Small cal / large cal, handgun / long gun

[JAB]

For the question, I've ruled out shotguns because of the bulkiness of the ammo. By volume, one 3" shotgun shell might equal about 30 22lr rounds or something like that.

 

It is your thread and your question so you can rule out anything you want.  That said, I believe that the weight/bulkiness of shotgun ammo is often waaaay overstated and should not be used as a 'main' criteria.

 

Yeah, so one 3 inch 12 gauge shell might equal multiple .22LR rounds.  Guess what, though, that one shotgun shell has the potential to be more 'effective' than even multiple .22LR rounds.  Also, I personally don't usually even buy 3 inch shells as, for most of my needs, a 2 3/4 inch shell is probably going to work just as well.  Further, .22LR ammo is kind of a 'one trick pony'.  Okay, not just one trick - sure there are shotshells (I've shot a mouse - a little mouse - out of a tree with a .22 using shotshells and had to shoot it, again, once it was on the ground to put it out of its misery so shotshells do NOT turn your .22 into a shotgun.)  Sure there are quiet rounds like colibris, etc. (which may well be one of the biggest advantages of a .22LR.)  For the most part, though, the average shooter is going to be pretty limited in what he or she can do with a .22LR.

 

Now, let's look at that big, bulky shotgun shell.  It might be a field load that can be used to take small game, sometimes even on the run.  It might be a buckshot load that would be great for close range personal protection or even for close-in hunting of medium to large game (currently, use of buckshot for most if not all hunting applications is illegal in TN but, again, we are talking about an emergency, SHTF situation where laws may no longer apply.)  I mean, there is a reason it is called buckshot, right? Of course, that round might be a slug which with practice would allow one to reach out to, I would think, at least the effective lethal range of a .22LR but with a much larger/heavier projectile.

 

Because of the versatility discussed, above - and depending on the situation - I might even go so far as to say that I'd rather have a mixed bag of 100 to 150 'bulky' shotgun shells than 500 or so .22LR rounds.  I mean, honestly, how much shooting do you really think you will be doing?  I'd rather have fewer rounds but know that each shot will be more effective.

 

Another thing the 'bulky' argument overlooks is the existence of the .410 shotgun.  2 3/4 inch .410 shells aren't that bulky, at all.  However, the field loads still offer the benefits of scatter shot (although with less margin for error due to the smaller 'payload.)  There is buckshot available in .410.  Finally, .410 slugs are perfectly capable of taking white-tailed deer sized game if the shooter does his or her part.  The .410 is often maligned and considered 'under-powered'.  While perhaps 'under-powered' when compared to a 12 gauge, we must consider that the term is relative.  The following ballistics chart is for Winchester Super-X 2 3/4 inch .410 slugs, taken from the Winchester ammo website:

 

http://www.winchester.com/Products/shotshell-ammunition/Performance/Super-X-Shotshell/Pages/X41RS5.aspx

 

 

Shotshell Ballistics Distance(yds) Velocity(fps) Energy(ft.lbs.) Trajectory

                                    Muzzle                1830              651  

                                      25                                                                         0.3

                                      50                      1318             338                      0,0

                                      75                                                                        -1.9

                                    100                      1025              204                    -5.8

                                     125                       946              174                   -12.0

 

I don't know about you but to me 651 ft.lbs. of energy at the muzzle and 204 ft.lbs. of energy even at 100 yards doesn't seem all that shabby.  Heck, 174 ft.lbs. at 125 yards doesn't seem like something to sneeze at.  Certainly greater than any .22LR round of which I am aware - all in a shotgun shell that isn't really that much more bulky or heavy than many rifle rounds or even some big bore handgun rounds.  So, IMO, in a SHTF situation a .410 with an assortment of shells + a handgun (probably a .357 but possibly a 9mm for higher capacity) > any setup involving any .22LR + another gun.

Edited July 31, 2013 by JAB

[MiddTennTaco]

I would look to old west pioneers for wilderness wisdom. I would consider .22 hunting a last resort (especially being unreloadable). You'd be better off learning to trap in a wilderness survival situation.

I'd just take one gun, a Ruger GP100 6" .357 mag revolver with a 6 inch barrel OR a lever rifle in the same caliber. They shoot both .38 spl and .357 magnum loads. They will literally last an infinite mix of either. What's good about the two calibers is that they are the easiest to reload with either modern powder or black powder that you may eventually have to resort to making yourself, factory boolits or home-cast.

