voldemort at it again

[mikegideon]

I was about to say that it's a little early for the angry whiskey, but not if your shift ends in the morning.

 

No whiskey. I just hate that guy.

[Chucktshoes]

And it shouldn't be. This situation is a matter of context. If I see a guy with a rifle slung walking somewhere I would probably assume he is moving his rifle and didnt have a case to put it in. If I see a guy with a rifle slung wearing body armor I'm going to assume he is on the first leg of a shooting spree. It's all about context.

See, I might see the same thing and think he is a mall ninja doing exercise. What's his demeanor? Gonna take that into account as well. Too many variables to list, gonna trust my gut. Of course all of that is moot with regard to the police actions, they knew who they were dealing with.

[mikegideon]

See, I might see the same thing and think he is a mall ninja doing exercise. What's his demeanor? Gonna take that into account as well. Too many variables to list, gonna trust my gut. Of course all of that is moot with regard to the police actions, they knew who they were dealing with.

 

Yes they did, and you can bet that there was an attorney advising their actions. If Lenny thinks he's smart enough to duke it out with the city of Nashville, he may be in for some schoolin'.

 

EDIT: ... again

Edited August 1, 2013 by mikegideon

[TMF]

See, I might see the same thing and think he is a mall ninja doing exercise. What's his demeanor? Gonna take that into account as well. Too many variables to list, gonna trust my gut. Of course all of that is moot with regard to the police actions, they knew who they were dealing with.

Well now I'm specifically referring to inciting panic. You might see him as a mall ninja, but the average person doesn't have the firearms community background that you do. Just like there aren't many road flare enthusiast, but the ones who are wouldn't interpret someone with road flares on their chest as a suicide bomber.

But you have to admit, the average person would absolutely see him as an active shooter, and Leonard knew that. In fact, he was counting on it because he wanted people to call the cops on him.

[TripleDigitRide]

I understand the anger and frustration towards Leonard, but I'm slightly perplexed by the desire for physical violence and death. He's one guy doing something that many obviously consider stupid and possibly threatening to our already eroding 2A rights, and some feel the solution is violence. On the other hand, when those who truly hold the fate of our 2A rights in the palm of their hands make a serious and in-our-face play to further erode said rights, you answer by stocking up on .22 LR.

[Chucktshoes]

Yes they did, and you can bet that there was an attorney advising their actions. If Lenny thinks he's smart enough to duke it out with the city of Nashville, he may be in for some schoolin'.

EDIT: ... again

The bad part is that he doesn't have to do battle with the entire city at once, he only has to keep probing until he finds the wrong officer on the wrong day and then, cha-ching! The taxpayers lose.

[TMF]

I understand the anger and frustration towards Leonard, but I'm slightly perplexed by the desire for physical violence and death. He's one guy doing something that many obviously consider stupid and possibly threatening to our already eroding 2A rights, and some feel the solution is violence. On the other hand, when those who truly hold the fate of our 2A rights in the palm of their hands make a serious and in-our-face play to further erode said rights, you answer by stocking up on .22 LR.

This has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment. He is just trying to get rich quick off the gov. He is no different than any other locust that seeks to get on the gov tit. The aggravating factor is this guy is using our cause and our community as his platform for his crusade for the gov dollar. That pisses me off, a lot.

So when I say that I'll find it amusing when he gets shot dead is the same as me finding it amusing when anyone else wins the Darwin Award. I see those posted a lot, and most folks seem to get a kick out of that. What makes this moron any different?

[mikegideon]

I understand the anger and frustration towards Leonard, but I'm slightly perplexed by the desire for physical violence and death. He's one guy doing something that many obviously consider stupid and possibly threatening to our already eroding 2A rights, and some feel the solution is violence. On the other hand, when those who truly hold the fate of our 2A rights in the palm of their hands make a serious and in-our-face play to further erode said rights, you answer by stocking up on .22 LR.

 

Threatening somebody with a weapon is aggravated assault. That's how I view Lenny's actions, no matter how skilled he is at working the law to get away with it. I write my legislators, support the NRA, and other truly lawful things to fight the anti's. I'm not going to threaten them with an AR. I was raised better.

[JayC]

TMF, I haven't seen anybody argue that the police officer didn't have enough RAS for a terry stop...  Nor has anybody suggested that asking questions, or chatting with him to try and get a feel if he really does plan on shooting somebody...

 

I've only questioned the search without a warrant as questionable and at least one prior officer on this forum has agreed the search may get kicked.  And questioned the arrest on ground Leonard claims they had a copy of the NFA paperwork on the silencer at the time of the arrest.

 

I suspect the department is going to have further problems with this arrest if a civil lawsuit is filed, since they stopped (using 10-15 officers reportedly) him 10 to 15 minutes before and let him go, and then approached him again and detained him a second time.  At the second stop, it appears the Commander knows who Leonard is based on some of the comments I heard on the part 2 video.  

