HCP Instructors.......What's On Your "I Love Me" Wall ?

[Guest grimel]

I personally think the last line of your diatribe is completely off base. I'd have no problem giving a carry permit to any veteran with actual combat experience from a combat arms branch. I believe the state sees eye to eye with me on that one too.

Unless I've lost my mind (which happens every now and then), even combat vets have to take the class and watch the tape to learn the laws. Being a combat vet gives one exactly zero insight as to what is legal and illegal with regards to civilian carry and use of a handgun for defensive purposes.

If you are a combat arms vet you get to skip the shooting portion of the armed guard class.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Pfft... James Yeager is cooler than all of you.

[Guest Mugster]

Unless I've lost my mind (which happens every now and then), even combat vets have to take the class and watch the tape to learn the laws. Being a combat vet gives one exactly zero insight as to what is legal and illegal with regards to civilian carry and use of a handgun for defensive purposes.

If you are a combat arms vet you get to skip the shooting portion of the armed guard class.

No, a DD214 and proof of marksmanship training is all you need for a civilian HCP (one guy reported they wanted an actual scorecard). Combat is not actually required. Although they rewrite the rules every 90 days, I believe thats the current state position.

I have no idea on the armed guard class.

[robbiev]

2. I have had the honor serving with a bunch of certified studs.

I have even had the honor of instructing with some of these same studs.

None of these guys had I Love Me Walls, or wore their resume on their chest. They didnt need to.

When these guys walked onto a range, or into a classroom respect and awe was in no short supply. No need to chest thump. No need to list 47 different "high speed" schools attended. No promotion needed.

For the most part, I agree with that. It's usually the guy with the biggest mouth that actually knows the least (that seems to apply to all areas, not just guns).

The biggest issue I have is when someone touts some claim about all his credentials, how badass he is, how much experience he has, how much more about shooting he knows than I do, then when I see him shoot, I wonder how even passed the state test to get a permit. It's hard to take marksmanship training seriously when the guy giving said training is a horrible marksman.

[Guest grimel]

No, a DD214 and proof of marksmanship training is all you need for a civilian HCP (one guy reported they wanted an actual scorecard). Combat is not actually required. Although they rewrite the rules every 90 days, I believe thats the current state position.

I have no idea on the armed guard class.

Just goes to show you how little the state is really concerned with anyone knowing the laws and just wants the application fees.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

Wow. Im humbled by the awesome display of badassery here!

2. I have had the honor serving with a bunch of certified studs.

I have even had the honor of instructing with some of these same studs.

None of these guys had I Love Me Walls, or wore their resume on their chest. They didnt need to.

When these guys walked onto a range, or into a classroom respect and awe was in no short supply. No need to chest thump. No need to list 47 different "high speed" schools attended. No promotion needed.

Again, this was not my "awesome display of badassery."

A question was asked and I answered with NO bragging whatsoever...for god's sake, I made a list of a couple of classes and drew zero conclusions from that list.

How anything I wrote could be considered "chest thumping" is beyond me.

To be honest, a thread like this, started on a board that I use for commercial training purposes, I would think that it might look a little funny if I didn't make a post in it.

Edited August 17, 2008 by Todd@CIS

[BimmerFreak]

No worries Todd.

My comments were not directed specifically at you.

I dont know you, but I do see that in addition to the "let me pay you to be a badass" schools you have attended, you also serve your country in the Air Force and your community as a LEO. Good foundation to being a well rounded instructor.

(although I think its funny that you list the Active Shooter stuff...every officer (including myself) has attended this as part of their recent In Service training...Not really all that high speed IMHO )

I will say that there are others (here and all over the net) that can list 300 private sector training events, yet I doubt few of them have exchanged fire in either offensive or defensive roles.

I find it hard to take advice and direction from people that push their own warrior mindset with little or dishonorable service in that capacity. (think "get off the X")

I would be interested in attending a few of your classes. I promise to bring an open mind, and a loaded carbine

Edited to change rolls to roles....

(damn spelling/grammar nazis! )

Edited August 18, 2008 by BimmerFreak

[BigPoppa]

Well, I'm really pleased with how this thread has gone.

[BigPoppa]

yet I doubt few of them have exchanged fire in either offensive or defensive rolls.

O'Charley's has good rolls.

[TripleDigitRide]

O'Charley's has good rolls.

True dat! I had more than my fair share last night. That, and the loaded potato soup are wonderful.

[BimmerFreak]

True dat! I had more than my fair share last night. That, and the loaded potato soup are wonderful.

I can eat my body weight in loaded potato soup!

How about the black and blue salad? Ever try that with medium rare steak and extra blue cheese?

[TripleDigitRide]

I can eat my body weight in loaded potato soup!

