Zimmerman - Lessons Learned

[midtennchip]

Yeah, ANOTHER Zimmerman post.  For those of you who are members of the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network, you probably received the August newletter in your email box this morning.  In it, Marty Hayes has an excellent article on Lessons Learned in the Zimmerman Case.  Very well written and informative.  I will share some bulletpoints and my own comments:

 

1.  Cost of the Case -  Evidently, Zimmerman's cost to date on his defense is over $400,000.  Part of that was $95,000 to his bail bond.  Even the best of self-defense insurance policies won't cover that full cost.  Be prepared to expend HUGE amounts of money if you are ever prosecuted.  The bail bond will be due very early in the case and will likely be significant.  Do you have the ability to make those payments, particularly in a short amount of time?  If not, how would you deal with it?  Are you going to be stuck in jail (i.e., no bail money) or stuck with a public defender (i.e., no retainer fee)?

 

2.  Ammo Selection - this has been discussed many times, but ammo selection is almost always a key part of a self-defense case.  Not necessarily whether or not your ammo was appropriate, but because of the physical evidence ammo leaves at the scene.  Being able to reproduce (as close as possible) the gunshot residue could be vital.  As a result, handloads have a distinct downside.  Even if you could reproduce the exact load, you would HAVE to testify to show that (and you might not want to testify, as Zimmerman chose not to).  Commercial ammo, particularly from a reputable company that still makes the exact load you used, gives you the ability to recreate the gunshot residue pattern and use an expert witness to bolster your case.  As you may recall, the gunshot residue was significant in the Zimmerman case to show that Martin was on top of Zimmerman at the time of the shooting.

 

3.  Changes to a Stock Gun -  while not specifically brought out in the Zimmerman case, Marty talks about 4 other cases where he has been a witness recently.  The state produced a firearms expert witness in each case to discuss the gun used, its safety features, etc.  Zimmerman's gun was, apparently, a stock gun, so not much came out about it.  However, changes to a stock gun (such as reducing trigger pull weight, personalized engravings, etc) would have been a big issue in Zimmerman, as it has been in other cases, if he had not used a stock gun.  If you make changes to a stock gun for your self-defense weapon, think about what those changes show to a jury. 

 

4.  Your History - Zimmerman's history of calls to police, his desire to be an LEO, etc. were major issues for the prosecution.  If Zimmerman had made online postings that were negative, rest assured the prosecution would have used them.  Before you tell people how you would defend yourself, or before you post something on TGO, think about what that statement or post would look like in front of a jury.  There is a current post about whether someone needs to take a butt-kicking before defending himself.  I would suggest just looking at those posts and asking yourself whether or not you would want to have a jury viewing those posts if you were on trial.  Some of the posts would be fine, but I think there are a few that I would not want to have to defend in court.

 

If you are a member of the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, please read that article.  Marty has the experience and knowledge that really helps to understand and learn from the Zimmerman case. 

Edited July 31, 2013 by midtennchip

[Guest 6.8 AR]

That's very helpful. Thanks!

[DaveS]

Very good!

 

DaveS

[kieefer]

Good stuff to think about  :up:

 

On a brighter note you may get a pass on a speeding ticket  :woohoo:

 

http://www.tmz.com/2013/07/31/george-zimmerman-speeding-traffic-stop-gun-firearm-texas/

[RobertNashville]

Yeah, ANOTHER Zimmerman post.  For those of you who are members of the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network, you probably received the August newletter in your email box this morning.  In it, Marty Hayes has an excellent article on Lessons Learned in the Zimmerman Case.  Very well written and informative.  I will share some bulletpoints and my own comments:

 

1.  Cost of the Case -  Evidently, Zimmerman's cost to date on his defense is over $400,000.  Part of that was $95,000 to his bail bond.  Even the best of self-defense insurance policies won't cover that full cost.  Be prepared to expend HUGE amounts of money if you are ever prosecuted.  The bail bond will be due very early in the case and will likely be significant.  Do you have the ability to make those payments, particularly in a short amount of time?  If not, how would you deal with it?  Are you going to be stuck in jail (i.e., no bail money) or stuck with a public defender (i.e., no retainer fee)?

 

2.  Ammo Selection - this has been discussed many times, but ammo selection is almost always a key part of a self-defense case.  Not necessarily whether or not your ammo was appropriate, but because of the physical evidence ammo leaves at the scene.  Being able to reproduce (as close as possible) the gunshot residue could be vital.  As a result, handloads have a distinct downside.  Even if you could reproduce the exact load, you would HAVE to testify to show that (and you might not want to testify, as Zimmerman chose not to).  Commercial ammo, particularly from a reputable company that still makes the exact load you used, gives you the ability to recreate the gunshot residue pattern and use an expert witness to bolster your case.  As you may recall, the gunshot residue was significant in the Zimmerman case to show that Martin was on top of Zimmerman at the time of the shooting.

 

3.  Changes to a Stock Gun -  while not specifically brought out in the Zimmerman case, Marty talks about 4 other cases where he has been a witness recently.  The state produced a firearms expert witness in each case to discuss the gun used, its safety features, etc.  Zimmerman's gun was, apparently, a stock gun, so not much came out about it.  However, changes to a stock gun (such as reducing trigger pull weight, personalized engravings, etc) would have been a big issue in Zimmerman, as it has been in other cases, if he had not used a stock gun.  If you make changes to a stock gun for your self-defense weapon, think about what those changes show to a jury. 

