New cars with no spare tire (Governments fault)

[Guest TankerHC]

Last year my wife bought an Optima EX-GDI. Couple of days ago she was making a turn in a bad neighborhood coming home from work in Jackson, MS and punched a nail through the side of the tire and went flat. Called me and asked where to find the spare. Told her and she said "I already looked, looking at it right now and there is no spare there". Then I remembered an article I read in Motor Trend last year. Manufacturers are doing away with spare tires to save weight. They have to, to meet EPA Fuel mileage requirements, to sell a decent car these days they have to save on weight where they can just to come close to meeting the EPA mileage requirements and there are a lot more things that are going away in the future because of the standards the current administration is asking for.

 

Checked the Kia forums and sure enough, tons of complaints people looking and no spare tire. Not just Kia either, other manufacturers and soon getting a spare will be an option, not standard on all vehicles sold in the US.

 

Motor Trend brought this up in an article last year, and mentioned it again in the Truck of the Year review on the Ram Laramie couple of months ago.

 

Large steering wheels. No need for them with the decreased turning radius of modern suspensions.

 

Grills, no need for large grills, or any grill for that matter. The intake portion of the grill on modern vehicles is about the size of a dollar bill, the rest is decoration, expect to see them go away.

 

Shifters. Alread gone on the Ram Laramie. The Laramie has a knob shifter. Standard type shifters are just decoration and serve no real purpose, on the majority of modern cars, shifting is "Fly by wire" and you can expect to see all manufacterers follow Rams lead and move to knobs, pushbuttons and paddles.

 

Metal wheels of any type. Cost on rims will go up temporarily, metal rims replasced with composite rims, anything else will be an option. There are composite materieals stronger than steel. Expect to see metal rims go away in the not too distant future.

 

Anything metal that can be replaced with a composite, expect it to be replaced in the not to distant future.

 

Forget Tesla's 238 MPG car. Volkswagon has already (really) done it (Without the Governments help). Last month they announced they reached a goal they had been working on for over 10 years. Its this one. Its a hybrid with a diesel engine and gets 270 MPG. And will go into production. 0-60 in 12 seconds, top speed 99 MPH, 7 speed transmission and a range of 700 miles.

 

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130221/geneva/130229972

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest TankerHC]

Someone will figure out a way to make this thing go 200 MPH and kill the gas mileage all the way down to 150 or so.

[Sam1]

That's the manufacturer blaming the .gov for being cheap, it has nothing to do with meeting epa mileage requirements. And in all honesty, I would say 75% of people will never notice.  15 pounds lighter is going to make such a minuscule difference in mileage for any vehicle old or new that it would near impossible if not completely impossible to even measure.

 

It's like the difference between driving with 4 gallons of fuel in the tank or 6 gallons.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Sam1

[173rdABN]

shucks, 150 MPG and a 200 MPH car.... not sure if thats acceptable.... haha. 

 

SIGN ME UP FOR ONE IF THATS THE CASE!

[TMF]

And then the hippies plug their car into a wall which gets its electricity from burning coal. Edited July 26, 2013 by TMF

[Sam1]

And then the hippies plug their car into a wall which gets its electricity from burning coal.

 

Silly man, the electric comes from telephone poles and transformers not from coal.  It's the cleanest form of energy around

[TMF]

Silly man, the electric comes from telephone poles and transformers not from coal. It's the cleanest form of energy around

Haha, the same reason hunting should be banned. People could just go to the store where the meat is made instead of killing an innocent animal.

[Lowpower]

Perhaps if our Govt would quit selling our oil to foreign countries.......

[Guest TankerHC]

That's the manufacturer blaming the .gov for being cheap, it has nothing to do with meeting epa mileage requirements. And in all honesty, I would say 75% of people will never notice.  15 pounds lighter is going to make such a minuscule difference in mileage for any vehicle old or new that it would near impossible if not completely impossible to even measure.

 

It's like the difference between driving with 4 gallons of fuel in the tank or 6 gallons.

 

Yes it does. They EPA doesnt care about variable measurements. All they care about is one number, and the manufacture has to reach that number or be penalized. The Government, the Federal government is doing everything in it's power to wipe out the use of any kind of fossil fuels. Increased taxes at the pump, Obama before being elected POTUS said on national TV we should be paying European prices for gas, think he really gives a crap if gas hits 5 bucks a gallon? He announced a war on coal. A "War" against one of the US leading industries. There is a gas guzzler tax (The Gas Guzzler Tax is imposed on manufacturers of new cars (not minivans, sport utility vehicles or pick-up trucks) that do not meet required fuel economy levels, to discourage the production and purchase of fuel-inefficient vehicles. The tax is collected by the Internal Revenue Service and paid by the manufacturer. The amount of the tax is displayed on the vehicle’s fuel economy label (the window sticker on new cars), a CAFE standards Penalty, 5 states right now are considering milage taxes (NJ is considering .00193 per mile, which would ONLY add about 200 dollars per year to the average cost of driving a vehicle), the Fed has been (Off and On) considering a mileage tax, eventually it will come.

