voldemort at it again

[Chucktshoes]

How well that container is locked plays a major role in determining the legality of the search itself.  There is specific case law that addresses the nature of locked containers and the test for searching them is officers can not search containers so well sealed that a weapon could not be obtained.  This case from looking at the pictures on Voldemort's website clearly show that you can still gain access to the weapon by separating the kydex even if it is locked.

Accepting what you said at face value, the case/rifle were secured enough that the officers were unable to open the chamber.

[Fourtyfive]

What kind of case can you not eventually separate ? It had a lock that needed a key to totally open.

[Fourtyfive]

I am not putting Leonard on a pedestal and worshipping him , but I think this time he has actually had OUR rights violated. Edited August 2, 2013 by Threeeighty

[JayC]

Mike,  you're putting words in my mouth...  I've never said Leonard will or deserves to get anything lawsuit wise from this encounter.

 

You continue to equate my critical questions about the legality of the search and arrest, into some form of support for what Leonard did...  I'm not a Leonard fan by any stretch of the imagination...  I just don't think the police officers crossed their t's and dotted their i's during this arrest, and there is virtually no chance of a conviction...  And some of their actions and/or statements may increase possible civil liabilities.

 

The police department and the DA's office will waste $5k+ on this incident even if they dismiss the case tomorrow...  and the meter keeps on ticking everyday they delay dismissing the case... a case I have yet to hear anybody here say they think the DA's office have any chance of winning.

 

You have to remember that even if Leonard just filed a 1983 suit and acts as his own attorney it will end up costing the taxpayers of Nashville tens of thousands of dollars in legal costs even if the suit is killed in summary judgement, that amount is likely to increase to $100,000+ if he survives summary judgement, which is not out of the question.

 

Now what do you think the chances are Leonard is going file a 1983 lawsuit?  I'd say given his past history nearly 100%, the chance of him surviving summary judgement is probably pretty low, but there is a chance...  All of that money wasted and he never gets in front of a jury let alone collects a single penny.

 

I'm one of those Nashville taxpayers that is footing the bill on this little adventure...  Is it really all that crazy of me to want my local police department to not cut corners and follow all the rules when dealing with a douchebag who is trying to get them to overreact and break the rules so he can cost me money?

 

As I've said, they should have never made contact with him the minute they realized who he was (and my impression is that the Commander in the 2nd encounter knew exactly who he was dealing with), they should have had a couple of officers follow him at a distance, and wait for him to clearly break the law, or get bored that he wasn't causing the police to overreact and go home.  Why?  Because the end result would have been a lot less of MY tax money going to feed this douchebag's ego and lawsuit fishing program.

 

Leonard won't get squat out of this. Jay explained, in excruciating detail, how HE thinks it should work. Now... watch what actually happens.

 

[c.a.willard]

You dont have to open the chamber.  only be able to access a weapon.  For a kydex case like this if you can pry it up at all and touch the gun that can loosely be viewed as access to a a weapon.  More importantly if you can pry it up enough by hand to access the trigger area you can fire the gun and that is definitely access.    I don't know for sure if this is the case with leonards kydex contraption but from viewing photos i think that it is a possibility that he could access the weapon even while locked.

 

 

I am trying to remember the particular case.  I remember that it was a supreme court ruling originating in NY.  Ill have to look it up for more info.

 

 

More likely than all of this is that the officers will claim a public safety officer safety exception to the warrant requirements.  In that they were dealing with an individual in body armor with access to what appeared to be a loaded rifle i think the courts would grant that.  Again none of this is materially important because lenny will eventually provide the paperwork and the charges will be dropped.    He is probably waiting for as long as possible on that so that he can rack up damages in the form of his business being temporarily shut down.

 

Terry V Ohio  “Though the police must whenever practicable secure a warrant to make a search and seizure, that procedure cannot be followed where swift action based upon on-the-spot observations of the officer on the beat is required.” The officer for safety reasons was justified in conducting a limited pat search of the suspect’s outer garments for a weapon"

 

Although this search is obviously more than a pat down search, the event was still a public safety issue that required swift action based upon on the spot observations.  Since they were attempting to limit their search to ensuring only that the weapon was unloaded.  I think it would sill fly.  But IANAL  (had to put that in the :)  )

[mikegideon]

Mike,  you're putting words in my mouth...  I've never said Leonard will or deserves to get anything lawsuit wise from this encounter.

 

You continue to equate my critical questions about the legality of the search and arrest, into some form of support for what Leonard did...  I'm not a Leonard fan by any stretch of the imagination...  I just don't think the police officers crossed their t's and dotted their i's during this arrest, and there is virtually no chance of a conviction...  And some of their actions and/or statements may increase possible civil liabilities.