You can shoot regular .38 spl or snake shot for small to REALLY small game (birds included) and .357 mag loads for large game at a distance. Not to mention you can easily defend yourself against the two legged types with a .357 mag.

Forget the second gun, take more ammo. Lol

[JAB]

I would look to old west pioneers for wilderness wisdom. I would consider .22 hunting a last resort (especially being unreloadable). You'd be better off learning to trap in a wilderness survival situation.

 

For that matter, in this part of the country, a good, portable set of basic fishing tackle would probably provide one with a more steadily reliable source of protein with less effort expended than any firearm.  Not even going for the 'big ones' so much as working the rocks, etc. in shallows from the bank to catch several of the fairly easily caught, small fellahs like bluegill, etc.  Too bad I'm not that crazy about eating fish more than every once in a while.  Then, again, if it is that or starve I imagine some panfish would start tasting pretty darned good.

[MiddTennTaco]

Trap & Fish***

[RichardR]

Again, not discussing the merits of a shotgun.

Well pardon the #### out of me, how was I supposed to know that your extensive experience with super-soakers, nerf-sharpshooters & airsoft-guns trumps my 35+ years of actual hunting experience?

[TrickyNicky]

:rofl: this thread is finally starting to deliver! :rofl:

[Guest The Itis]

My knowledge of Nerf guns is about as relevant to the question as your knowledge of shotgun hunting.
If you get personally offended because you couldn't comprehend the question, then maybe you should hunt less and read more. :shake:

[RichardR]

My knowledge of Nerf guns is about as relevant to the question as your knowledge of shotgun hunting.
If you get personally offended because you couldn't comprehend the question, then maybe you should hunt less and read more. :shake:

I tell you what, how about you go spend an hour hunting rabbits with a shotgun & then spend an hour of hunting rabbits with a .22LR, come back post your results.

At least then you'll have a whole 2 hours hunting experience under your belt before you argue with me over which one is a more effective "game getter".

[rugerla1]

:popcorn:

[Guest The Itis]

I'm not arguing with you, you're just being irrelevant and abrasive. If you have nothing relevant to say in this thread, don't post.

Make your own thread if you want to espouse the virtues of a shotgun for game getting over a 22lr as if someone actually disagrees with you.

[RichardR]

I'm not arguing with you, you're just being irrelevant and abrasive. If you have nothing relevant to say in this thread, don't post.
Make your own thread if you want to espouse the virtues of a shotgun for game getting over a 22lr as if someone actually disagrees with you.

My mistake, I thought I was posting in the "survival" subforum, not the "guess how many .22LR's can I fit into a pack!" forum.

I won't try to prevent you from slowly starving yourself to death any longer, seriously, what was I thinking? Of course you should load up your pack with the smallest, cheapest, single least effective cartridge commercially availible!

[Guest The Itis]

Right, because this thread wasn't talking about carrying two guns or anything like that. :ugh:

I've hunted just fine with a 22lr, but I'm aware some people need a shotgun to be able to hit anything. :rofl:

[Sidinman]

Right, because this thread wasn't talking about carrying two guns or anything like that. :ugh:

I've hunted just fine with a 22lr, but I'm aware some people need a shotgun to be able to hit anything. :rofl:

Richard I think he is saying that hes a better shot than you. :rofl:

[RichardR]

Richard I think he is saying that hes a better shot than you. :rofl:

Welp since he's in Jackson he's welcome to come go hunting with me sometime, I'm guessing that iffin he got a little first hand-experience in the field with a shotgun he'd understand exactly why everyone said "shotgun" as the long-gun choice..

[RobertNashville]

 It's odd how defensive and argumentative someone can get when, on the day they join the forum they ask a question, ostensibly looking for information and opinions, and then get bend out of shame because the information and opinions the person gets wasn't the information and opinions they were hoping for. :screwy:

[RobertNashville]

Welp since he's in Jackson he's welcome to come go hunting with me sometime, I'm guessing that iffin he got a little first hand-experience in the field with a shotgun he'd understand exactly why everyone said "shotgun" as the long-gun choice..

what do you hunt? Anything specific?

