voldemort at it again

[RobertNashville]

Please re watch the video that has been posted on the second encounter, it takes then over 2 minutes of ripping off 'tape' and prying the case apart before they're even able to tell the weapon has a silencer attached to it....  And they were not able to access the chamber of the firearm without tools...  I'm pretty sure that meets the standard of a locked/sealed container in United States v Strickland.

 

You also have the separate problem that the case was moved outside the reach of the suspect and I'm pretty sure that fact negates the exigent circumstance you're talking about in current case law.

Voldemort's rights were simply NOT violated.

 

He has no legal right in TN to walk down a public sidewalk carrying what looked like a loaded AR15 which is exactly what he appeared to be doing.  How you can construe that his doing so doesn't give the police probable cause to search him and everything he was carrying, including the weapon, is beyond me...of course they had probable cause because Voldemort went out of his way to appear to be breaking the law.

 

This is not a 4th amendment issue...this is just an issue of one asshole acting stupidly and recklessly.

[RichardR]

I didn't ignore it, I just think he's wrong (and I thought I said that???).

Actually JayC's comments have all been very accurate, the textbook definition of proper-procedure & supportive judicial rulings he's mentioned were identical to the education & training that I recieved.

[Fourtyfive]

Wow , while I don't support all the man's public actions , for anyone to say that the fact that he has been put on administrative leave on his job and has no income for his family is GOOD is SAD.

[TMF]

Wow , while I don't support all the man's public actions , for anyone to say that the fact that he has been put on administrative leave on his job and has no income for his family is GOOD is SAD.

Reminds me of my neighbor when he decided to conduct an unlawful and unprovoked attack for which he was charged. He wrote me a letter pleading for me to drop charges because he would lose his job and wouldn't be able to support his family.

My response was "f*** your family."

Actions have consequences, and the ball was all in Lenny's court. He CHOSE to do this and therefore he CHOSE the negative ramifications. Not only do I not feel bad for him, I'm glad he's feeling the pain because he'll now think long and hard about this if he ever plans on pulling this stunt again. I'd feel sorry for his wife, but then again she married his dumb a$$, so once again, actions have consequences. We are all the masters of our own destiny. Lenny and his wife have no one to blame but themselves. Edited August 2, 2013 by TMF

[RobertNashville]

Actually JayC's comments have all been very accurate, the textbook definition of proper-procedure & supportive judicial rulings he's mentioned were identical to the education & training that I recieved.

So?  I've read his comments...I think he's wrong; I'm sure he (and apparently you) think I'm wrong...I'll still sleep okay tonight.

Edited August 2, 2013 by RobertNashville

[Oh Shoot]

Wow , while I don't support all the man's public actions , for anyone to say that the fact that he has been put on administrative leave on his job and has no income for his family is GOOD is SAD.

 

A little harsh, true.

 

My overall take on Lenny has always been that the 2A rebel side of my has a partial grudging admiration for his antics. However that is outweighed by the fact that most of what he's done has in no way expanded firearm rights, logically could not have,  and indeed if anything has merely alienated the firearm community farther.

 

The lawsuit regarding constitutionality of the HCP I thought was worthwhile, and I didn't follow the details nor read the documentation closely, but suspect from judging the idiocy of his other windmill tilting, he handled it poorly. And the clincher was not even showing for his HCP revocation hearing -- that would have set a fairly significant legal precedent had he actually gotten it back, and been something of a coup for "all of us" instead of just "him".

 

- OS

Edited August 2, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[RobertNashville]

Wow , while I don't support all the man's public actions , for anyone to say that the fact that he has been put on administrative leave on his job and has no income for his family is GOOD is SAD.

Maybe saying it's "good" is going to too far...I'll admit that it's sad for him/his family but I can't say I feel much sympathy for him because he has absolutely no one to blame for this except himself.

 

I've no doubt that if I went around provoking police like he did I'd be out of a job too (and I'd expect to be)...it's embarrassing to the company when one of their employees acts like an idiot and it becomes publicized; I'm not at all surprised that they took action to separate themselves from his foolishness.

[mikegideon]

Wow , while I don't support all the man's public actions , for anyone to say that the fact that he has been put on administrative leave on his job and has no income for his family is GOOD is SAD.

 

I have no sympathy for him. He went out of his way to make his own bed. He's a carbuncle. His family needs to trade him in on a new one.

[RobertNashville]

I have no sympathy for him. He went out of his way to make his own bed. He's a carbuncle. His family needs to trade him in on a new one.

Wow...even I'm not that mean...

 

You old coot.

[Oh Shoot]

What was his job, anyway? Male nurse or similar, maybe, seems I heard once?

[mikegideon]

Wow...even I'm not that mean...

 

You old coot.

 

Sorry. Well, not really.

[Oh Shoot]

I have no sympathy for him. He went out of his way to make his own bed. He's a carbuncle. His family needs to trade him in on a new one.

 

Gadzooks, he said carbuncle,  forsooth a particularly loathsome pustule indeed!

 

- OS

[mikegideon]

Gadzooks, he said carbuncle,  forsooth a particularly loathsome pustule indeed!