How about the black and blue salad? Ever try that with medium rare steak and extra blue cheese?

No, I've never tried that. It does sound quite tempting, though. I've been on a diet, so a trip to O'Charley's is rare these days, but I'll be looking into the black and blue next time around.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

No worries Todd.

My comments were not directed specifically at you.

Well, then tell us who they were directed at.

I dont know you, but I do see that in addition to the "let me pay you to be a badass" schools you have attended, you also serve your country in the Air Force and your community as a LEO. Good foundation to being a well rounded instructor.

(although I think its funny that you list the Active Shooter stuff...every officer (including myself) has attended this as part of their recent In Service training...Not really all that high speed IMHO )

I'm starting to sound like a broken record here...I made no conclusions about the listed schools; take it for what it's worth. Whether you consider it high speed or not really isn't the point of this thread.

I will say that there are others (here and all over the net) that can list 300 private sector training events, yet I doubt few of them have exchanged fire in either offensive or defensive roles.

I find it hard to take advice and direction from people that push their own warrior mindset with little or dishonorable service in that capacity. (think "get off the X")

I would be interested in attending a few of your classes. I promise to bring an open mind, and a loaded carbine

LOL, based on the continued passive-aggressive snipes, I doubt it. But hey, no worries Joe.

Edited to change rolls to roles....

(damn spelling/grammar nazis! )

.

[TripleDigitRide]

I'm just wondering how many people (Average Joe/Jane) will ever use anything learned from these high dollar Special Tactic classes? Many of them seem to be a couple hundred bucks for a weekend class (not too bad), but I've seen some that would cost several hundred-$1000+.

I can see going through them if needed for employment purposes, but not so much for a regualr guy. I also can't see much of these tactics really sticking with you in the long term. In a SHTF situation, something you learned in few hour class several years ago isn't likely going to cross your mind. Then again, I guess you could always set up barrels and fake walls in your back yard, so you can practice doing summer saults with a gun in your hand to keep your skills sharp.

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I don't see 99.99% of average people ever needing/using any such tactics.

[BigPoppa]

Guys, I started this one to see what interesting schools folks had been to. That was it. Completely harmless. I now see that I have created a monster.

Todd, and I, and some of the others weren't trumpeting our "badassery". Just black and white - facts and figures - we went here when. That's all.

It wasn't designed as a "chest thumping" d**k measuring contest. As I look back and analyze, it seems we started to go off the rails around post # 9.

I'd say some of the posters on here need to watch Stripes and "Lighten up, Francis."

This thread amuses me now. Todd, can I take your carbine class ? We can thump each other's chest !!! :rock:

[Im Neero]

I taught Jeff Cooper everything he knew about guns. Before I was born. Think about it.

[BimmerFreak]

I'm just wondering how many people (Average Joe/Jane) will ever use anything learned from these high dollar Special Tactic classes? Many of them seem to be a couple hundred bucks for a weekend class (not too bad), but I've seen some that would cost several hundred-$1000+.

I can see going through them if needed for employment purposes, but not so much for a regualr guy. I also can't see much of these tactics really sticking with you in the long term. In a SHTF situation, something you learned in few hour class several years ago isn't likely going to cross your mind. Then again, I guess you could always set up barrels and fake walls in your back yard, so you can practice doing summer saults with a gun in your hand to keep your skills sharp.

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I don't see 99.99% of average people ever needing/using any such tactics.

+1

Even though Todd seems to be all pissed at me and is being really defensive here, I read his course description for his tactical carbine class, and it seems dead on.

Here is a description of one of his classes

Defensive Carbine

This 2 day course starts with a lecture on firearm safety, legalities of deadly force, proper mindset, shooting fundamentals, loading / unloading / reloading, zero trajectories, malfunction clearance, transitions to pistol, shooting while moving, shooting from various positions, use of cover, dealing with multiple threats, and gear selection.

Defensive Carbine continues with live-fire range drills that reinforce the topics covered in the classroom.

Although there are no p

So lets see, if I send my wife (no Military/LE/armed duty experience) to his class, she is going to learn;

1. basic firearms safety

2. legalities of deadly force

3. how load, fire, reduce malfunction, continue to fight or defend oneself, etc.

Pretty solid outline in my opinion, and #1&2 are JUST as (if not more) important as #3.

Basic and to the point. Sounds good for 99% of their potential clients.

What I DON'T like is all the "warrior ethos" bs and the "let us get you ready to be a one man wrecking machine" stuff that is sometimes taught by guys with zero warrior experience.

- No Todd...I don't mean you!-

If I want to learn how to conduct myself in a firefight or when engaging multiple badguys, I want to take that class from someone that has actually performed these acts. NOT from an instructor that took a class from the guy that performed these acts and is now passing on his system or tactics.

