voldemort at it again

[RobertNashville]

IANAL, so this is my laypersons understanding...  and there may very well be case law that contradicts my understanding...  

 

But we don't have trials in absentia in this country, so just because he didn't show up for a hearing that didn't even happen doesn't mean he can lose his other rights or privileges under the law.  To do that he has to be found guilty in a court where the entire proceeding fall under due process.  I'm not trying to claim that his HCP was revocation is somehow faulty (although I'm glad to argue that TDOS should not have the subjective ability to revoke a permit at another time).... 

 

What I'm saying is, I don't think they can use the finding of a single lawyer working for TDOS as probable cause to perform a search.  Or even RAS for a terry stop...  

 

I think it's unconstitutional to say "Leonard is performing this otherwise legal action, but because I know had his permit revoked for an unrelated reason I find probable cause to detain and search him". 

 

I think if he can prove that at the time of the arrest they knew who he was, and specifically targeted him for arrest based solely or in part on the permit being revoked, that is going to cause them some legal issues with the arrest and any possible future civil case.

 

And all of that probably doesn't matter because I think the search was completely illegal anyhow... but if he can bring forward evidence that he was targeted because of who he was, that would probably lend some weight to a 1983 lawsuit IMHO.

Maybe we are talking two different things here but I can't see how anything above has anything to do with any lack of "due process" in his having his HCP revoked.  :shrug:

 

With regards to being "targeted because of who he was"; don't you suppose that the body armor and AR15 (even though it was in a "case" so that you could obviously tell it was an AR) had something to do with the 911 calls and being questioned by police?

 

Keep in mind that you do not have a right in Tennessee to carry a loaded firearm in public.

 

While you are allowed to carry a loaded handgun(s) in public if you have an HCP; even then, a LEO has the right to determine if you have a valid HCP if you are carrying and he knows it/sees it.

 

More importantly to this instance, whether with or without an HCP, you can't carry a loaded rifle/long gun in public so; when you walk down a city street, are wearing body armor and carrying what appears to be an AR rifle (whether it's "cased" or not) it will generate 911 calls (and SHOULD) and the police are going to respond and it really won't matter "who" you are.

 

Now, I agree that he had no legal obligation to answer questions but there is a difference between not answering questions and being purposely confrontational and uncooperative.  When you completely refuse to cooperate or answer any questions at all, coupled with the body armor, the apparent rifle and the location; I believe an officer has plenty of probable cause for a complete search of anything on him/is being carried.

Edited July 31, 2013 by RobertNashville

[DaveTN]

So you wouldn't view me walking up to you and telling you I banged your wife as an act of aggression? Cool. What's your wife's number?

This won't end well.

How did we get from this dirtbag trying to get stopped and searched to this?

[DaveS]

Mike, how does it matter what Leonard is about...  Did he force the police to do something that may have been illegal and unconstitutional?  No.  The simple truth is police officers and other 'public servants' need to be held to a higher standard because of the authority we give them to write and enforce the laws.

 

I personally feel we need to charge and bring to trial every unconstitutional action by public employees, and that we should enforce the maximum penalty whenever they're found guilty.  I know that is a crazy notion to hold people accountable for their unlawful actions no matter how "well intended" they may have been.

 

I don't see anyway Leonard gets convicted, I seriously doubt they'll even allow this case to be brought to trial.

 

And while I don't like the guy (yes I've met him in person as well), I hope he makes a pretty penny off of any illegal or unconstitutional actions by the police that day...

 

I realize I'm a crazy libertarian, but is it really wrong to expect the government to honor their written social contract with us all while robbing me of my money to pay for them?  Somedays I get so frustrated by all the gun loving sheeple on the Internet ;)

 

Mike, do me a favor and watch this video, it tells you why libertarians are so dangerous:)

 

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbNFJK1ZpVg 

How in the world could you even want to question LE for stopping this idiot? He got what he wanted....and I hope he gets what he don't want too!

 

DaveS

[DaveTN]

but opening a locked container without a warrant, how do you justify that?

Plain view and exigent circumstances. It won’t surprise me if the DA or a Judge kicks it over them not getting a warrant, but I doubt you would find many cops that would let him continue walking. The cops did their job; now it’s up to the DA and courts to do theirs.

[Oh Shoot]

I don't know, but what was the outcome of his past episodes with the law?

 

DaveS

 

Brief history, mostly accurate I believe:

 

- Never been arrested before

- Apparently lost his HCP back in '08 for a while due to Order of Protection taken out against him, OOP was later dismissed, HCP returned.

- Had his HCP revoked (or suspended, don't remember which term TNDOS used) after the Belle Meade Navy Pistol Incident, then did not show for the appeal hearing

- Lost suit against Radnor Lake LEO, and the appeal

- Lost suit against State of TN regarding constitutionality of the HCP (can't remember if it also went to appeal)...