 

- OS

 

I knew it wouldn't get past you :)

[JayC]

Robert, let me say this again slowly....

Just because you have probable cause does not mean you do not need a warrant to search.

The rule of thumb is that ALL searches require a warrant based on probable cause signed by a judge. There are exceptions to this rule of thumb which are referred to as exigent circumstances. Now some of those exceptions are big and some of them are small, but unless you meet all of the requirements of a specific exception federal guideline state you should get a warrant before performing the search.

I took the time to quote directly from the federal training manual on searches involving locked containers, and gave you a federal case on point having to do with searches similar in nature to the one we are discussing that we're ruled unlawful. You've hf at least one trained police officer confirm that my cites generally match with their training on the subject.

Yet you still 'feel' I'm wrong....

Only a judge can determine if a search was conducted lawfully... But this search as documented by the YouTube video, and screen grabs from the news media raises some serious questions about the search.

But, more importantly we no longer have to guess as to what the probable cause was in this case since we have a copy of the officers report. Have you read that report?

In the report the officer claims he was able to tell by the weight of an unknown model of firearm that this specific firearm was loaded, and therefore he believed he had probable cause to search.

Now I hope we can both agree that nobody can tell whether an unknown model of firearm is loaded or unloaded by just it's weight? That no reasonable person could make such a claim nor could anybody have specialized training to determine this firearm was or wasn't loaded by weight alone. And what makes the claim even more laughable is the officer was completely wrong, not only was the firearm not loaded it didn't even have a magazine in the case.

Now can we all think of other ways the police could have come up with probable cause? Sure I can think of many different ways, but none of those mater because we know with 100% certainty the exact probable cause the search was based on, and at best it is laughable.

So, the search even with probable cause was questionable at best under federal guidelines for searching locked or sealed containers....

And the documented probable cause is a joke, because nobody could tell be weight if the firearm was loaded or not.

Voldemort's rights were simply NOT violated.
 
He has no legal right in TN to walk down a public sidewalk carrying what looked like a loaded AR15 which is exactly what he appeared to be doing.  How you can construe that his doing so doesn't give the police probable cause to search him and everything he was carrying, including the weapon, is beyond me...of course they had probable cause because Voldemort went out of his way to appear to be breaking the law.
 
This is not a 4th amendment issue...this is just an issue of one asshole acting stupidly and recklessly.

[mikegideon]

Robert, let me say this again slowly....

Just because you have probable cause does not mean you do not need a warrant to search.

The rule of thumb is that ALL searches require a warrant based on probable cause signed by a judge. There are exceptions to this rule of thumb which are referred to as exigent circumstances. Now some of those exceptions are big and some of them are small, but unless you meet all of the requirements of a specific exception federal guideline state you should get a warrant before performing the search.

I took the time to quote directly from the federal training manual on searches involving locked containers, and gave you a federal case on point having to do with searches similar in nature to the one we are discussing that we're ruled unlawful. You've hf at least one trained police officer confirm that my cites generally match with their training on the subject.

Yet you still 'feel' I'm wrong....

Only a judge can determine if a search was conducted lawfully... But this search as documented by the YouTube video, and screen grabs from the news media raises some serious questions about the search.

But, more importantly we no longer have to guess as to what the probable cause was in this case since we have a copy of the officers report. Have you read that report?

In the report the officer claims he was able to tell by the weight of an unknown model of firearm that this specific firearm was loaded, and therefore he believed he had probable cause to search.

Now I hope we can both agree that nobody can tell whether an unknown model of firearm is loaded or unloaded by just it's weight? That no reasonable person could make such a claim nor could anybody have specialized training to determine this firearm was or wasn't loaded by weight alone. And what makes the claim even more laughable is the officer was completely wrong, not only was the firearm not loaded it didn't even have a magazine in the case.

Now can we all think of other ways the police could have come up with probable cause? Sure I can think of many different ways, but none of those mater because we know with 100% certainty the exact probable cause the search was based on, and at best it is laughable.

So, the search even with probable cause was questionable at best under federal guidelines for searching locked or sealed containers....

And the documented probable cause is a joke, because nobody could tell be weight if the firearm was loaded or not.
 

 

It wasn't an unknown model of firearm, thanks to Lenny's custom shrink wrap case. It was an AR. Are you aware that a loaded 30 round mag weighs a full pound, which is real significant with a 6 pound rifle? Somebody real familiar with AR's can make a pretty good guess that it's loaded or unloaded just by weight. In this case, it doesn't matter if the guess was wrong. It only matters that it felt like loaded weight.

[DaveTN]

let me say this again slowly....

Just because you have probable cause does not mean you do not need a warrant to search.

The rule of thumb is that ALL searches require a warrant based on probable cause signed by a judge. There are exceptions to this rule of thumb which are referred to as exigent circumstances. Now some of those exceptions are big and some of them are small, but unless you meet all of the requirements of a specific exception federal guideline state you should get a warrant before performing the search.