 

It will not bother the manufacturers, a steel wheeled spare only adds about 20 dollars to the cost of a vehicle, not meeting EPA standards the fines and penalties are far higher.

 

And the increase in cost of driving wont affect the bottom 49%, those getting food stamps, because if it gets too high, you and other taxpayers will get to pay for their gas. Congreeman Sten Hoyer started this in 08, gas stamps, same as food stamps, it's been coming up every year since and may end up becoming reality.

Edited July 26, 2013 by TankerHC

[mikegideon]

And then the hippies plug their car into a wall which gets its electricity from burning coal.

 

Haven't you heard? Obama is banning coal. The US is going to be powered by wind turbines, Hot air is an unlimited resource these days. The true cause of global warming

[Guest TankerHC]

And then the hippies plug their car into a wall which gets its electricity from burning coal.

 

 

So then the real question would be. "How do you charge your plug in car if Obama wins his War on Coal?". 

[analog_kidd]

A friend of mine has a Mini Cooper, and there isn't even a spot for a spare tire on the car. He says the cars come with Run Flat tires. The bad thing is they only lasted him something like 20,000 miles and then it cost well over $1000 to replace them. Twice! This last time, he just replaced them with regular tires and says he prays he doesn't get a flat.

[2.ooohhh]

Yes it does. They EPA doesnt care about variable measurements. All they care about is one number, and the manufacture has to reach that number or be penalized. The Government, the Federal government is doing everything in it's power to wipe out the use of any kind of fossil fuels. Increased taxes at the pump, Obama before being elected POTUS said on national TV we should be paying European prices for gas, think he really gives a crap if gas hits 5 bucks a gallon? He announced a war on coal. A "War" against one of the US leading industries.

 

 

 

It will not bother the manufacturers, a steel wheeled spare only adds about 20 dollars to the cost of a vehicle, not meeting EPA standards the fines and penalties are far higher.

 

Most new cars have come a long way from steel space saver spares. The wheels many new cars have are advanced aluminum alloys that play into vehicle dynamics far more than most drivers realize. New BMWs for example precisely monitor the rate of rotation of each of the wheels for the traction control, stability control, ABS systems and to alert the driver if a tire is going flat.(a deflating tire has a shorter radius skewing it's rotation numbers) To replace a wheel in this system the replacement need to be the same diameter and roughly the same weight, the space required to store of a full sized wheel and tire(or even a compact that will clear the brakes) is unacceptable to most owners since it is quite large. The reply from BMW was an "enhanced mobility kit" and a set of tires that can be safely driven on for 50 miles when flat.

 

 

 

There is a gas guzzler tax (The Gas Guzzler Tax is imposed on manufacturers of new cars (not minivans, sport utility vehicles or pick-up trucks) that do not meet required fuel economy levels, to discourage the production and purchase of fuel-inefficient vehicles. The tax is collected by the Internal Revenue Service and paid by the manufacturer. The amount of the tax is displayed on the vehicle’s fuel economy label (the window sticker on new cars), a CAFE standards Penalty.

 

Very few vehicles are still paying the GG tax. Last we purchased was an s600 with the v12 to say it was a gas hog would be putting it lightly. The number of cars on the list is dropping quickly as the years go by. Even the 662hp 2013 Ford Shelby GT500 gets good enough mileage to evade the GG tax. Source

 

 

 5 states right now are considering milage taxes (NJ is considering .00193 per mile, which would ONLY add about 200 dollars per year to the average cost of driving a vehicle), the Fed has been (Off and On) considering a mileage tax, eventually it will come.

 

Most states are considering this as a way to tax electric and hybrid vehicles which have made obsolete tax structures based on taxing the fuel at the pump. Source

[LagerHead]

Perhaps if our Govt would quit selling our oil to foreign countries.......

 

What would that help? Oil is a global market.

[RobertNashville]

Whatever you want to blame it on, "no spare tire" has been a pretty normal thing in many cars for quite a while now, at least a few years.

 

It saves weight and space (which means costs and MPGs).

 

However, it's been my experience that most of the vehicles offer either a full-sized or a temp spare as an option.

 

Personally, I don't like not having a spare but whether you really need one or not really depends on the consumer/situation.

Edited July 26, 2013 by RobertNashville

[2.ooohhh]

A friend of mine has a Mini Cooper, and there isn't even a spot for a spare tire on the car. He says the cars come with Run Flat tires. The bad thing is they only lasted him something like 20,000 miles and then it cost well over $1000 to replace them. Twice! This last time, he just replaced them with regular tires and says he prays he doesn't get a flat.

A bottle of tire sealant and a 12v pump will generally fix the non run-flats if the damage is repairable. Mini even offers a mobility kit like BMW's though the components can easily be sourced separately for cheaper.

 

Mini Mobility Kit

 

 

Sealant

 

Pump

[TMF]

So then the real question would be. "How do you charge your plug in car if Obama wins his War on Coal?".

Hope, change and unicorn farts, of course.

