Couple of ?'s :Brass and Lee Dies

[lifelearner84]

Okay, brand new to reloading. Just got in my RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme Kit. I've been trying to make my decision about dies. I've been eyeballing the Lee Deluxe Carbide 4 Die set in 40S&W. What I'm wondering is: Is the "Powder Through Expanding Die" something that I can use without a Lee press? It's function is to "expand and bell the case mouth while charging the case with powder." Since I'll be using my RCBS powder thrower, can I use this Lee die to expand and and bell the case properly? Or does it have a function built in so it will only work with a Lee press?

Secondly: I've been saving a lot of my brass from the range for the last few months, and since I'm subject to what's on the shelf and available, I have a few different brands of brass in the mix, namely Remington, Winchester, Blazer, PMC, and Monarch. I've kept an eye on the boxes these come in, but I'm concerned about quality of each brand. Is there going to a difference here? And further, if I am reloading a 180 grain mix into a case that previously held a 165 grain mix from the factory, does that put the case at higher risk of failure? (Assuming that the brass has 100% structural integrity of course, no cracks or anything.)

That's my newbie question of the day. I am a stickler for details, and so when I was reading about guys just picking up once fired range brass they find at the range I thought,"That could be any brand or any grain count for that caliber... how would you know it's safe to use?" I'm well aware my need for specifics can be too much sometimes, so feel free to set me straight. The important thing is, I want to make sure I'm doing this the right way, the first time. Thanks in advance for taking the time to view or comment and I'm glad to be a member here.

[Westwindmike]

The Lee die will work just fine in your RCBS press. It will expand and bell your case. Just don't use the powder feature.

 

Don't worry about range brass being mixed up. After you size it and reload it, it'll be good as new. Probably better than new. I haven't sorted by brand in years for 9mm, 45acp or 380.

[BigK]

I've always been rather fond of the Lee powder through die. It does a great job of flaring the case mouth. The only feature it has that makes it special is that as the die is expanding the mouth of the case, the brass cartridge CAN be raise up and activate a powder measure that screws into the die. In fact, I don't see any reason why you couldn't use a Lee Powder Measure (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/537685/lee-auto-disk-powder-measure) on your Rock Chucker, saving yourself a step.

 

Unless you're loading +P rounds, don't worry about the brass. The 180 gr bullet actually needs less powder than the 165 gr bullet, anyway. So, you're probably at less risk of stressing the case. The chamber will be supporting the thinnest parts of the brass anyway, unless you're shooting a Glock. They are notorious for leaving a bulge in the base of the brass due to the chamber not fully supporting the case.

Edited August 10, 2013 by BigK

[mikegideon]

I've always been rather fond of the Lee powder through die. It does a great job of flaring the case mouth. The only feature it has that makes it special is that as the die is expanding the mouth of the case, the brass cartridge CAN be raise up and activate a powder measure that screws into the die. In fact, I don't see any reason why you couldn't use a Lee Powder Measure (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/537685/lee-auto-disk-powder-measure) on your Rock Chucker, saving yourself a step.

 

Unless you're loading +P rounds, don't worry about the brass. The 180 gr bullet actually needs less powder than the 165 gr bullet, anyway. So, you're probably at less risk of stressing the case. The chamber will be supporting the thinnest parts of the brass anyway, unless you're shooting a Glock. They are notorious for leaving a bulge in the base of the brass due to the chamber not fully supporting the case.

 

Do yourself a huge favor and get the Auto disk pro. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/348753/lee-pro-auto-disk-powder-measure

 

Ammo is loaded as a percentage of max rated pressure. A heavier bullet increases pressure, and that's why the powder charge is reduced. The cases see about the same pressure, no matter what size bullet.

[lifelearner84]

Thanks for all the info guys. As it turns out I will be reloading 40s&w specifically for my glock 23 gen4. It does bulge the cases a bit, and I've addressed that with the purchase of the Lee Bulge Buster Base Sizing Kit on Midway. I've read you can do the same operation with the factory crimp die by removing the crimp sleeve from the inside of the die and just pushing the brass all the way through, but seeing as that's not what it's actually designed for, I bought the bulge buster for that job. I've got the order in and should receive it next week. Thanks again for all the information.