- Received an 01 FFL and class 3 SOT

- Now this

 

- OS

[DaveTN]

I don't know, but what was the outcome of his past episodes with the law?
 
DaveS

His HCP was revoked by the state.
Then the Feds gave him an FFL.

[DaveS]

He's lucky he didn't get :taser:  for refusing to follow instructions. His luck may not be so good next time.

 

DaveS

[DaveS]

His HCP was revoked by the state.
Then the Feds gave him an FFL.

That's nice. Left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Imagine that... I remember a bunch of crap in the past with him, but never really followed it.

Thanks for the info.

 

DaveS

[TGO David]

I'm amused by how many times the acronym "IANAL" has been used in this thread.

[Dustbuster]

just watched his "video", he should have complied to the point of decompressing concern for safety,that cop gave him every chance to reduce suspicion of ding a ling having the capability of causing eminent harm to others.Hes lucky he didnt pull this crap in some redneck town,or in the northeast....ACLU should put him through electric shock treatment for flunking " I know my rights 101"..... :shake: 

 

dipstick should have put a cork gun in that friggin kydex case,locked the kydex case and should have left his suppressor home.I respect someone with knowledge,not someone who thinks they can stick their bare hand in a blender to show they're faster than bruce lee......abby hoffman had balls,this cat gets the ron white unfixable stupid award.. :screwy: at least he kept his hands on his head to avoid becoming a bullseye........he says call his lawyer,he should have dropped a name, he didn't, surprised he didnt say john herbison or perry march....I guess the grand finale will be him showing up on the border of a school zone after school starts this week........

Edited July 31, 2013 by Dustbuster

[JayC]

Dave,

 

This is probably the most scariest statement you've made all day...  "It was probably an illegal search, but you won't find many cops who wouldn't have done the illegal search anyhow?!?"

 

And this doesn't concern you in the least?

 

They had a lot of choices available to them...  they had possession of the case, how long would it have taken to get a warrant, less than an hour? They could have followed Leonard around and made sure he wasn't committing any crimes?  Or better yet, realize after 20 minutes of him playing his LEO trap game, that he was trying to get them to violate the law and constitution and let him go before falling for it?

 

I've been there when law enforcement officers needed a warrant to search a house, it took longer to DRIVE to the courthouse to pick up the warrant than it did to fill it out and get a judge to sign it.... and here they're basically 4 or 5 blocks from the courthouse when all this goes down?

 

Plain view and exigent circumstances. It won’t surprise me if the DA or a Judge kicks it over them not getting a warrant, but I doubt you would find many cops that would let him continue walking. The cops did their job; now it’s up to the DA and courts to do theirs.

[Lumber_Jack]

I'm amused by how many times the acronym "IANAL" has been used in this thread.

 

 

I am not a lawyer :D, but couldnt he be charged with "distrubing the peace" or "insighting a panic" or something similar.  It doesnt have to be a violation of carrying a weapon.  If I go into a theater and yell fire, I can be arrested and charged.  If I have a verbal argunment inside my residence that is so loud it disturbes my neighbors, I can be arrested and charged.  

[mikegideon]

I'm amused by how many times the acronym "IANAL" has been used in this thread.

 

But, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express :)

[Chucktshoes]

This won't end well.

How did we get from this dirtbag trying to get stopped and searched to this?

A little over the top? Probably, but I think it illustrates my point pretty effectively that TMF's argument that saying that sort of thing isn't an aggressive act is complete bunk.

[TripleDigitRide]

I am not a lawyer :D, but couldnt he be charged with "distrubing the peace" or "insighting a panic" or something similar.  It doesnt have to be a violation of carrying a weapon.  If I go into a theater and yell fire, I can be arrested and charged.  If I have a verbal argunment inside my residence that is so loud it disturbes my neighbors, I can be arrested and charged.  

If that were the case, who's to say that someone OCing his or her 1911 through Wal-Mart couldn't be considered the same thing. While carrying an AR and wearing a bullet proof vest is much less common, It's a very slippery slope.

Edited July 31, 2013 by TripleDigitRide

[mikegideon]

His HCP was revoked by the state.
Then the Feds gave him an FFL.

 

I wonder if any concerned citizens have forwarded the video of this last episode to the ATF? I wonder if Metro officials have made a call to them? I'm thinking Lenny's new Kydex molding skills may come in handy when he can't sell guns anymore.

[peejman]

But they are both symbolism, which elicits emotional responses from sheep. The argument is to get rid of all the
emotion that the symbolism causes. Remember, emotions are a poor substitute for reason. That doesn't mean I
am defending his actions because I suspect he is up to no good, anyway, but when you become emotionally charged
and don't allow reason to get involved in the process, you have succumbed to only authority and that's a poor excuse
for life.