 

I believe they're going to have a hard time explaining what changed between the first terry stop, and the second terry stop that not only gave them new RAS to stop him, but suddenly gave them PC to force open a locked container which they didn't have 15 minutes beforehand?

 

Also, does this open the department up to a harassment claim since maybe they targeted him a second time just because of his previous 'legal' protests with law enforcement?

 

I'm assuming you watched the video posted, do you really believe that the Commander thought he was dealing with a person about to become an active shooter, or somebody that was just doing stuff to piss the police off when they arrested him?

 

People have suggested if he had just told the police the weapon wasn't loaded, opened the case up and allowed the to inspect his firearm to verify that, and shown them the NFA paperwork he wouldn't have been arrested...  There is a real problem with that line of thinking.

 

We live in a world with Bronies, who is anyone to say that being a road flare enthusiast is wrong, or for that matter, who is to say you're trying to simulate a bomb?

Just like the argument I see where folks seem to act like Leonard isn't presenting himself as an active shooter.... he is wearing body armor whilst carrying what appears to be a loaded AR15. The only time you see that is at the range, a war zone or an active shooter. For someone to make the automatic assumption that he is about to go on a shooting rampage is akin to saying my road flares on my chest are a bomb.

 

[JayC]

God help you if you ever look in my truck on an average day, you'd think I was on the first leg of a shooting spree too then ;)  Nobody is sugesting you can't be concerned, we're just suggesting the police not arrest somebody if they aren't breaking any law.

 

And in this case nobody is suggesting Leonard broke a single law.

 

And it shouldn't be. This situation is a matter of context. If I see a guy with a rifle slung walking somewhere I would probably assume he is moving his rifle and didnt have a case to put it in. If I see a guy with a rifle slung wearing body armor I'm going to assume he is on the first leg of a shooting spree. It's all about context.

Edited August 1, 2013 by JayC

[TMF]

TMF, I haven't seen anybody argue that the police officer didn't have enough RAS for a terry stop... Nor has anybody suggested that asking questions, or chatting with him to try and get a feel if he really does plan on shooting somebody...

I've only questioned the search without a warrant as questionable and at least one prior officer on this forum has agreed the search may get kicked. And questioned the arrest on ground Leonard claims they had a copy of the NFA paperwork on the silencer at the time of the arrest.

I suspect the department is going to have further problems with this arrest if a civil lawsuit is filed, since they stopped (using 10-15 officers reportedly) him 10 to 15 minutes before and let him go, and then approached him again and detained him a second time. At the second stop, it appears the Commander knows who Leonard is based on some of the comments I heard on the part 2 video.

I believe they're going to have a hard time explaining what changed between the first terry stop, and the second terry stop that not only gave them new RAS to stop him, but suddenly gave them PC to force open a locked container which they didn't have 15 minutes beforehand?

Also, does this open the department up to a harassment claim since maybe they targeted him a second time just because of his previous 'legal' protests with law enforcement?

I'm assuming you watched the video posted, do you really believe that the Commander thought he was dealing with a person about to become an active shooter, or somebody that was just doing stuff to piss the police off when they arrested him?

People have suggested if he had just told the police the weapon wasn't loaded, opened the case up and allowed the to inspect his firearm to verify that, and shown them the NFA paperwork he wouldn't have been arrested... There is a real problem with that line of thinking.

I don't disagree with anything there. Maybe I'm blurring here the panic he was intentionally inciting and the officers actions after detaining him. I've said from the start that I don't believe he will walk away from this convicted. I do think there is a chance that they will be able to articulate PC though. At least enough to defeat any lawsuit he comes back with.

[TMF]

God help you if you ever look in my truck on an average day, you'd think I was on the first leg of a shooting spree too then ;) Nobody is sugesting you can't be concerned, we're just suggesting the police not arrest somebody if they aren't breaking any crime.

And in this case nobody is suggesting Leonard broke a single law.

Ninja please, there is a big difference between what we have in our houses/trucks and what we strap on our bodies. I am not a hoplophobe by any means. I've been surrounded by hundreds of former al Qaeda fighters armed with everything from AKs, machineguns and RPGs without a great deal of uneasiness. It remains all about context.

[TripleDigitRide]

I understand the anger and frustration towards Leonard, but I'm slightly perplexed by the desire for physical violence and death. He's one guy doing something that many obviously consider stupid and possibly threatening to our already eroding 2A rights, and some feel the solution is violence. On the other hand, when those who truly hold the fate of our 2A rights in the palm of their hands make a serious and in-our-face play to further erode said rights, you answer by stocking up on .22 LR.

Threatening somebody with a weapon is aggravated assault. That's how I view Lenny's actions, no matter how skilled he is at working the law to get away with it. I write my legislators, support the NRA, and other truly lawful things to fight the anti's. I'm not going to threaten them with an AR. I was raised better.