[Dolomite_supafly]

When belling the case mouth only flare enough to keep the bullet from shaving. The bell should be hard to see, if you can at all, and even harder to feel. The biggest failure of straight walled cases is the case mouth splitting and this is caused from excessve belling.

 

Secondly, with straight wall semi auto calibers the case mouth is what sets your headspace. So you need to make sure the crimp does not go so far as to remove the lip of the case mouth. I do not crimp my semi auto straight walled cases. I set my die up so it removes what little bell I have. If you apply too much crimp two things can happen. First the cartridge might fall too far into the chamber to fire, this is the good option. The bad option is the cartridge falls far enough forward that the throat holds the case mouth closed and the round is able to fire. This will cause astronomical pressure spikes and I believe 90% of pistol kabooms are a result of this, especially those who claim the load was not close to max. You have to have enough of the case mouth exposed to have a lip. And for me it must have enough lip for my fingernail to catch it.

 

Make sure the range pick ups are all boxer primed. Some brass cased ammo is berdan primed and can break the decapping pin on a Lee setup. To see what kind of brass a casing is you have to look inside. If it has one central hole in the middle it is boxer primed and can be loaded using your Lee. If it has two holes then it is Berdan and they will break your decapper pin if you do not catch it.

 

And finally, make sure to clean the brass if it has ever touched the ground. You can tumble them or you can wash them using Lemishine. The reason is all it takes is a single piece of sand to ruin your dies. It will scratch the inside of your die and then every piece of brass sized after that will have a corresponding scratch. Also, inspect any nickle plated cases very carefully because a flake of the nickle will also scratch your dies. Most will flake if you bell the case mouth too much too.

 

There is no need to lube the cases if you are using carbide dies but I do. The reason is it makes sizing so much easier. Without lube it works but requires a lot more force. When you have to size 500 pieces of brass it can get very tiring if the cases are not lubed. When sizing lubed 45 ACP I can literally use a single finger, without lube it takes my whole hand and a lot more force. For lube you can make your own using lanolin and alcohol. It is cheap, easy and lasts a lifetime.

 

One more thing. With Glocks be mindful that cast bullets can cause significant leading in the bore. That leading increases pressures significantly and can cause problems. I have talked to Glock owners and they said they put a round with a jacketed bullet at the bottom of each magazine to keep things from going south.

 

As far as the Lee dies go they work great for the money but I now prefer RCBS over Lee for most of my reloading. The reason is the RCBS has replaceable decapping pins if they break. The decapping stem is threaded to prevent slipping that sometimes happens with Lee dies. I have had more issues from Lee products than RCBS but Lee makes it right.

[Westwindmike]

I like the Lee decapping pins over the RCBS. I have broken a few RCBS pins through the years, but never a Lee. The Lee is designed to slide up if an obstruction is encountered. I've had that happen a few times when a Berdan case slips in.

[RED333]

Be sure to look for these, even the smallest "smile" WILL make thing go bad fast.

[URL=http://s896.photobucket.com/user/redintn/media/Glock%20smile/gs2_zps493ec5ea.jpg.html][/URL]

[URL=http://s896.photobucket.com/user/redintn/media/Glock%20smile/gs1_zps70476f6f.jpg.html][/URL]

[mikegideon]

I like the Lee decapping pins over the RCBS. I have broken a few RCBS pins through the years, but never a Lee. The Lee is designed to slide up if an obstruction is encountered. I've had that happen a few times when a Berdan case slips in.

 

It's real simple to me. Unless you are loading high end rifle ammo, Lee dies work as well or better than the rest, and almost always for less money.

[lifelearner84]

I'll post some photos of my brass and how it's coming out once fired. I have never seen any of the "smile" in any of my casing. The bulge tends to be about half way up the body of the case. I'll post some photos this afternoon when I get off work.