It's that liberty being substituted for safety because fear rules, something Franklin or one of those guys wrote that
gets quoted all the time, ya know?

I don't disagree. There's the school of thought that a right unexercised isn't a right anymore. But Leonard is an attention whore with an agenda. Unfortunately he's fairly smart too. Guys like him simply take advantage of the fact that we have a legal system rather than a justice system.

[DaveTN]

Dave,

 

This is probably the most scariest statement you've made all day...  "It was probably an illegal search, but you won't find many cops who wouldn't have done the illegal search anyhow?!?"

 

And this doesn't concern you in the least?

 

They had a lot of choices available to them...  they had possession of the case, how long would it have taken to get a warrant, less than an hour? They could have followed Leonard around and made sure he wasn't committing any crimes?  Or better yet, realize after 20 minutes of him playing his LEO trap game, that he was trying to get them to violate the law and constitution and let him go before falling for it?

 

I've been there when law enforcement officers needed a warrant to search a house, it took longer to DRIVE to the courthouse to pick up the warrant than it did to fill it out and get a judge to sign it.... and here they're basically 4 or 5 blocks from the courthouse when all this goes down?

Don’t put words in my mouth; no way I said “it was probably an illegal search”. I said it wouldn’t surprise me if they kick it. No way would I have let him walk away. No, you are not free to leave. Yes, you are being detained.  He had plastic wrapped around an AR to intentionally make it obvious it was a weapon; it was plain view. He’s been ruled a potential danger to the public. A cop would be derelict in their duty if they let this guy walk away without making sure he was not carrying a loaded weapon.

[c.a.willard]

I dont think the search would be viewed by a court as illegal mainly due to the form fitting nature of the "Rifle case" if you can call that abomination a case.  The case makes it appear as if a magazine is inserted into the rifle  Carrying a loaded firearm is illegal.  So the officer had plenty of reason to detain him to make that determination.  It would be reasonable for a police officer to assume given his dress (body armor) and general demeanor that the rifle was loaded.  Opening the case was required to confirm or deny that it was loaded.  Once the case was opened they saw a suppressor that mr embody was unable to provide documentation for.  he was arrested on that charge.  Once he provides documentation for the suppressor then the charges will likely be dropped, but providing said documentation is his responsibility not the police officers. 

 

for those still in doubt lets look at the definition for probable cause

 

"a reasonable amount of suspicion, supported by circumstances sufficiently strong to justify a prudent and cautious person's belief that certain facts are probably true"

 

Due to the fact that they may be dealing with an armed individual it is reasonably prudent to conduct a search of the rifle case based upon the probable cause that definately existed to ensure public safety. 

 

No way a judge is throwing that search out, not that it will ever see a court room because mr embody will provide the required documentation for the suppressor.

[DaveTN]

I wonder if any concerned citizens have forwarded the video of this last episode to the ATF? I wonder if Metro officials have made a call to them? I'm thinking Lenny's new Kydex molding skills may come in handy when he can't sell guns anymore.

I doubt he’s selling many guns. This stunt will put his FFL at risk. I wonder if that wasn’t intentional so he can try to use it to show a loss.

[Lumber_Jack]

If that were the case, who's to say that someone OCing his or her 1911 through Wal-Mart couldn't be considered the same thing. While carrying an AR and wearing a bullet proof vest is much less common, It's a very slippery slope.

 

 

I see a pretty clear distinction myself

[DaveTN]

A little over the top? Probably, but I think it illustrates my point pretty effectively that TMF's argument that saying that sort of thing isn't an aggressive act is complete bunk.

TMF is a respected member here; I hope he doesn’t take your bait.

[mikegideon]

TMF is a respected member here; I hope he doesn’t take your bait.

 

Bah. I doubt if those two could hurt each other anyway. :) They would leave some good stains on the walls and carpet, though  :rofl:

[MacGyver]

His HCP was revoked by the state.
Then the Feds gave him an FFL.

And people wonder how terrorists blow up planes without ever raising an alarm...

[Chucktshoes]

TMF is a respected member here; I hope he doesn’t take your bait.

I hope he doesn't take the blatant flame bait either, I hold TMF in fairly high regard myself. Other than his willingness to accept battlefield tactics applied stateside (reference the drone debates) he seems like a cat I could have a beer with. No matter much someone is respected, they say something dumb or make a really crap argument. This was one of those cases. :D

Bah. I doubt if those two could hurt each other anyway. :) They would leave some good stains on the walls and carpet, though :rofl:

:lol: Edited August 1, 2013 by Chucktshoes