Mikey, Mikey, Mikey! Legally carrying a gun is now aggravated assault? What size does the gun have to be before OCing becomes aggravated assault? I'm pretty sure I've seen a guy or two packing dual wheel guns with barrels the size of an average AR. :lol:

Seriously though, We have to be very careful here. While I have never openly carried an AR, nor do I plan on it, but I don't was anyone telling me that I can only carry a gun fits within their size limits.
Edited August 1, 2013 by TripleDigitRide

[Guest 6.8 AR]

You have, what seems to me, to be an odd definition of narcissism.

 

A narcissist has an inflated sense of their own importance and a deep need for admiration and attention - they believe they're superior to others and have little regard for other people. To me, that definition perfectly describes his actions. Now, I'm not psychologist either and I don't pretend to know the man well enough to make a diagnosis even if I were a psychologist but based on his actions, I believe my calling him a narcissist is certainly reasonable.

 

Then again, I suppose I could have just said that he believes the world revolves around him with the Earth's axis running through his ass and out the top of his head.

I really don't care what you call him. I disagreed with you, okay?

[Chucktshoes]

Well now I'm specifically referring to inciting panic. You might see him as a mall ninja, but the average person doesn't have the firearms community background that you do. Just like there aren't many road flare enthusiast, but the ones who are wouldn't interpret someone with road flares on their chest as a suicide bomber.

But you have to admit, the average person would absolutely see him as an active shooter, and Leonard knew that. In fact, he was counting on it because he wanted people to call the cops on him.

I do agree on his intent, I think I already mentioned that. People were alarmed, they called police and then they intervened. Two different groups of folks with different ROE. Even though he intentionally dressed in a manner to elicit concern and draw a police intervention, if he did not break any laws, he has to be allowed to continue on his way. I would have been ok with him getting cuffed and stuffed for whatever the charge is for inciting a panic. Let the courts work out whether or not that one would stick, but I think the officers would have been covered for making that arrest. They didn't make that arrest, maybe they know something we don't on that front, but I think that would have been a reasonable course of action to everyone. I know I wouldn't have to find myself appearing to defend the assnugget.

[TMF]

I do agree on his intent, I think I already mentioned that. People were alarmed, they called police and then they intervened. Two different groups of folks with different ROE. Even though he intentionally dressed in a manner to elicit concern and draw a police intervention, if he did not break any laws, he has to be allowed to continue on his way. I would have been ok with him getting cuffed and stuffed for whatever the charge is for inciting a panic. Let the courts work out whether or not that one would stick, but I think the officers would have been covered for making that arrest. They didn't make that arrest, maybe they know something we don't on that front, but I think that would have been a reasonable course of action to everyone. I know I wouldn't have to find myself appearing to defend the assnugget.

Well I'm still on the fence on whether or not they acted wrongly. It is a matter of opinion right now that the case shaped like a loaded AR15 combined with his wearing of body armor didn't give them PC to determine if it was in fact loaded. I know what you're going to say in response to that, but I'm going to wait to hear what they have to say in court. I agree with the premise of your argument, but if they can articulate to I'm willing to accept that too. Edited August 1, 2013 by TMF

[Guest nra37922]

Shame we are even having this conversation involving this 'fruitcake'.  2nd amendment says what the 2nd says but the woosification of this country started a long time ago and I doubt, short of a true SHTF event, if it will ever turn back.  Thank God we had a 'Greatest Generation' that still could tell a gun from their asshole else we would all be speaking German and/or Japanese.

[mikegideon]

Mikey, Mikey, Mikey! Legally carrying a gun is now aggravated assault? What size does the gun have to be before OCing becomes aggravated assault? I'm pretty sure I've seen a guy or two packing dual wheel guns with barrels the size of an average AR. :lol:

Seriously though, We have to be very careful here. While I have never openly carried an AR, nor do I plan on it, but I don't was anyone telling me that I can only carry a gun fits within their size limits.

 

I know you better than that. Even if you did openly carry an AR, you wouldn't go out of your way to create panic. The AR was the smaller part of the statement. The armor was the bigger part. I guess I just miss the old days, when you could get smacked in the mouth just for being a douchebag. Seems like folks behaved a little better back then.

[Dane]

Is a locked briefcase with a seam patched with duct tape locked or unlocked? My reading of SCOTUS case law on locked containers is the intent of the owner that matters... not how easy it would have been to defeat the case or the lock.

I'd tend to say locked, because it took them 1 or 2 minutes to 'rip' the case open enough to see it had a silencer on it, and they never got it open enough to verify there was not a round chambered according to the police. We'll have to see what a judge says when the civil case is brought and the city asks for summary judgment.

Because, if what Leonard says is true that they had the paperwork in their hands before arresting him, there is no way this goes to criminal court.

