Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue

[ted]

Here is you a good read for a Sunday morning , food for thought what do you have in your pistol ?? . I would like to hear your comments on this matter . It is a very very long read but he makes a lot of good points . http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm

[scoutfsu]

I'll keep reading later but this guy says he's in on close to 3000 autopsies a year?

 

ETA: I would love to see some pictures to back up what I'm reading here.

Edited August 11, 2013 by scoutfsu

[ted]

And one more very long read , confused what is your perceptions of these two articles ??? http://www.gunthorp.com/wounding_factors.htm

[ted]

I'll keep reading later but this guy says he's in on close to 3000 autopsies a year?
 
ETA: I would love to see some pictures to back up what I'm reading here.

I think he's talking about his life time so Farr not sure .

[Sam1]

Eh not so sure I like that, he states in the document:

 

1. I'm not a coroner or pathologist. Never said I was.

 

 

 

I would argue that a FMJ bullet is a better choice than a rapidly expanding Hollowpoint, unless the HP is heavy enough to penetrate.

 

 

 First statement is self-explanatory; second statement is contradicted by Massad Ayoob - which I would give credit to being the number 1 guy in the country on ballistics.  I think this guy from the article believes that most hollow points are lighter because they have a hole in them or something.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Sam1

[Fourtyfive]

Just spent an hour reading the first one , great read. Thanks !

[Tncobra]

I carry a .45 because I'm too lazy to shoot twice.

[TMF]

Thanks for posting this, as I'm sure it's informative to folks.

 

In my experience, however, bullets will make holes in people, and they won't like it when you do.  The hollowpoints in my 9mm and .45 might not be the "be all, end all" for every situation, but I can assure you they will make holes, and they will hurt if not kill a person.  There are only a few places you can hit on a person's body that will instantaneously take them down.  I might try like hell to hit those places, but the reality is when your adrenaline kicks in and you are not lined up perfectly with a stationary E-type from 7 meters, you probably aren't going to have perfect shot placement anyway.  Realistically it is a race to put as many holes into the bad guy as quick as you can before he makes you dead. 

[Stegall Law Firm]

Long on speculation and opinions, short on truth or accuracy.  He makes it clear that he has no faith in the 9mm, but then admits that he's probably never seen a wound from a good 9mm duty load, only those from cheap fodder like Wolf or WWB.

 

I'll stick with DocGKR's work, which has been tested and verified. 

[Will Carry]

I will continue to carry my 9mm and even my 38 special. I know of a man who was shot 8 times with a 45acp and 11 times with OO buck shot and he still managed to kill two law enforcement officers, get in a car, and be driven away. He bled to death later.  I love the ballistics debate! I have been studying it for many years. I enjoyed reading this article too, though I do not agree with everything he said.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Will Carry

[ted]

Long on speculation and opinions, short on truth or accuracy.  He makes it clear that he has no faith in the 9mm, but then admits that he's probably never seen a wound from a good 9mm duty load, only those from cheap fodder like Wolf or WWB.
 
I'll stick with DocGKR's work, which has been tested and verified.

do you have info on DocGKR's

[Wiljo05]

Realistically it is a race to put as many holes into the bad guy as quick as you can before he makes you dead.
[/quote]

+1 for this ^.

Edit: quotes fell off somehow Edited August 12, 2013 by Wiljo05

[ted]

FBI view http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf found this the latest DHS ammo buy http://www.dhs.gov/news/2013/04/25/written-testimony-dhs-mgmt-and-ice-house-oversight-government-reform-subcommittees Edited August 12, 2013 by ted

[Sam1]

do you have info on DocGKR's

That docgkr has stuff online everywhere, what are you specifically looking for? Most people ask him "what ammo to use in what caliber"... I can send that later when I'm on a computer if you want

[ted]

That docgkr has stuff online everywhere, what are you specifically looking for? Most people ask him "what ammo to use in what caliber"... I can send that later when I'm on a computer if you want

thanks that would help looking for a good round for my wife's 9mm shield that would be equal to or close to a 40S&W ballistics but with out the dramatic recoil , but has the knock down power , don't even know if there is even sutch a thing . But with today's technology who knows . I guess the best thing to do is jest ask everybody on the forums what 9mm round do thay use and why ? . 9mm has come a long way .

[ted]

This is what I found on what he considers , what a wide range of calibers and types of ammo . The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (Q4355)

.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 160 & 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP). And then there is dr. Martin factler https://www.facebook.com/pages/Martin-Fackler/119905888055743?rf=138769929481212 Edited August 12, 2013 by ted

[leroy]

Ted:  Thanks for posting the link, it's a great read. Some things to think about.  The problem in lots of places RE: weapons effectivness is that we are short on old time gun men and hunters and long on "scientific and analytical opinions".  I'm kinda like the great Jeff Cooper on this stuff.  He wuz rather dismissive of those who weren't in gunfights.  He preferred the wisdom of those who were in gunfights and lived to tell the tale to those who gave opinions on them. 