I don’t care what you have quoted: you are wrong. Rarely is a warrant needed on the search of a person or a vehicle; it certainly isn't the "rule of thumb". Whether or not there was PC or whether or not he was an immediate threat will be dealt with in front of a Judge; not argued on the street.

Goof ball has proven himself to be a very real threat. A person could not be mentally stable and do the things he has done or threatened to do the things he has threatened to do. If the news is correct he has taken this so far that he has either been suspended or fired from his job.

As a taxpayer I’m not big on paying lawsuits because of incompetence. But I fully support what these Officers did and if a jury could award him anything it would only be proof that our system is severely broken. Walking away and leaving this nutcase with a weapon that had not been checked would be incompetent. No one’s rights were violated. The people of the city of Nashville were being threatened by an intentional display designed by a deranged mind to scare them. If any Police Officer fears a lawsuit enough to let that happen; they are in the wrong job.

I’m ashamed that he is a gun owner and I’m ashamed that friends and people at work have asked me what’s up with this nutcase because they think he’s some kind of pro 2nd supporter. He’s a dirt bag trying to make a buck off the system; maybe the system will destroy him.

[JayC]

Mike,

 

There is a lot of variance in different model AR's, a carbon fiber lower and upper vs a heavy milled lower and upper can have a weight different of more than 1 lbs, and that doesn't include any other features of the firearm (such as the stock,  front handguard/rails, silencer and other addons, etc).  Not to mention the unknown weight of the case itself...  I've never seen a kydex rifle case before, and I have no clue how heavy it is, have you every held a kydex rifle case?

 

The variables that you can't see are greater than the weight of 30 rounds of ammo...  So no reasonable person could tell if the firearm was or wasn't loaded by weight alone in this situation.

 

It wasn't an unknown model of firearm, thanks to Lenny's custom shrink wrap case. It was an AR. Are you aware that a loaded 30 round mag weighs a full pound, which is real significant with a 6 pound rifle? Somebody real familiar with AR's can make a pretty good guess that it's loaded or unloaded just by weight. In this case, it doesn't matter if the guess was wrong. It only matters that it felt like loaded weight.

 

[Patton]

I don’t care what you have quoted: you are wrong. Rarely is a warrant needed on the search of a person or a vehicle; it certainly isn't the "rule of thumb". Whether or not there was PC or whether or not he was an immediate threat will be dealt with in front of a Judge; not argued on the street.Goof ball has proven himself to be a very real threat. A person could not be mentally stable and do the things he has done or threatened to do the things he has threatened to do. If the news is correct he has taken this so far that he has either been suspended or fired from his job.As a taxpayer I’m not big on paying lawsuits because of incompetence. But I fully support what these Officers did and if a jury could award him anything it would only be proof that our system is severely broken. Walking away and leaving this nutcase with a weapon that had not been checked would be incompetent. No one’s rights were violated. The people of the city of Nashville were being threatened by an intentional display designed by a deranged mind to scare them. If any Police Officer fears a lawsuit enough to let that happen; they are in the wrong job.I’m ashamed that he is a gun owner and I’m ashamed that friends and people at work have asked me what’s up with this nutcase because they think he’s some kind of pro 2nd supporter. He’s a dirt bag trying to make a buck off the system; maybe the system will destroy him.

Exactly, exigent circumstances carries a lot of weight while you are on public streets and in this situation these officers can testify to their firearm expertise.

[mikegideon]

Mike,

 

There is a lot of variance in different model AR's, a carbon fiber lower and upper vs a heavy milled lower and upper can have a weight different of more than 1 lbs, and that doesn't include any other features of the firearm (such as the stock,  front handguard/rails, silencer and other addons, etc).  Not to mention the unknown weight of the case itself...  I've never seen a kydex rifle case before, and I have no clue how heavy it is, have you every held a kydex rifle case?

 

The variables that you can't see are greater than the weight of 30 rounds of ammo...  So no reasonable person could tell if the firearm was or wasn't loaded by weight alone in this situation.

 

Once again, I disagree. I have five AR-15's, and they're all different. I'm a reasonable person, that owns a bunch of AR's. Carbon fiber? Really?

[mikegideon]

Exactly, exigent circumstances carries a lot of weight while you are on public streets and in this situation these officers can testify to their firearm expertise.

 

That's what I've been trying to say. It would be highly unlikely that they're not all AR-15 users.

[RobertNashville]

Robert, let me say this again slowly....
 

let me say this again...slowly...I understand your reasoning...I believe your reasoning is flawed and, therefore, I don't agree with it.

Edited August 2, 2013 by RobertNashville

[TMF]

That's what I've been trying to say. It would be highly unlikely that they're not all AR-15 users.

 

... and perhaps reading this thread having a good laugh.

[Rightwinger]

Everybody quiet down.....I gotta go to sleep.  Some of us work 3rd shift ya know.

[mikegideon]

... and perhaps reading this thread having a good laugh.

 

Yep

[mikegideon]

Everybody quiet down.....I gotta go to sleep.  Some of us work 3rd shift ya know.

 

You wouldn't have to work third shift if you would just take a correspondence course in lawyerin'. You can start right here in this thread :)