 

The police department and the DA's office will waste $5k+ on this incident even if they dismiss the case tomorrow...  and the meter keeps on ticking everyday they delay dismissing the case... a case I have yet to hear anybody here say they think the DA's office have any chance of winning.

 

You have to remember that even if Leonard just filed a 1983 suit and acts as his own attorney it will end up costing the taxpayers of Nashville tens of thousands of dollars in legal costs even if the suit is killed in summary judgement, that amount is likely to increase to $100,000+ if he survives summary judgement, which is not out of the question.

 

Now what do you think the chances are Leonard is going file a 1983 lawsuit?  I'd say given his past history nearly 100%, the chance of him surviving summary judgement is probably pretty low, but there is a chance...  All of that money wasted and he never gets in front of a jury let alone collects a single penny.

 

I'm one of those Nashville taxpayers that is footing the bill on this little adventure...  Is it really all that crazy of me to want my local police department to not cut corners and follow all the rules when dealing with a douchebag who is trying to get them to overreact and break the rules so he can cost me money?

 

As I've said, they should have never made contact with him the minute they realized who he was (and my impression is that the Commander in the 2nd encounter knew exactly who he was dealing with), they should have had a couple of officers follow him at a distance, and wait for him to clearly break the law, or get bored that he wasn't causing the police to overreact and go home.  Why?  Because the end result would have been a lot less of MY tax money going to feed this douchebag's ego and lawsuit fishing program.

 

I just think you're going way deeper than they're gonna go. I think Douchemort wasted his time again, unless he found a new love while he was locked up. If the cops did make some kind of minor error, they're just gonna go oops. Piss on Lenny.

[Fourtyfive]

Slippery slopes have been forded before but I believe this time a case has been opened for the wrong reasons , no pun intended.

[JayC]

Please re watch the video that has been posted on the second encounter, it takes then over 2 minutes of ripping off 'tape' and prying the case apart before they're even able to tell the weapon has a silencer attached to it....  And they were not able to access the chamber of the firearm without tools...  I'm pretty sure that meets the standard of a locked/sealed container in United States v Strickland.

 

You also have the separate problem that the case was moved outside the reach of the suspect and I'm pretty sure that fact negates the exigent circumstance you're talking about in current case law.

 

How well that container is locked plays a major role in determining the legality of the search itself.  There is specific case law that addresses the nature of locked containers and the test for searching them is officers can not search containers so well sealed that a weapon could not be obtained.  This case from looking at the pictures on Voldemort's website clearly show that you can still gain access to the weapon by separating the kydex even if it is locked. 

 

[mikegideon]

Please re watch the video that has been posted on the second encounter, it takes then over 2 minutes of ripping off 'tape' and prying the case apart before they're even able to tell the weapon has a silencer attached to it....  And they were not able to access the chamber of the firearm without tools...  I'm pretty sure that meets the standard of a locked/sealed container in United States v Strickland.

 

You also have the separate problem that the case was moved outside the reach of the suspect and I'm pretty sure that fact negates the exigent circumstance you're talking about in current case law.

 

Lighten up counselor. :) This case ain't on the docket yet. My money says it never will be.

[Fourtyfive]

Briefs were filed yesterday.

[JayC]

Public safety exception (and officer safety exception) goes out the window the instant they separate the suspect from the sealed container if they believe the sealed container holds a firearm.  A firearm in a sealed (even crappy) container is of no threat to the public or the officers once it is outside the reach of the suspect.

 

There are very few limited situations where public/officer safety exception would be allowed on a container separated from the suspect...  for example if the police believed the container contained a bomb...  but if that was the case, the police officer failed to follow SOP of a suspected bomb in trying to open the container...  and more importantly the officer's own report contains no claim of a public safety exception.

 

Have you read the officers report?  He documents exactly what he thought the probable cause was to open the container.

 

He claimed that he could tell from the weight that the container held a LOADED firearm.  

 

Now, do you believe that you could tell whether an unknown AR15 model in an unfamiliar closed container was or was not loaded based solely on the weight of that firearm?

 

Because that is what the officer in question wants us to believe was his probable cause that the firearm in that case was a loaded and not an unloaded firearm.

 

More likely than all of this is that the officers will claim a public safety officer safety exception to the warrant requirements.  In that they were dealing with an individual in body armor with access to what appeared to be a loaded rifle i think the courts would grant that.  Again none of this is materially important because lenny will eventually provide the paperwork and the charges will be dropped.    He is probably waiting for as long as possible on that so that he can rack up damages in the form of his business being temporarily shut down.

