case later? The extra layer of protection is simply that...an extra precaution you take now so that the other side cannot make that specific argument because you already have that base covered. A jury in a civil case MAY look at the subcompact .45 you carried vs the .22 target pistol you qualified with and say you missed the BG an dhit the bystander because you were reckless and were carrying a "powerful gun"  you were not even "qualified" to carry...I know it may sound ridiculous....but that can be reality sometimes.

 

George Zimmerman hit his target in a JUSTIFIED SHOOTING...would you like to trade places with him for the last 2 years? Do a google search for "Larry Hickey". His was a justified shooting....yet he spent a hellish 2 years before it was all over. And though Zimmerman was eventually acquitted,  going into it we ALL thought he might still go to jail. Things are not ALWAYS "cut and dried" self defense and even if it IS....just like Zimmerman, you might find yourself wishing you had every POSSIBLE base covered if it goes to trial. Also look at Harold Fish and how the KIND of gun and ammo you use can be used against you sometimes. His conviction was not BECAUSE of the gun, but they still brought it up and he his attorneys had to deal with it. Again, we do not control what they will try to argue...we can just try to prepare for it in advance. Something as simple as qualifying  with an actual carry gun vs a .22 target pistol seems a pretty simple thing to eliminate ONE possible argument later.

 

But apparently you know more than the attorneys and expert witnesses who DO THIS FOR A LIVING. As for me , it does not effect me in the least what gun you or anyone else uses to qualify with. I merely passed on some info that someone out there who was reading along might appreciate from someone who has been in the training industry for a while. But as I said , whether anyone chooses to take advice I give or not will not effect ME if THEY go to court for a shooting they are involved in.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Oh Shoot]

And the possible civil case later? The extra layer of protection is simply that...an extra precaution you take now so that the other side cannot make that specific argument because you already have that base covered. A jury in a civil case MAY look at the subcompact .45 you carried vs the .22 target pistol you qualified with and say you missed the BG an dhit the bystander because you were reckless and were carrying a "powerful gun"  you were not even "qualified" to carry...I know it may sound ridiculous....but that can be reality sometimes.

 

Well, anything and everything might be on the table. Even assuming you hit only the bad guy, being a trainer, how do you dismiss the likely prosecution tactic that someone who has lots of self defense firearm training shows an obsessive "commando" bent, just looking for a chance to use it?

 

- OS

[Cruel Hand Luke]

The way you'd say that someone who went to driving school was learning to be a safer driver. Or how police receive training regularly. The same criminals they train to apprehend are the ones that they are apprehending for robbing,raping or killing us..... "being better prepared is a bad thing " is going to be a tough arguement for the other side to win if your attorney has half a clue.

 

EVERYTHING can be answered. And it is largely a matter of WHOSE expert witnesses are believed by the jury.....and a matter of limiting the possibility of those arguments before hand. 

Edited August 19, 2013 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Guest The Itis]

Speaking of driving, kind of sounds like trying to argue that you can only drive the car you used for the road test, right? lol

Heck that right there is a good enough common sense counter argument for a jury should it ever get that far.

[Fallguy]

The way you'd say that someone who went to driving school was learning to be a safer driver. Or how police receive training regularly. The same criminals they train to apprehend are the ones that they are apprehending for robbing,raping or killing us..... "being better prepared is a bad thing " is going to be a tough arguement for the other side to win if your attorney has half a clue.

 

EVERYTHING can be answered. And it is largely a matter of WHOSE expert witnesses are believed by the jury.....and a matter of limiting the possibility of those arguments before hand. 

 

Additional training and improving your skills are fine, but I just don't see how it would matter for someone applying for their HCP now? There is no record of the firearm you used in class. If you go to the range on your own later, I don't often go to formal ranges, but they don't keep up with the weapon you bring when you go to shoot do they?  But even if they did, they don't keep up with how well you did surely.

[c.a.willard]

Seems to me that paying for an additional qualification course would only be wasting money that could be better spent on actual training.   Sure a prosecutor could argue that you didn't qualify with that weapon, I don't see that being a effective argument as long as you practiced ever with your carry gun especially with the qualification requirements being so lax.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Additional training and improving your skills are fine, but I just don't see how it would matter for someone applying for their HCP now? There is no record of the firearm you used in class. If you go to the range on your own later, I don't often go to formal ranges, but they don't keep up with the weapon you bring when you go to shoot do they?  But even if they did, they don't keep up with how well you did surely.

True...it really does not matter for someone who is just now applying because they no longer record what gun you used in the HCP class ...so this really is just an academic exercise. 

[JAB]

Or how police receive training regularly.

 

And then the prosecuting attorney says, "So, then, you 'need' all of that training because police have extensive training?  But you are not a police officer, are you?  No, you are a private citizen.  So, sir, do you fancy yourself some sort of 'independent law enforcement'?  Is that why you need all that training?  Hmmm...isn't there another name for such an 'independent law enforcement'?  Isn't that name, 'vigilante'?"

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk or go tit for tat but isn't the belief that such an argument will be used just as reasonable?

 

Of course, as you said, it sounds like this is all pretty much just a mental exercise as the make/model of the gun is no longer recorded and I have already taken the class and qualified with the 22A.

Edited August 19, 2013 by JAB

[Guest nra37922]

I would always recommend not using reloads for the same reason.  The prosecution is going to throw up everything in order to fry you so why help their case?  Sure its bogus BS but remember who makes up the jury..."ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defendant wasn't even using commercial ammunition.  NO, not satisfied with the destructive and deadly capability of what was readily available he had to make up his own."  Top that off with "AND he wasn't even carrying the type of handgun he qualified with,  NO he qualified with the miniscule .22 and shot the victim with a .45"  Of course a good defending attorney can rip holes in this but.....