 

I tend to hunt clay pigeons myself; usually easy to find and drop but they taste horrible no matter how long I cook them ;)

[JAB]

Guys, I don't think that The Itis is saying shotguns are worthless.  Instead, he posed a hypothetical question that went something like, "IF you were on the move in a SHTF situation and IF you could only carry two guns and IF one of them were going to be a .22LR and IF one would be a long gun and the other a handgun and IF neither of them could be a shotgun, THEN what would be your setup?"

 

Sure, the question makes no more sense - in an overall survival scenario - to many of us than if he had asked, "IF you needed to travel from Tennessee to Florida and IF you don't want to use any mechanical conveyance and IF you also do not want to use any animal-powered conveyence and IF you don't want to utilize any waterways THEN what brand of walking shoes would be best?"  Sure, just like in my example, his question disqualifies many superior choices but that was his question.  Heck, I remember something from my Philosophy classes about being able to discuss a subject even if the parameters were wrong by having everyone agree to accept the parameters and go from there.  Something like, "IF unicorns existed, they would _____."  Not a realistic question, really, but possibly an interesting mental exercise - just like the question posited by the OP.

 

Now, I admit that I did bring up a couple of points to disagree with him on shotguns, too, but that was only because he stated the reason for omitting shotguns as being the 'bulky' ammo.  I couldn't resist pointing out that, if such were his only reason, it really wasn't as 'valid' a reason as some folks seem to believe.  Yeah, I also couldn't resist stating my opinion that .22WMR would be superior to LR in a survival/subsistence situation.  But calling him names because we aren't working within the parameters of his original question is probably a bit over the top.

Edited August 1, 2013 by JAB

[JAB]

what do you hunt? Anything specific?

 

I tend to hunt clay pigeons myself; usually easy to find and drop but they taste horrible no matter how long I cook them ;)

 

I often find myself hunting my keys.  By the time I find them, I sometimes want to shoot the b@st@rds.  If I did, I'd probably use a shotgun.

[RobertNashville]

Guys, I don't think that The Itis is saying shotguns are worthless.  Instead, he posed a hypothetical question that went something like, "IF you were on the move in a SHTF situation and IF you could only carry two guns and IF one of them were going to be a .22LR and IF one would be a long gun and the other a handgun and IF neither of them could be a shotgun, THEN what would be your setup?"

 

Sure, the question makes no more sense - in an overall survival scenario - to many of us than if he had asked, "IF you needed to travel from Tennessee to Florida and IF you don't want to use any mechanical conveyance and IF you also do not want to use any animal-powered conveyence and IF you don't want to utilize any waterways THEN what brand of walking shoes would be best."  Sure, just like in my example, his question disqualifies many superior choices but that was his question.  Heck, I remember something from my Philosophy classes about being able to discuss a subject even if the parameters were wrong by having everyone agree to accept the parameters and go from there.  Something like, "IF unicorns existed, they would _____."  Not a realistic question, really, but possibly an interesting mental exercise - just like the question posited by the OP.

 

Now, I admit that I did bring up a couple of points to disagree with him on shotguns, too, but that was only because he stated the reason for omitting shotguns as being the 'bulky' ammo.  I couldn't resist pointing out that, if such were his only reason, it really wasn't as 'valid' a reason as some folks seem to believe.  Yeah, I also couldn't resist stating my opinion that .22WMR would be superior to LR in a survival/subsistence situation.  But calling him names because we aren't working within the parameters of his original question is probably a bit over the top.

Good post and I agree.

 

I do think, however, that complaining on this forum about people not following your particular, proscribed desire for a thread is a bit ridiculous...there is probably not a single thread on this forum that didn't stray off the intended course at one point or another.  Even more silly to complain, I think, is when the question posed doesn't seem to make much logical sense. ;)

[JAB]

Good post and I agree.

 

I do think, however, that complaining on this forum about people not following your particular, proscribed desire for a thread is a bit ridiculous...there is probably not a single thread on this forum that didn't stray off the intended course at one point or another.

 

Who...us...go off topic?  You must be kidding.  :whistle:

[RichardR]

what do you hunt? Anything specific?

I tend to hunt clay pigeons myself; usually easy to find and drop but they taste horrible no matter how long I cook them ;)

Rabbits, squirrels, turkey's, ducks & geese mostly, occasionally whitetails I've scouted a few spots & I've seen plenty of freezer-sized ones, but I haven't seen a single trophy-sized buck yet..

