1 drop of venom vs. cup of blood

[Sam1]

This is crazy, within a couple of seconds the one drop of venom coagulates the entire cup of blood into a blob.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WvnjCkLbvY

 

Would this be a scenario where you should just apply a tourniquet instantly ad kiss your limb goodbye or just hope to get to the hospital in time and it wouldn't be as bad if it is spread out throughout your body?

[Peace]

In the larger blood vessels, blood moves very, very fast.  not so much in capillaries.   ... so, that's a tough one.  

[ted]

Got this off of one of my friends Facebook page snakes are out jest beware . His advise and a good one . Chad just got out of the hospital today, this happen Sunday in Montgomery County Alabama:

To all my friends who hunt, camp, or spend time in the woods:

after being struck by a 6ft timber rattler today while turkey hunting. The snake bit through my hunting pants and Muck Boots (I usually wear snake boots when turkey hunting, but could not locate them this morning). The initial bite felt like being hit in the calf by a baseball bat at full swing followed by excruciating pain radiating out from the bite wounds. Fortunately, I carry a snake bite extractor kit in my turkey vest, and was able to remove the majority (I guestimated 3-4 cups) of the venom contaminated blood. Following the instructions from the kit, I kept my heart rate down as best I could, and slowly limped the 200 yds to my vehicle, and was able to drive myself to the hospital which, thank the good Lord, was about 20 min away. Once there, I was administered the anti-venom, antibiotics, ect. The ER Doc told me that, based on the distance between the two fang punctures and their diameter and depth, if I had not used the venom extractor kit, I would have died before I ever made it to my truck. So, if you do not already own one, I want you to go to a sporting goods store and purchase a venom extractor kit ASAP. I bought mine at academy and it was around $10.00. I would urge you to buy a couple. Put one in each vehicle in your household, in your hunting or hiking pack, and especially your B.O.B. ect,,,,they are about the size of a bar of soap and can literally save your life or someone you love. Please don't blow this off. Do it tomorrow!!!!
I am spending one night (hopefully) in the hospital, and may require some minor surgery to remove any damaged tissue from the poison, but that is a far cry from losing my leg or passing through the pearly gates!!!!

Respectfully, Your Friend,
Chad Cross

[DaveS]

Got this off of one of my friends Facebook page snakes are out jest beware . His advise and a good one . Chad just got out of the hospital today, this happen Sunday in Montgomery County Alabama:

To all my friends who hunt, camp, or spend time in the woods:

after being struck by a 6ft timber rattler today while turkey hunting. The snake bit through my hunting pants and Muck Boots (I usually wear snake boots when turkey hunting, but could not locate them this morning). The initial bite felt like being hit in the calf by a baseball bat at full swing followed by excruciating pain radiating out from the bite wounds. Fortunately, I carry a snake bite extractor kit in my turkey vest, and was able to remove the majority (I guestimated 3-4 cups) of the venom contaminated blood. Following the instructions from the kit, I kept my heart rate down as best I could, and slowly limped the 200 yds to my vehicle, and was able to drive myself to the hospital which, thank the good Lord, was about 20 min away. Once there, I was administered the anti-venom, antibiotics, ect. The ER Doc told me that, based on the distance between the two fang punctures and their diameter and depth, if I had not used the venom extractor kit, I would have died before I ever made it to my truck. So, if you do not already own one, I want you to go to a sporting goods store and purchase a venom extractor kit ASAP. I bought mine at academy and it was around $10.00. I would urge you to buy a couple. Put one in each vehicle in your household, in your hunting or hiking pack, and especially your B.O.B. ect,,,,they are about the size of a bar of soap and can literally save your life or someone you love. Please don't blow this off. Do it tomorrow!!!!
I am spending one night (hopefully) in the hospital, and may require some minor surgery to remove any damaged tissue from the poison, but that is a far cry from losing my leg or passing through the pearly gates!!!!

Respectfully, Your Friend,
Chad Cross

Good sound advice!