 

4.  Your History - Zimmerman's history of calls to police, his desire to be an LEO, etc. were major issues for the prosecution.  If Zimmerman had made online postings that were negative, rest assured the prosecution would have used them.  Before you tell people how you would defend yourself, or before you post something on TGO, think about what that statement or post would look like in front of a jury.  There is a current post about whether someone needs to take a butt-kicking before defending himself.  I would suggest just looking at those posts and asking yourself whether or not you would want to have a jury viewing those posts if you were on trial.  Some of the posts would be fine, but I think there are a few that I would not want to have to defend in court.

 

If you are a member of the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, please read that article.  Marty has the experience and knowledge that really helps to understand and learn from the Zimmerman case. 

Massad Ayoob covered these and a many other related topics in his MAS 20 class...probably the singly most useful two days I've ever spend in a classroom dealing with the use of deadly force.

Ammunition was a significant discussion precisely for the reasons you cite above and it's made me decide that I need to "re-group" my PD ammo; I always use factory ammo but I need to be able to ensure that I can identify the specific ammo I am carrying at any given time in any of my carry weapons.

[peejman]

Nice list. I'd add one more lesson... Don't be stupid and you won't get in a fight.

[Worriedman]

Nice list. I'd add one more lesson... Don't be stupid and you won't get in a fight.

 

Not necessarily true.  The other guy can be really stupid, or evil, and drag you into a fight.

[tnhawk]

Nice list. I'd add one more lesson... Don't be stupid and you won't get in a fight.

If it were that simple, most of us would not need to carry a handgun.

[tnhawk]

Good stuff to think about  :up:

 

On a brighter note you may get a pass on a speeding ticket  :woohoo:

 

http://www.tmz.com/2013/07/31/george-zimmerman-speeding-traffic-stop-gun-firearm-texas/

Most of us don't get national TV coverage for a speeding stop! :)

[DaveTN]

Nice list. I'd add one more lesson... Don't be stupid and you won't get in a fight.

This.

Common sense is sometimes overlooked as being the obvious factor. Don’t be stupid and you won’t be in court.

[whitewolf001]

This.

Common sense is sometimes overlooked as being the obvious factor. Don’t be stupid and you won’t be in court.

 

Very true but there are times when you may not have a choice in the matter of defense and the family then decides they want everything you have yet you were completely in the right.

[TMF]

Very true but there are times when you may not have a choice in the matter of defense and the family then decides they want everything you have yet you were completely in the right.

 

And in some cases you do have a choice.  Best make the good choices that prevent obvious conflict, or don't.  One has a much, much higher chance of landing you in criminal or civil court.

[DaveTN]

Very true but there are times when you may not have a choice in the matter of defense and the family then decides they want everything you have yet you were completely in the right.

I’m talking criminal court; there is a good chance civil court is going to happen unless (in this state) you have a court ruling you were justified. You aren’t going to end up in criminal court because of the ammo you used.

[peejman]

Very true but there are times when you may not have a choice in the matter of defense and the family then decides they want everything you have yet you were completely in the right.

Agreed, there are times when it's unavoidable. The Zimmerman case was not one of them. What Zimmerman did was stupid. Legal, but stupid.

[Guest ab28]

Very true but there are times when you may not have a choice in the matter of defense and the family then decides they want everything you have yet you were completely in the right.

This is one of the many benefits to being a minimalist. I don't own anything, so anyone that sues me is gonna be out of luck. This isn't the primary reason, but it is a nice addition.

[midtennchip]

This is one of the many benefits to being a minimalist. I don't own anything, so anyone that sues me is gonna be out of luck. This isn't the primary reason, but it is a nice addition.

Unless you have a job, then that judgment will likely show up as a garnishment. Judgments also last for at least 10 years (often longer), so it could sit dormant for a long time before being executed against you. In a case where a self-defense shooting results in a civil judgment against you, it might not even be dischargeable in bankruptcy.

[tnhawk]

Good stuff to think about  :up:

 

On a brighter note you may get a pass on a speeding ticket  :woohoo:

 

http://www.tmz.com/2013/07/31/george-zimmerman-speeding-traffic-stop-gun-firearm-texas/

I'd rather have the speeding ticket to pay than the costs Zimmerman now has :rofl:

[tnhawk]

Not necessarily true.  The other guy can be really stupid, or evil, and drag you into a fight.

More time in a permit class needs to be spent on learning to avoid a gun fight.

[Guest ab28]

Unless you have a job, then that judgment will likely show up as a garnishment. Judgments also last for at least 10 years (often longer), so it could sit dormant for a long time before being executed against you. In a case where a self-defense shooting results in a civil judgment against you, it might not even be dischargeable in bankruptcy.

That's annoying, I generally take a dim view of someone trying to enslave me. Especially if it was some crazy huge amount that I would have no hope of paying off, and it took most of my paycheck, I'd probably just stop working or something. It would be irritating if the family of some criminal scumbag sued me like that.

[cgun86]

Your last point is dead on. Don't update your Facebook status before going out with, " Looking to stir up some trouble tonight", or Tweet "Reloaded some hot ones, can't wait to shoot them", at midnight before going clubbing. Social media should be rebranded as "Liability media"

[cgun86]

Very good!

DaveS

Also, Just wanted to quote something.

[A.J. Holst]

The use of social media including this forum can be damning. Persecutors and Prosecutors will dig up anything and everything they can use against you, in context, out of context, left, right, up and down. It is more effective to cloud fact with emotion.

 

Unfortunately we must censor our freedom of speech to protect the 2A for EVERYONE.

[tnhawk]

The use of social media including this forum can be damning. Persecutors and Prosecutors will dig up anything and everything they can use against you, in context, out of context, left, right, up and down. It is more effective to cloud fact with emotion....

The media always hates it when facts ruin a good story.