I also like to shoot trap & skeet, but I don't know of any clubs around here to do that at though, I do have a mechanical thrower & a couple cases of clays somewhere in storage, if I can get a couple guys together it might be worth dragging out & setting up.

[Guest The Itis]

The way I see the situation:

 

I ask a question, "A or B?"

Someone responds "C"

I say, "C is not an available answer for this question"

They say "Your question is stupid and so are you. I'm going to pretend you asked a different question where my answer is correct. I'm also going to insult you and if you talk back, you are being 'defensive' and 'argumentative' because I am oblivious to my errors"
 

Out of the blue this guy accuses me of having no experience shooting, despite knowing that he has read elsewhere that I've done competitive shooting, and I'm somehow in the wrong for not letting his insult slide? Cherry-picking things out of context as if he has a point while being oblivious to how it shows he has poor reading comprehension? I throw some of his garbage back his way and now I'm a bad person for standing up for myself? That's hogwash. I had a better impression of this community before this exchange.

[RobertNashville]

The way I see the situation:

 

I ask a question, "A or B?"

Someone responds "C"

I say, "C is not an available answer for this question"

They say "Your question is stupid and so are you. I'm going to pretend you asked a different question where my answer is correct. I'm also going to insult you and if you talk back, you are being 'defensive' and 'argumentative' because I am oblivious to my errors"
 

Out of the blue this guy accuses me of having no experience shooting, despite knowing that he has read elsewhere that I've done competitive shooting, and I'm somehow in the wrong for not letting his insult slide? Cherry-picking things out of context as if he has a point while being oblivious to how it shows he has poor reading comprehension? I throw some of his garbage back his way and now I'm a bad person for standing up for myself? That's hogwash. I had a better impression of this community before this exchange.

Your charge of being called "stupid" prompted me to go back and read through the thread.

 

I can see where Richard got a bit abrasive in post No. 30. However, I'd say your response in post No. 32 was just as abrasive (or certainly could seem that way to the person it was directed to);l things only continued to worsen in succeeding posts.

I'm not defending Richard; we've had some "heated" exchanges in other threads, but as the old saying goes; it takes two to tango and frankly, you both seemed to be willing participants!

 

Further, you are certainly not the first poster on TGO to present a specific scenario seeking an answer withing narrow parameters or  who tried to control the width/breath of a thread only to be disappointed...I'm not saying it should be that way but trying to keep this group solidly on topic or on a narrowly defined path is akin to herding cats.

 

If you really feel you've been wronged then report it to the Admins; they seem to be pretty fair most of the time. ;)

Edited August 1, 2013 by RobertNashville

[RichardR]

I have no experience shooting shotguns

Cool story bro, so do you want to come kill some critters with scatter guns or not? .

[Jonsaiga]

I've been hunting, successfully too I might add, with a .22 rim-fire for over 20 years. Prior to hunting with a .22, I put many a squirrel, bird and rabbit on the table with just a lowly pellet rifle. Some personal observations over the years...... when still hunt squirrels(most prolific small game in my area) a single shotgun blast will send squirrels into hiding for at least a half hour or longer. A .22 on the other hand, especially when shooting standard velocity or subsonic ammo, they tend to return much quicker. Also, the more hunting pressure in a given area, the more the average engagement distance tends to increase as the animals are much more skittish and will bolt quicker and stay hidden longer. .22's are also not just for shooting stationary game either. I've taken countless squirrels, rabbits, possums, and raccoons from stand still to a dead run. Also have taken low flying waterfowl mid flight and off of ponds and waterways with .22's (as a minor unaware of illegalities of such things). The principle is not much different than wing shooting with a shotgun..... just a different lead distance. I've seen a lot of folks try to take game beyond the capable range of their shotgun with their given loads too which resulted in injured animals. Having lived and hunted in "shotgun" only deer hunting counties of eastern VA, I have taken a few deer only to find buckshot pellets lodged just beneath their hide from long shots(that have since healed) that should not have been taken. All that said, I don't dislike shotguns in any way. I enjoy shooting and hunting with them as much as I do all my other firearms. But like the .22, it is not the end all be all of the hunting(survival or recreational) world. They are simply tools that come with their own individual pro's and con's. Like was mentioned much earlier in this thread..... if it is a matter of survival, I prefer traps and snares over any gun any day of the week!