 

DaveS

[DaveS]

I just read a news story yesterday, where this lady got bit by a Copperhead and her "out of pocket" expense from the hospital bill 53,000.00  Her total bit was $87,000.00  The anti venom was $42,000.00 per dose. INSANE!!! A very expensive accident!

 

DaveS

[knewcomb]

So is this from any rattler or just the timber version? Never leaving my house again l.

[BryanP]

So is this from any rattler or just the timber version? Never leaving my house again l.

 

Rattlesnake bites are rarely fatal.  A quick search tells me that out of 7 to 8000 reported rattlesnake bites in the US every year, there are roughly 5 fatalities.  That's pretty good odds.

 

The video in the OP shows a Russell's Viper from India.  They are rather more deadly.

[gunwhatgun]

God, I hate snakes. Is there any word as to what type of extractor system that person used, sounds like it worked very well.

[E4 No More]

Many years ago I read that the medical profession was advising NOT to use snakebite kits because they tend to do more damage than good. Is that still the case?

[ted]

God, I hate snakes. Is there any word as to what type of extractor system that person used, sounds like it worked very well.

it would have to be one of theses by what he was saying , I have one like the right side http://www.academy.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/TopNavCatalogSearch?N=0&Ntt=venom+extractor+kit&Ntk=All&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&storeId=10151&langId=-1&catalogId=10051

[2.ooohhh]

Many years ago I read that the medical profession was advising NOT to use snakebite kits because they tend to do more damage than good. Is that still the case?

Older snakebite kits included a razor blade and relied on the victim bleeding and with very slight suction to expel the venom.(didn't work out very well) newer kits such as the sawyer extractor use suction at the point of the bite to extract venom which can be relatively effective if used VERY soon after the bite though neither are replacement for remaining calm and keeping the victim's heart rate down while getting them to a healthcare facility for a dose of anti-venom.

 

OId style Snakebite kit

 

 

Newer style extractor based kit

Edited August 13, 2013 by 2.ooohhh

[ted]

Older snakebite kits included a razor blade and relied on the victim bleeding and with very slight suction to expel the venom.(didn't work out very well) newer kits such as the sawyer extractor use suction at the point of the bite to extract venom which can be relatively effective if used VERY soon after the bite though neither are replacement for remaining calm and keeping the victim's heart rate down while getting them to a healthcare facility for a dose of anti-venom.
 
OId style Snakebite kit
 

 
Newer style extractor based kit

I need to update mine then I think I'll order 2 one for my carry and also keep one in the house thanks

[gunwhatgun]

Thanks for the link. I think I am going to pick up at least two of the extractor kits.

[JAB]

People are constantly pointing out that rattlesnake bites are usually 'survivable'.  People also seem to act as if getting bitten by a copperhead is more or less equivalent to a serious bee sting.  That is not, necessarily, the case.

 

I used to work with a lady who was bitten on the arm by a copperhead while she was working in her garden.  She went to the hospital but her arm still turned blue/black and swelled to more than twice it's normal size.  At first, doctors told her there was a good chance she would lose the arm.  Even after the threat of limb loss was over, they told her that it would take up to a year to regain full use of the arm and that the arm would likely never be the same.

 

So, yeah, the bite was 'survivable' but 'survivable' doesn't take into account a whole lot of pain, suffering, nerve damage, tissue damage and even possible limb loss.

Edited August 13, 2013 by JAB

[Dolomite`s Breezy]

YUCK... We just had a timber rattler in front of the house....

 

I am buying one of those.. I am really allergic to beestings.. I can imagine what a bit would do to me.. I would prolly die of a heart attack before anything else.