[lifelearner84]

Here's a random hand of cases from my batch of about 500. Again, I've inspected closely and do not see anything resembline the "smile" portrayed by red333's post. Of course if I saw something that severe I'd be scrapping them immediately, but this is what I'm getting. I just got my 23 gen 4 this year and it's manufacture is January 2013. From what I've read, Glock has made some corrections on the distance that the feed ramp is cut into the barrel on the new pistols, the photos I researched of some of the older ones kabooming were horrific. I took out my barrel and dropped a round in just to see how far down that cut out for the feed ramp goes... it's nowhere near as deep as the older barrels I've seen. Of course I could just get a different barrel, but I don't want to go that route unless absolutely necessary.

 

[URL=http://s1300.photobucket.com/user/technogeek1984/media/photo2_zps86d5fcf6.jpg.html][/URL]

 

[URL=http://s1300.photobucket.com/user/technogeek1984/media/photo1_zpsd15fddc6.jpg.html][/URL]

[RED333]

Bottom pic, last case on the right is showing a small sign of the "smile".

Check your cases very well, the "kaboom" will make a good day bad fast.

My pics are of extreme cases, we found them in some brass we picked up from a range.

[Guest flashhole]

New to this forum but not new to reloading.  I load for 40 S&W and I use Lee equipment.  I have Lee (and other) presses, I have Lee bullet molds and sizing dies for the 40, I have the Lee Bulge Buster, I have Lee dies and I use Lee Dipper Cups for charging the cases.  EXCELLENT results!  If you purchased the Lee Bulge Buster, run every single case through the die.  Some will be worse than others but they all benefit from having been run throught the die.  The powder through expander is an ingenius design, I wish I had one for every straight wall case I load.

[lifelearner84]

Alright guys... sorry for the lull in getting back with results. Here's what I'm running into. I'll start by listing my gear so we're all on the same page.

 

Rock Chucker Supreme

Lee Deluxe Pistol Die Set 40S&W/10mm

Lee Bulge Buster

 

Okay, so I've got about 300 once fired cases in this lot. All have come from my Glock 23 Gen 4, purchased last year in November. As you've seen in the photos above, there's an obvious bulge in the cases, thanks to Glock's open barrel tolerances. (That's not a hit on Glock, just the fact.) So... what I'm posting here is the brass going through the process of:

#1. Bulge Buster

#2. Resizing/Decapping.

 

I took 2 different cases through the process, switching the order. So on case #1, I first ran the case through the Lee Bulge Buster, and then did the Resize/Decap as the second step. Just because I was curious, with case #2 I started with Resizing/Decapping die first and then moved to the bulge buster. Long story short, I took measurements of each case before starting, after running each one through the first step, and after the last step. My case dimensions match exactly either way, although starting with the BB seemed to be much easier, as starting with the R/D die required significant force to get the cases through the BB. Here are some photos of the results. My apologies ahead of time for the quality, I could only get so close with my iPhone. (Spoiler alert, this brass will not be usable based on what I'm seeing.)

 

Case #1 Before BB

[url=http://s1300.photobucket.com/user/technogeek1984/media/photo1_zps638a08e0.jpg.html][/URL]

 

Case #1 After BB

[url=http://s1300.photobucket.com/user/technogeek1984/media/photo2_zps65f5efbc.jpg.html][/URL]

 

Case #1 After R/D

[url=http://s1300.photobucket.com/user/technogeek1984/media/photo3_zps9630d45f.jpg.html][/URL]

 

Case #2 Before

[url=http://s1300.photobucket.com/user/technogeek1984/media/photo1_zpsb43055fa.jpg.html][/URL]

 

Case#2 After R/D

[url=http://s1300.photobucket.com/user/technogeek1984/media/photo1_zps470b8102.jpg.html][/URL]

 

Case#2 After BB

[url=http://s1300.photobucket.com/user/technogeek1984/media/photo4_zps1aee730c.jpg.html][/URL]

