Anyone have experience with geothermal heating/cooling?

[Hershmeister]

Getting ready to build our home and considering out HVAC options. Geo is interesting but is very pricey. Why kind of payback period should I expect from the lower costs of monthly electric bills.

And what about reliability of the systems? What would repairs/replacement look like vs standar heat pumps/ gas furnace?

[monkeylizard]

I looked into it a few years ago. IIRC, the break even was around 15 years or so. There were fewer moving parts that could go bad, but at the end of the payback period, you're still sitting on a 15 year old HVAC system. Our electricity in TN is cheap relative to other parts of the country. For me, it didn't make sense. Seemed like it might in places like California with higher electric rates or for someone trying to get off the grid or nearly off the grid. The earth beneath you makes a difference in the cost too. I'd expect east TN to be more costly to install than west TN because of hitting rock sooner, but that's just a guess. Wilson Co. is a rock farm, so I wouldn't expect drilling to be cheap.

 

 

 

Edit: Correcting my apparently poor sense of direction.

Edited August 11, 2013 by monkeylizard

[Lumber_Jack]

My in-laws have a geothermal. It works fine except the unit was a 6ton and the house needed at least 8-10ton unit. So this cause it to be overloaded and broke down constantly. They have recently installed a standard heat pump for the upstairs and running the geothermal downstairs. Time will tell if this solves the break down issue.

Literally they have had 3 complete unit replacements in 10 years and several other compressor only replacements.

I think if all worked flawlessly the break even mark was 15 years.

One thing to consider is yard space. The loops have to be buried 6' deep and extend through a certain amount of space. If you plan to expand or build any outdoor features the the loops have to be dug up and moved. Like my in-laws installed a pool and had to have the loops moved.

[RED333]

Yep, the 15 year thing is a draw back.

[Wyldk2]

When dad and I rebuilt on the same lot, he got the geothermal. We didn't have enough land for the lines to be dug so they dug wells instead. 4 of them to be exact. Geothermal unit is under the house and in one of the smaller upstairs rooms. His bill for a month is around the same cost it would to heat/cool my house in Lincoln county ( 1100 sq ft). His house is 2400 sq ft on the floor level. It's a 2-story house with about 4500 sq ft total.

 

Thing he was looking at was the tax pay back which pays back most of the cost, and eventually ( 15 years) before we see a return on this investment.

[Raoul]

Currently the market may not recognize any additional value for the system in spite of the cost. The payback period typically is better in areas somewhat more northern.

[Hershmeister]

Are you all factoring in the 30% tax credit to land in the 15 year payback period?

[Lumber_Jack]

Are you all factoring in the 30% tax credit to land in the 15 year payback period?

Yes, this is second hand from my FIL, but that number was after any tax rebate.

[Sam1]

We were looking at putting in a system here before moving in and the quote was $18,000 for vertical piping, the equipment and install on a bit under a 2500 sq ft house.

 

Good thing we waited until we seen the electric bill before signing up on it because even with two 18 seer units, our electric bill has been under $100/month every month.  Say we save 50% of that and it would take roughly 30 years to pay itself off, add 10% tax, then subtract 30% on the rebate and you're still looking at over 20 years to break even and by that time the system will need to be replaced.

 

Make sure you get a quote on everything before doing it, especially the piping or conductors, whatever they call them because they have to either go horizontally which requires digging up a lot of ground or going a couple hundred feet down for vertical.  I think they said we were going to need three pipes at 300 feet each, but that will depend on the size of your house.  Either way, that brought a nice little price jump into the quote.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Sam1

[jgradyc]

Here's something to consider. Our house is built on the east side of a hill. It's two story and most of the ground floor is underground. The rooms in the back of the house on the first floor have windows high on the walls that are at ground level outside. At the front of the house, the first floor is ground level.

 

Anyway, this keeps the first floor comfortably cool in the summer without air conditioning.  Trees on the hill behind the house give shade over the roof from about 3PM on in afternoon.

Edited August 11, 2013 by jgradyc

[Sam1]

Oh and one thing to be aware of is (that we also found out about) many of these companies - especially the solar system installers, have jacked up their prices 20%-30% and are claiming how much money you are saving because of the tax credit.  If you look up costs before the tax rebate started and what they are now, they went up shortly after the .gov program was put into place.