 

Terry V Ohio  “Though the police must whenever practicable secure a warrant to make a search and seizure, that procedure cannot be followed where swift action based upon on-the-spot observations of the officer on the beat is required.” The officer for safety reasons was justified in conducting a limited pat search of the suspect’s outer garments for a weapon"

 

Although this search is obviously more than a pat down search, the event was still a public safety issue that required swift action based upon on the spot observations.  Since they were attempting to limit their search to ensuring only that the weapon was unloaded.  I think it would sill fly.  But IANAL  (had to put that in the :)  )

 

[mikegideon]

Briefs were filed yesterday.

 

Really! I hope he loses his house this time.

[c.a.willard]

 

Please re watch the video that has been posted on the second encounter, it takes then over 2 minutes of ripping off 'tape' and prying the case apart before they're even able to tell the weapon has a silencer attached to it....  And they were not able to access the chamber of the firearm without tools...  I'm pretty sure that meets the standard of a locked/sealed container in United States v Strickland.

 

You also have the separate problem that the case was moved outside the reach of the suspect and I'm pretty sure that fact negates the exigent circumstance you're talking about in current case law.

 

 

I'm not sure exactly how long the search took. total just that it took about 2 minutes to get to the point they saw the suppressor.  They may very well have been able to access the trigger in a matter of seconds. 

 

More importantly i was listing that as one of several possible exceptions that the police have.  Again the one they will most likely claim is a public safety/officer safety exception.  Separating the case from his reach does not necessarily negate the officers ability to search it.  It was within his reach when they took possession of it.  And i'm sure there intent was that if there was no danger to return it to his possession.  The only way for them to determine that Leonard was not a danger was to search the case.

 

 

As i've said before Leonard has no interest in having the charges immediately dropped.  If he did the DA's office would have received a copy of proof that he legally owned the suppressor.  He wants to make this take as long as possible in the hopes of a nice fat lawsuit.

 

Which he's guaranteed to loose, if nothing else because the officers will likely be covered under qualified immunity.    For the officers not to be covered they would have to reasonably have known that there actions were unlawful.  I think if you poll law enforcement officers; you will find some that agree and some that disagree with the lawfulness and some that just aren't sure.  But in cases like that where it is an iffy judgment call benefit of the doubt goes to the police officer.

[Oh Shoot]

What kind of case can you not eventually separate ? It had a lock that needed a key to totally open.

 

No it didn't.

 

The picture I  keep seeing in the news accounts is the one from Kwik's website, not a shot of the rifle on scene.

 

The one he had with him, the case was apparently sealed only with gaffer tape, not a lock.

 

The lock was some kind on the rifle itself, prevented racking bolt.

 

- OS

Edited August 2, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[TripleDigitRide]

Long live Zimmerman!

[Fourtyfive]

Really! I hope he loses his house this time.

Whatever , I only know this because I picked up a pistol today , you don't have to hold it against me.

[mikegideon]

Long live Zimmerman!

 

and the little twerp at the DUI stop.

[Oh Shoot]

Really! I hope he loses his house this time.

 

Somebody reported he lost his real job, so that may be afoot.

 

- OS

[mikegideon]

Somebody reported he lost his real job, so that may be afoot.

 

- OS

 

Good

[Fourtyfive]

Somebody reported he lost his real job, so that may be afoot.
 
- OS

This is true.

[RobertNashville]

Robert did you completely ignore every single thing that Jay's posted? Or just the vast majority of it?

Egads man, please re-read Jay's posts again, he describes exactly how the process is supposed to work & exactly how it was mishandled.

I didn't ignore it, I just think he's wrong (and I thought I said that???).

[c.a.willard]

It was probably something along the lines of an omega rifle chamber lock  http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Products/1166080.htm

[mikegideon]

I didn't ignore it, I just think he's wrong (and I thought I said that???).

 

You're pretty smart for a old fart :)  

[TMF]

Somebody reported he lost his real job, so that may be afoot.



- OS

This is true.

Good or bad, actions have consequences. That is life.

[Oh Shoot]

It was probably something along the lines of an omega rifle chamber lock  http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Products/1166080.htm

 

Well, if it was that, a chambered lock, all on scene were too dumbass to understand that there couldn't be a round in there if the lock is in the chamber?

 

 

 

'Course, that's not what they arrested him for, so I guess that's moot.

 

- OS

Edited August 2, 2013 by Oh Shoot