 

My sisters ex husband was a surveyor and he took his teenage son out for a  job and this boy got bit ..ended up in the hospital for a week or so.. was touch and go at the beginning plus he got compartment syndrome also.. nasty nasty stuff

[Guest TankerHC]

Got this off of one of my friends Facebook page snakes are out jest beware . His advise and a good one . Chad just got out of the hospital today, this happen Sunday in Montgomery County Alabama:

To all my friends who hunt, camp, or spend time in the woods:

after being struck by a 6ft timber rattler today while turkey hunting. The snake bit through my hunting pants and Muck Boots (I usually wear snake boots when turkey hunting, but could not locate them this morning). The initial bite felt like being hit in the calf by a baseball bat at full swing followed by excruciating pain radiating out from the bite wounds. Fortunately, I carry a snake bite extractor kit in my turkey vest, and was able to remove the majority (I guestimated 3-4 cups) of the venom contaminated blood. Following the instructions from the kit, I kept my heart rate down as best I could, and slowly limped the 200 yds to my vehicle, and was able to drive myself to the hospital which, thank the good Lord, was about 20 min away. Once there, I was administered the anti-venom, antibiotics, ect. The ER Doc told me that, based on the distance between the two fang punctures and their diameter and depth, if I had not used the venom extractor kit, I would have died before I ever made it to my truck. So, if you do not already own one, I want you to go to a sporting goods store and purchase a venom extractor kit ASAP. I bought mine at academy and it was around $10.00. I would urge you to buy a couple. Put one in each vehicle in your household, in your hunting or hiking pack, and especially your B.O.B. ect,,,,they are about the size of a bar of soap and can literally save your life or someone you love. Please don't blow this off. Do it tomorrow!!!!
I am spending one night (hopefully) in the hospital, and may require some minor surgery to remove any damaged tissue from the poison, but that is a far cry from losing my leg or passing through the pearly gates!!!!

Respectfully, Your Friend,
Chad Cross

 

Im going tomorrow and buy 4, one for each vehicle. Thanks

Edited August 13, 2013 by TankerHC

[~48_South~]

I just read a news story yesterday, where this lady got bit by a Copperhead and her "out of pocket" expense from the hospital bill 53,000.00  Her total bit was $87,000.00  The anti venom was $42,000.00 per dose. INSANE!!! A very expensive accident!

 

DaveS

 

Ive read stories like this as well funny thing is the same drug from the same manufacturer is sold in Mexico for $100 a dose and even in the US anti venom is typically sold to hospitals for around $4,000 a dose but when asked how much they charge a patient for the dose figures rose to 2-3 times that amount on average and some reported as high as $40,000+ a dose. 

[2.ooohhh]

Ive read stories like this as well funny thing is the same drug from the same manufacturer is sold in Mexico for $100 a dose and even in the US anti venom is typically sold to hospitals for around $4,000 a dose but when asked how much they charge a patient for the dose figures rose to 2-3 times that amount on average and some reported as high as $40,000+ a dose. 

 

It takes 9-22 administered vials of CroFab to treat a snakebite, they are typically administered with a large dose (6/12/18 vials) up front then 2 vials at a time on 6 hour intervals out to 18 hours. 

 

It takes 30-60 min to prepare each dose before it can be administered since it is stored in a dry state to preserve efficacy. 

All the patient generally sees is a 250ml bag being brought out and added to the IV stand with a sticker on it so they see it as a single dose, while in the pharmacy there are likely 18-20 now empty vials of anti-venom on the way to the trashcan used to prepare that single "dose". Depending on the bite the patient may only initially require 6 vials to overpower the venom, unfortunately much more had to be reconstituted to prepare for the worst(some bites require the full 18 vials). It's only good to administer for 4 hours once mixed so often it is wasted. It's priced to the center on a per package basis, each package is 2 vials @ just under $4k.

 

 

 

Going with that the initial dose would be $36k in anti-venom alone with a follow up of $4k every six hours out to 18. Not hard to see where the $42k in anti-venom cost came from but it should have been referred to as a single course of the treatment rather than a "dose" since it is administered with 4 doses over 24 hours from initial presentation.

[whitewolf001]

It takes 9-22 administered vials of CroFab to treat a snakebite, they are typically administered with a large dose (6/12/18 vials) up front then 2 vials at a time on 6 hour intervals out to 18 hours. 

 

It takes 30-60 min to prepare each dose before it can be administered since it is stored in a dry state to preserve efficacy. 