 

Final Results

Case #1:

Starting OAL - 0.838&1/2

After BB - 0.842

After R/D - 0.845

 

Case #2:

Starting OAL - 0.838&1/2

After R/D - 0.844

After BB - 0.845

 

As you can see, the R/D die is leaving a massive crease in the case body about 1/8" above the head. Basically, there's no way I can use this brass with it being compromised this badly. So... my stock Glock barrel is to blame. For me, the only thing I know to do is buy an aftermarket barrel for my Glock, which I have been planning on doing anyway so I can shoot lead rather than jacketed bullets. The bulge is just too much for these cases to come back from the stress, based on what I'm seeing.

 

I have one other question first though. As hard as it may be to find, will I be able to fight bulge with nickel cases rather than brass cases? I don't mind the investment in using nickel for my reloads if I could use it to get through the jacketed bullets in my stock barrel. Otherwise, I'll have to scrap the brass, unless someone here has need for it.

 

Thanks for taking the time to review, and any input is greatly appreciated. Again, glad to be a part of the community here and I look forward to being able to contribute more here with everyone as time and experience permit. Thanks.

Edited September 6, 2013 by lifelearner84

[SonnyCrockett]

Alright guys... sorry for the lull in getting back with results. Here's what I'm running into. I'll start by listing my gear so we're all on the same page.

 

Rock Chucker Supreme

Lee Deluxe Pistol Die Set 40S&W/10mm

Lee Bulge Buster

 

Okay, so I've got about 300 once fired cases in this lot. All have come from my Glock 23 Gen 4, purchased last year in November. As you've seen in the photos above, there's an obvious bulge in the cases, thanks to Glock's open barrel tolerances. (That's not a hit on Glock, just the fact.) So... what I'm posting here is the brass going through the process of:

#1. Bulge Buster

#2. Resizing/Decapping.

 

I took 2 different cases through the process, switching the order. So on case #1, I first ran the case through the Lee Bulge Buster, and then did the Resize/Decap as the second step. Just because I was curious, with case #2 I started with Resizing/Decapping die first and then moved to the bulge buster. Long story short, I took measurements of each case before starting, after running each one through the first step, and after the last step. My case dimensions match exactly either way, although starting with the BB seemed to be much easier, as starting with the R/D die required significant force to get the cases through the BB. Here are some photos of the results. My apologies ahead of time for the quality, I could only get so close with my iPhone. (Spoiler alert, this brass will not be usable based on what I'm seeing.)

 

Case #1 Before BB

 

Case #1 After BB

 

Case #1 After R/D

 

Case #2 Before

 

Case#2 After R/D

 

Case#2 After BB

 

Final Results

Case #1:

Starting OAL - 0.838&1/2

After BB - 0.842

After R/D - 0.845

 

Case #2:

Starting OAL - 0.838&1/2

After R/D - 0.844

After BB - 0.845

 

As you can see, the R/D die is leaving a massive crease in the case body about 1/8" above the head. Basically, there's no way I can use this brass with it being compromised this badly. So... my stock Glock barrel is to blame. For me, the only thing I know to do is buy an aftermarket barrel for my Glock, which I have been planning on doing anyway so I can shoot lead rather than jacketed bullets. The bulge is just too much for these cases to come back from the stress, based on what I'm seeing.

 

I have one other question first though. As hard as it may be to find, will I be able to fight bulge with nickel cases rather than brass cases? I don't mind the investment in using nickel for my reloads if I could use it to get through the jacketed bullets in my stock barrel. Otherwise, I'll have to scrap the brass, unless someone here has need for it.

 

Thanks for taking the time to review, and any input is greatly appreciated. Again, glad to be a part of the community here and I look forward to being able to contribute more here with everyone as time and experience permit. Thanks.