Does a case that is taped shut constitute a "locked" case? According to one of the documents from the police the lock only held the chamber shut.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Here is a copy of the affidavit by one of the officers where he claims the case wasn't locked but the chamber was and he will get a warrant for it later

On July 29, 2013 at approximately 1515 hours, after receiving calls from citizens about a male walking around 5th Ave & Charlotte Ave with a rifle slung. Officers observed a white male wearing body armor near 2nd Ave & Gay Street. The male also had what appeared as an AR-15 weapon wrapped in some type of a plastic material that was formed fitted to a point that anyone could identify it as a weapon. I arrived and observed several citizens watching the male. I also spoke to the male briefly who was uncooperative and refused to give any identification or say if the weapon was loaded. He

continued walking around to 3rd Ave & Deadrick Street. Several citizens told me they were alarmed by the defendant walking with body armor and a weapon. Upon being stopped at 3rd & Deadrick, the defendant was asked several times if his weapon was loaded and he would not respond. The material on the weapon made it appear as if the weapon had a large magazine inserted in the magazine well and a firearm silencer at the end ofthe weapon.

At that point, officers had to make sure that he was not carrying a loaded weapon. The defendant continued to be uncooperative and would not say if the weapon was loaded or not. I took the weapon from the defendant and the weight appeared to be the same as an actual loaded weapon. Due to the fact the defendant would not say the weapon was loaded and the weight was consistent with the weight of a loaded AR-15 weapon, the plastic wrapped

material that only secured with electrical tape, was opened to see if the weapon was in fact loaded. Once it was opened, the weapon did not have a magazine but I could not open the action to check to see if a live round was in the chamber because he had placed a wire lock around the material and I could not clear the chamber. I secured the weapon and will later obtain a warrant to fully render the weapon safe. Also, I noticed that the weapon had some type of firearm silencer attached to the weapon. The defendant refused

to answer and provide any proof of the silencer being legally possessed. Due to the defendant not having proof of a legal weapon and having an attached silencer to his weapon, he was taken into custody for the state violation of Prohibited Weapon. I showed an Alcohol, Tobacco, & Firearms (ATF)

Agent Anthony “Wayne” Kilday the silencer and his response was “it appears similar characteristics to a suppressor or silencer. However without examinations by our experts the ATF cannot determine if it is. A trooper recognized the male and he was identified through a computer check as Leonard Embody” The TCA 39-17-1302 describes prohibited weapons as “(a) A person commits an offense who intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs or sells: (5) A firearm silencer.” “39-17-1301.Part definitions. As used in this part, unless the context otherwise requires: (5) "Firearm silencer" means any device designed, made or adapted

to muffle the report of a firearm.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[mikegideon]

Interesting. So, they didn't recognize him right off the bat? I guess lenny needs more face time on TV.

[TripleDigitRide]

They claim that the case wasn't locked, but it had a lock which prevented them from being able to fully inspect the weapon.

[JayC]

Mike,

 

That is just plain silly, how can you threaten somebody with a rifle slung on your back?  Just because you have an over reaction to something somebody does doesn't mean you were threatened.

 

Threatening somebody with a weapon is aggravated assault. That's how I view Lenny's actions, no matter how skilled he is at working the law to get away with it. I write my legislators, support the NRA, and other truly lawful things to fight the anti's. I'm not going to threaten them with an AR. I was raised better.

 

[JayC]

My point was PC alone does not mean an officer has a exigent circumstance under the law to search without a warrant.  Current case law seems to indicate that PC of something generally illegal does not provide exigent circumstance for a warrantless search for a locked container.  If they thought kidnap victim or a bomb was locked in the case sure, but not sure that a firearm that may or may not be loaded is going to qualify in this case.

 

Ninja please, there is a big difference between what we have in our houses/trucks and what we strap on our bodies. I am not a hoplophobe by any means. I've been surrounded by hundreds of former al Qaeda fighters armed with everything from AKs, machineguns and RPGs without a great deal of uneasiness. It remains all about context.

 

[JayC]

Ok lets pretend for a second they had PC to open the case without a warrant via exigent circumstance...  how do you justify the arrest of having a silencer when the police had in the possession at the time of arrest the paperwork on said silencer?

 

 

Well I'm still on the fence on whether or not they acted wrongly. It is a matter of opinion right now that the case shaped like a loaded AR15 combined with his wearing of body armor didn't give them PC to determine if it was in fact loaded. I know what you're going to say in response to that, but I'm going to wait to hear what they have to say in court. I agree with the premise of your argument, but if they can articulate to I'm willing to accept that too.

 

[TMF]

Ok lets pretend for a second they had PC to open the case without a warrant via exigent circumstance... how do you justify the arrest of having a silencer when the police had in the possession at the time of arrest the paperwork on said silencer?

I thought that fact was in dispute.