 

Havin said all that; here are some things to consider that the guy who did the posting wuz right on (...at least i think he is...); and where his observations square with the opinions of old time gunmen:

 

--- Shot placement is the king of stopping the trouble.   Old time hunters say the same thing.  No contest here.

 

--- Deep penetration is the most important aspect of wounding what you are shooting at.   Old time hunters say the same thing.  Especially when goin after big, dangerous game.  

 

--- The bigger the caliber, the greater the bullet mass.  The more likely it is to stay together and do more damage by shattering protective bone structures.   Old time hunters say the same thing.   Havin said that, the high velocity stuff that stays together does the same thing at the expense of mass.  It's long on velocity and short on mass.  Think 357 mag and 357 sig here.

 

--- The "hierarchy of killin effectivenes" shows up here too.  Shotgun, rifle, handgun.  Again, agreement with old time hunters and "security professionals".   Notice the caliber and mass thing here too.

 

The fact of the matter is (...i believe, anyway...) that the old time gunmen have been vindicated here.  Heavy caliber revolvers of 357 magnum up are very reliable manstoppers; as is the 1911.   They have just fell out of favor in modern times.   The plastic pistol revolution gave us greater firepower (...round count...), but less desirable calibers.   It cost some lives in gunfights and that's why ya see certain segments of those who need to have all the edge they can get in a potential gunfight encounter are goin back to the old time 1911 in an ancient caliber... The 45 ACP.  

 

Regardless of the opinions of opiners, "experts", and "caliber jhadists"; the best gun to have in any gunfight is the one you are carryin; and you better know how to shoot it more than once.   I'm thinkin about findin another government model myself.   They are just a bit heavy.

 

leroy

 

[Smith]

He continually applauds the .357 and then equates the 9mm to the .380 throughout the entire blog. Defensive 9mm is nearly identical to a .357 (125g). Especially when you are looking at 124g +p and a standard 9mm is double the muzzle energy of a .380 in a heavier bullet.

 

I think he means well, but far to much conjecture and his observations are tainted by his preconceived notions and disagree with actual scientific studies.

 

Conclusion? same old song and dance that doesn't actually tell us anything.

[whitewolf001]

Ted, that is some awesome reading material. Thanks!

[leroy]

RE:  Smith's post above (...#18...).  I think what is hurting the rep of the 9mm is the bullet design thing.  The bullet engineers have fixated on the hollow point in an attempt to fix the "over penetration" thing (...which aint necessarily a bad thing in crowded locations....) to the point that sometimes there are spectacular failures of the bullet (... shedding a jacket, not expanding, whatever...).  I think that plus the low bullet weight (...115 to 125 grain...) hurts the 9mm somewhat.  

 

I think the nine is much closer to a good 38 special than lots of people want to believe; especially when fired in short barreled pistols (...less than 4 inches...).    We've got a baby glock (33...) in 357 sig that will generate a genuine 1250 to 1300 fps with handloads and a 125 grain hornady hollowpoint (...357 sig design...) out of a 3 inch barrel.  That's with a case plum full of AA #9.  I aint sure a 9 mm will do that out of the usual defense handgun. By way of contrast, a good medium framed 357 mag with a 4 inch barrel will probably reliably do 1450 fps... Thats pretty fast, and is (...i think...) the root of why the 357 works so well.

 

I aint beatin up the 9 mm ---- i think all calibers are lethal in the right hands ----- but i think what we are talkin about here is part of the problem.   A 4 inch or longer 357 revolver loaded with 125 grain hot loads is lots more powerful than a 9 or 357 sig across the board.   Faster the bullet, the more reliable the "kill factor".  It shoots thru something vital or hits a bone, shatters it, and the bone fragments do the job.  I think that is what our man is tryin to say in a backhanded way.

 

leroy

Edited August 12, 2013 by leroy

[Sam1]

Leroy, also have to take into consideration the bullet shape on the sig; it may weigh the same, but most of the bullets are almost like a wadcutter with a bit of a concave face.  Makes for a nasty impact

[leroy]

Sam:  RE: The "flat nose" truncated cone bullet thing:  I think you are right.  In the "old days" hornady introduced two bullets, one in 45 (...230 grain...) and a 9 mm (...124 grain...) flat nose truncated cone type bullet.  I've got several boxes of the 9 mm from the old days for loading into 38 super.  They are probably 25 years old.  My current stash of 45 acp wuz loaded with the 230 grain flat nose hardball of about the same vintage.  I did a quick look on the hornady site; they still do the flat nose 45 acp; but not the 9 mm. 

 

When ya look at the bullet selections; ya can see that the hollow point designs have taken most everything in the handgun bullet department.   There is no doubt that the bullet nose design is very important.  I aint sure that the copper plated lead flat nose bullets aint the real low cost answer for both the 45 and the nine.

 

leroy