 

 

 

If it chambers it runs thats how I reload pistol,,,That crease is nothing id worry about and for the record I have made lots of 40S&W and never bulged busted a single one

All you need to be concerned about is if it slides into your barrel and everything I have seen so far looks normal and shootable

 

 

 

 

[BigK]

Wow, I knew that Bulge Buster couldn't undo the thin spots in the brass, but I had no idea just how much that brass was stretching after a single firing. You're going to probably be beyond max case length after only using the brass twice. I hate trimming brass!!

[broylz]

if you keep your loads at a moderate level, the brass will last much longer.

 

loading them to minor PF with some titegroup will cause almost no stress at all.

 

I use almost exclusively Lee products and have never had any issues. the only 40 reloads ive done are the minor PF loads though. in 9mm, I really like my Pro1000 even if it is a bit finicky. the Lee dies have proven very accurate in my rifle loads as well.

Edited September 6, 2013 by broylz

[MarkInNashville]

Here's a random hand of cases from my batch of about 500. Again, I've inspected closely and do not see anything resembline the "smile" portrayed by red333's post. Of course if I saw something that severe I'd be scrapping them immediately, but this is what I'm getting. I just got my 23 gen 4 this year and it's manufacture is January 2013. From what I've read, Glock has made some corrections on the distance that the feed ramp is cut into the barrel on the new pistols, the photos I researched of some of the older ones kabooming were horrific. I took out my barrel and dropped a round in just to see how far down that cut out for the feed ramp goes... it's nowhere near as deep as the older barrels I've seen. Of course I could just get a different barrel, but I don't want to go that route unless absolutely necessary.

 

 

 

I have to say that after looking at the first sets of pictures (above) the only thing I can see is the dent that has been created from the ejector (and in my opinion, isn't that bad, I have seen much larger dents). I do not know anything about bulge busters but it may not be a wise idea to use the BB prophylactically (if the case hasn't bulged yet). Sometime the cure is as bad or maybe worse than the disease! Just a thought, I'm not expert.

[musicman]

Loaded thousands of rounds of 40 using the same brass multiple times at near max pressures that looked way worse than that with just the decap/resizing die. I don't even have a bulge buster die. I've never had an issue and don't expect to. I've had a few case splits, starting from the case mouth but that's an unrelated issue.

Methinks you worry too much about something that doesn't really matter. But hey, if you enjoy fiddling with it, more power to ya! :-)

[lifelearner84]

Loaded thousands of rounds of 40 using the same brass multiple times at near max pressures that looked way worse than that with just the decap/resizing die. I don't even have a bulge buster die. I've never had an issue and don't expect to. I've had a few case splits, starting from the case mouth but that's an unrelated issue.
Methinks you worry too much about something that doesn't really matter. But hey, if you enjoy fiddling with it, more power to ya! :-)

Out of a stock Glock 23 by chance? I mean if it was out of any other barrel I'd feel better. I guess it's just the fear of a kaboom with the looser tolerances. Given I am extremely green to reloading, I'm just trying to cover all my bases. That said, I have been victim to paralysis of analysis before... It's more prevalent in this endeavor I think because the stakes are much higher, meaning the use of my hands and fingers haha.

Thanks for all the replies from everyone.

[Patton]

Thanks for all the info guys. As it turns out I will be reloading 40s&w specifically for my glock 23 gen4.

You probably will get the same amount of chamber support with an aftermarket barrel as the factory gen4 barrel gives you.

Out of a stock Glock 23 by chance? I mean if it was out of any other barrel I'd feel better. I guess it's just the fear of a kaboom with the looser tolerances. Given I am extremely green to reloading, I'm just trying to cover all my bases. That said, I have been victim to paralysis of analysis before... It's more prevalent in this endeavor I think because the stakes are much higher, meaning the use of my hands and fingers haha.
Thanks for all the replies from everyone.

I have shot over 1k reloaded 40's out of a gen4 no concerns, I only throw out cases with obvious smiley faces(from other 40's, not mine). Edited September 7, 2013 by Patton

[broylz]

just load to a comfortable middle level. people usually have issues when pushing the limits.