All the patient generally sees is a 250ml bag being brought out and added to the IV stand with a sticker on it so they see it as a single dose, while in the pharmacy there are likely 18-20 now empty vials of anti-venom on the way to the trashcan used to prepare that single "dose". Depending on the bite the patient may only initially require 6 vials to overpower the venom, unfortunately much more had to be reconstituted to prepare for the worst(some bites require the full 18 vials). It's only good to administer for 4 hours once mixed so often it is wasted. It's priced to the center on a per package basis, each package is 2 vials @ just under $4k.

 

 

 

Going with that the initial dose would be $36k in anti-venom alone with a follow up of $4k every six hours out to 18. Not hard to see where the $42k in anti-venom cost came from but it should have been referred to as a single course of the treatment rather than a "dose" since it is administered with 4 doses over 24 hours from initial presentation.

 

Note to self, write a thank you note to god for not getting bit by Rattlers when we'd hunt for them when I was younger, that would've put my parents in debt for my stupidity, lol.

[2.ooohhh]

Note to self, write a thank you note to god for not getting bit by Rattlers when we'd hunt for them when I was younger, that would've put my parents in debt for my stupidity, lol.

Before CroFab was approved by the FDA in 2000 Polyvalent (ACP) would have been used to treat snakebites but it often posed a greater risk to the patient than the snakebite due to frequent allergic reactions and serum sickness.  :stunned: 

[whitewolf001]

Before CroFab was approved by the FDA in 2000 Polyvalent (ACP) would have been used to treat snakebites but it often posed a greater risk to the patient than the snakebite due to frequent allergic reactions and serum sickness.  :stunned: 

 

Leave it to the FDA to try to kill us all with that and other things, such as Aspartame in diet sodas and Splenda.

[BryanP]

Leave it to the FDA to try to kill us all with that and other things, such as Aspartame in diet sodas and Splenda.

 

The only studies that showed any negative effects from either were in amounts ridiculously high, far beyond what anybody would actually ingest.  You'd have to irrigate yourself with the stuff.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

FWIW, the Walmart camping dept usually has those Extractor gadgets, not expensive. Just easier than assuming you have to order it from somewhere to get it.

[dats82]

Many bites don't really require antivenin.  However, few providers are really experienced in treating snake bites and therefore over treat.  It is exceedingly rare for anyone in this country to die from a venomous snake, and just because you are bitten by a venomous snake, that does not imply that you need any antivenin at all.  In this area of the country where only pit vipers have been reported, the indication for antivenin is how painful the wound is.  Even if you know it was a rattler or copperhead that hit you, if your pain is localized only to the site of the bite, antibiotics and a tetanus shot will probably serve you just fine.  Granted extractors may help improve the long term effects of possible necrosis and the need for tissue debridements, I seriously doubt it will have any affect on your overall survival.  For someone to say that, without an extractor, you wouldn't make it to the hospital is just asinine in my book. 

[ted]

Many bites don't really require antivenin.  However, few providers are really experienced in treating snake bites and therefore over treat.  It is exceedingly rare for anyone in this country to die from a venomous snake, and just because you are bitten by a venomous snake, that does not imply that you need any antivenin at all.  In this area of the country where only pit vipers have been reported, the indication for antivenin is how painful the wound is.  Even if you know it was a rattler or copperhead that hit you, if your pain is localized only to the site of the bite, antibiotics and a tetanus shot will probably serve you just fine.  Granted extractors may help improve the long term effects of possible necrosis and the need for tissue debridements, I seriously doubt it will have any affect on your overall survival.  For someone to say that, without an extractor, you wouldn't make it to the hospital is just asinine in my book.

well I'm still up dating my kit it can only help your chances it sure puts your odds in better order . here is you an example why right here in tn. Westbrook was bitten just above the right elbow while handling a copperhead; he had been attempting to determine the snake's sex.[5] According to witnesses, Westbrook "tried to extract the venom with a tool after he was bitten, then he began coughing and vomiting before he collapsed."[6] Westbrook was pronounced dead on arrival at Erlanger Hospital in Chattanooga, Tennessee.[6] The cause of death was determined to be "anaphylactic shock as a result of the snake bite."[6]