[Sam1]

Yes it does. They EPA doesnt care about variable measurements. All they care about is one number, and the manufacture has to reach that number or be penalized. The Government, the Federal government is doing everything in it's power to wipe out the use of any kind of fossil fuels. Increased taxes at the pump, Obama before being elected POTUS said on national TV we should be paying European prices for gas, think he really gives a crap if gas hits 5 bucks a gallon? He announced a war on coal. A "War" against one of the US leading industries. There is a gas guzzler tax (The Gas Guzzler Tax is imposed on manufacturers of new cars (not minivans, sport utility vehicles or pick-up trucks) that do not meet required fuel economy levels, to discourage the production and purchase of fuel-inefficient vehicles. The tax is collected by the Internal Revenue Service and paid by the manufacturer. The amount of the tax is displayed on the vehicle’s fuel economy label (the window sticker on new cars), a CAFE standards Penalty, 5 states right now are considering milage taxes (NJ is considering .00193 per mile, which would ONLY add about 200 dollars per year to the average cost of driving a vehicle), the Fed has been (Off and On) considering a mileage tax, eventually it will come.

 

It will not bother the manufacturers, a steel wheeled spare only adds about 20 dollars to the cost of a vehicle, not meeting EPA standards the fines and penalties are far higher.

 

And the increase in cost of driving wont affect the bottom 49%, those getting food stamps, because if it gets too high, you and other taxpayers will get to pay for their gas. Congreeman Sten Hoyer started this in 08, gas stamps, same as food stamps, it's been coming up every year since and may end up becoming reality.

 

None of what you posted there is relevant to how a 15 pound increase in weight lowers the mpg estimates.  The manufacturers could negate 4 times that amount by using a midget as a driver during the tests.

 

It is about manufacturer's cutting costs just like they do with everything other product on the market... Having a car that weighs 3300 pounds is going to see zero difference in any computerized testing over an identical one that weighs 3315 pounds.  you're talking about around 0.20% of a weight difference; having a more aerodynamic set of windshield wipers would make multiples of a difference over that at cruising speed lol.

[TMF]

My wife has a full sized spare on her Hyundai I bought for her a few years ago.

[jgradyc]

A bottle of tire sealant and a 12v pump will generally fix the non run-flats if the damage is repairable. Mini even offers a mobility kit like BMW's though the components can easily be sourced separately for cheaper.

 

Mini Mobility Kit

 

 

Sealant

 

Pump

That is a great idea!  I have a station wagon. It would be nice to use the full size spare compartment as a hidden location for gear.

[mikegideon]

None of what you posted there is relevant to how a 15 pound increase in weight lowers the mpg estimates.  The manufacturers could negate 4 times that amount by using a midget as a driver during the tests.

 

It is about manufacturer's cutting costs just like they do with everything other product on the market... Having a car that weighs 3300 pounds is going to see zero difference in any computerized testing over an identical one that weighs 3315 pounds.  you're talking about around 0.20% of a weight difference; having a more aerodynamic set of windshield wipers would make multiples of a difference over that at cruising speed lol.

 

Not disputing that it may be insignificant, but it's not just the weight of the tire. It's the tire/wheel, retention system. jack, and possible extra space with it's supporting structure. 

 

 

What Peej said below. He's the car engineer of the bunch. :)

Edited July 26, 2013 by mikegideon

[peejman]

It's more about a packaging and crash structure requirements than gas mileage.  They also take up precious trunk space.  It's not only the weight, packaging, and cost of the tire, it's also the jack and jack handle, the cover, and the structure in the car necessary to keep all of that breaking loose and flying around in a crash.  Spare tires are big and extremely rigid.  It's very difficult to package one in a modern uni-body construction car and have a significant impact on the crash behavior of the car. 

[peejman]

None of what you posted there is relevant to how a 15 pound increase in weight lowers the mpg estimates.  The manufacturers could negate 4 times that amount by using a midget as a driver during the tests.

 

It is about manufacturer's cutting costs just like they do with everything other product on the market... Having a car that weighs 3300 pounds is going to see zero difference in any computerized testing over an identical one that weighs 3315 pounds.  you're talking about around 0.20% of a weight difference; having a more aerodynamic set of windshield wipers would make multiples of a difference over that at cruising speed lol.

 

 

The car must be loaded to a certain percentage of it's GVWR for the EPA testing.  So yes, the weight of the spare is irrelevant but no, a midget wouldn't help either. 

[TMF]

[


The car must be loaded to a certain percentage of it's GVWR for the EPA testing. So yes, the weight of the spare is irrelevant but no, a midget wouldn't help either.

But the midget would be the only person who can reasonably fit in one of these golf carts.

[Sam1]

The car must be loaded to a certain percentage of it's GVWR for the EPA testing.  So yes, the weight of the spare is irrelevant but no, a midget wouldn't help either. 

 

 

Good to know sir, I did have a question that no one seems to be able answer (just out of curiosity), do you know if the epa allows the manufacturers to test with pure gas or do they require them to use e10?