 

We honestly got tired of hearing about it, it was almost like they couldn't sell you on the features/benefits, the only thing they could say was "but you get a 30% rebate".

[Hershmeister]

Got to love how .gov screws up markets at taxpayer expense....

[Parrothead]

I'm in the HVAC business and i would love to tell you Geothermal is the way to go.  At this point, the returns will not cover the initial costs in most cases. If i were to put a new unit on my home today, i would go with the Bryant Evolution or Carrier Greenspeed unit. They are basically one in the same. Be sure you look at SEER but also HSPF. Seer is a nice buzz word in the industry but in our climate, HSPF is equally as important. The previously mentioned units are ~ 21 Seer and 13 HSPF.

 

Oh, don't overlook duel fuel if that is a option for you........

[Hershmeister]

I do have access to natural gas, so was thinking of dual fuel if geo was a no-go

Would love advice on what to consider in terms of selecting units - the seer thing is all Greek to me

[tnguy]

Got to love how .gov screws up markets at taxpayer expense....

 

Yup. Same with the digital boxes, cash for clunkers, higher education and all the other stuff government likes to throw money at. The price always goes up to compensate for the subsidy and the consumer ends up paying the same net price since that is what the market will support.

 

One thing that geothermal co that advertises on the radio keeps mentioning is that with their financing, you should start saving money from day 1. I have to say, I'm interested in it but I have a healthy dose of scepticism about it too. I'm also trying to avoid debt in general even if it makes sense on paper.

Edited August 12, 2013 by tnguy

[whitewolf001]

Yup. Same with the digital boxes, cash for clunkers, higher education and all the other stuff government likes to throw money at. The price always goes up to compensate for the subsidy and the consumer ends up paying the same net price since that is what the market will support.

 

One thing that geothermal co that advertises on the radio keeps mentioning is that with their financing, you should start saving money from day 1. I have to say, I'm interested in it but I have a healthy dose of scepticism about it too. I'm also trying to avoid debt in general even if it makes sense on paper.

 

Well, that was good for those of us in the auto-industry, lol. New cars gets the car sale and service gets the RO to destroy the motor, haha.

[peejman]

I do have access to natural gas, so was thinking of dual fuel if geo was a no-go

Would love advice on what to consider in terms of selecting units - the seer thing is all Greek to me

 

Seer is just a measurement of efficiency.  The higher, the better.  That said, buying a very high seer unit may not be most cost effective energy saving method.  Look long and hard at things like type of windows and their locations, insulation, orientation of the house with respect to sun/shade, passive heating and cooling, etc. 

 

Do the math on the dual fuel option as well.  It's just a gamble based gas prices vs. electric prices.  Personally, I don't see either changing much in the foreseeable future.  My parents have a Carrier dual fuel unit.  The gas (propane) rarely runs and the whole unit has had far more problems than expected from a "Carrier".  The 10yr parts/labor warranty turned out to be a wise choice.  If you've got natural gas service available, I'd go with a standard gas furnace.  They're simpler and gas heat feels warmer.  If/when the power goes out, it takes much less electricity to run a gas furnace compared to a heat pump. 

[tnguy]

Well, that was good for those of us in the auto-industry, lol. New cars gets the car sale and service gets the RO to destroy the motor, haha.

 

Good for me when I went to sell my old minivan too as all the competition had been destroyed in the junkyards and I was able to get more than it was really worth. Not so good for those poor people starting out in life who are trying to get a cheap, reliable vehicle though.

[seez52]

I researched it heavily before building 7 or so years ago. Cost of the wells sort of kept it from a good payback compared to a high efficiency dual fuel heat pump.

Mid Tn electric will help you work out a cost analysis. They have people that's all they do.

I can't recommend enough, only choose an HVAC contractor who will do an actual heat load on your home.Choosing tonnage based on square footage is the sure way to spend more initially and every month thereafter.

I purchased a one time use software package so I could do my own calculations. I had contractors propose 5 all the way to 11 tons of cooling. Calculations said 5 was enough and that's what we did. Haven't been sorry yet. Make sure they provide you a copy of the heat load calculations.

[Sam1]

have you considered a split system (ductless)? Depending on your home design, that may be a good option as well