I have spent my entire adult life training to engage from an offensive standpoint. Train, gear up, go find the bad guy.

So, I am interested in attending Todd's class not because I want to know about warrior mindset (I have received lots of free training on this from .mil/.gov) but I am very interested in his insights and thoughts on civilians defending themselves at home, work, etc.

From both a TTP and legal standpoint.

One more thought; How about all of the instructors post how they have personally used the TTPs they teach?

CIS is made up of cops and Air Force cops... Cool.

The CCA guy sounds like a super cop. cool again.

Cool Hand Luke? What LE/.Mil/Private Sector "go kill the bg" stuff have you done?

Others?

*if you dont want to post for personal, operational, or whatever reason thats cool. But I think its important for people to know that the guys teaching them have actually used the TTPs they teach successfully.

[BimmerFreak]

Here's another thought; if I want to learn how to shoot a Glock upside down between my legs at a target 50m away, or how to run like a girl for cover when my boys are receiving direct fire, im going to seek out the expert.

The guy above should be reason enough to encourage everyone considering where they will spend their next "pay to train" dollar to seek out a trainer that not only has lots of cool looking diplomas, but honorable real world experience in the discipline being taught.

Edited August 18, 2008 by BimmerFreak

[strickj]

I'm just not cool enough to post in this thread,but I didn't want to feel left out!

Edited August 18, 2008 by strickj

[Guest Todd@CIS]

+1

Even though Todd seems to be all pissed at me and is being really defensive here, I read his course description for his tactical carbine class, and it seems dead on.

Here is a description of one of his classes

So lets see, if I send my wife (no Military/LE/armed duty experience) to his class, she is going to learn;

1. basic firearms safety

2. legalities of deadly force

3. how load, fire, reduce malfunction, continue to fight or defend oneself, etc.

Pretty solid outline in my opinion, and #1&2 are JUST as (if not more) important as #3.

Basic and to the point. Sounds good for 99% of their potential clients.

What I DON'T like is all the "warrior ethos" bs and the "let us get you ready to be a one man wrecking machine" stuff that is sometimes taught by guys with zero warrior experience.

- No Todd...I don't mean you!-

If I want to learn how to conduct myself in a firefight or when engaging multiple badguys, I want to take that class from someone that has actually performed these acts. NOT from an instructor that took a class from the guy that performed these acts and is now passing on his system or tactics.

I have spent my entire adult life training to engage from an offensive standpoint. Train, gear up, go find the bad guy.

So, I am interested in attending Todd's class not because I want to know about warrior mindset (I have received lots of free training on this from .mil/.gov) but I am very interested in his insights and thoughts on civilians defending themselves at home, work, etc.

From both a TTP and legal standpoint.

One more thought; How about all of the instructors post how they have personally used the TTPs they teach?

CIS is made up of cops and Air Force cops... Cool.

The CCA guy sounds like a super cop. cool again.

Cool Hand Luke? What LE/.Mil/Private Sector "go kill the bg" stuff have you done?

Others?

*if you dont want to post for personal, operational, or whatever reason thats cool. But I think its important for people to know that the guys teaching them have actually used the TTPs they teach successfully.

Pissed? No.

Defensive? Only natural when personal attacks are perceived.

BTW, thank you for the above clarification as discussed in our PMs.

PS. Regarding that Active Shooter school I listed, it is what it is, but I wouldn't consider it your average Inservice BS. It was a pretty good 3 day class.

Day 1 was a classroom study on the history of high profile events.

Day 2 was FOF training in a local school.

Day 3 was live fire at the range specifically geared towards active shooter situations and rescues.

[Guest Ramtough47]

or how to run like a girl for cover when my boys are receiving direct fire, im going to seek out the expert.

Hero Gear, Let me see if i got this right.

[1] Setting in a road block as per ordered by team leader.

[2]Receive auto gun fire that racks the all 3 cars

[3]2nd person[that would be Yeager] to return fire[ist being the backseat gunner in last car]

[4]When rear gunner in first car[that being Yeager's car] gets out and starts to engage,Yeager breaks off the X to secondary position,sets up and lays down cover fire and throw smoke.This was also SOP as practiced by that team.

And you say that is running away....wow

[Guest Verbal Kint]

You might want to search first... and see how well Yeager is liked here... or more accurately how many think he's a spineless piece of **** that left his friends to die, and then later bad mouthed them ontop of it... before you run to his defense.

There's a fairly good number of military personnel on this site that have a pretty accurate account of what actually went down, through knowing people that were involved or having it relayed back through the military community... which paints an entirely different story than Yeager would have you believe, in order to add battle credit to himself and training school.

You might want to search the net for the actual after incident reports, from both sides of the fence, and see just how much they differ... and how much of a stand up guy Yeager was after the fact.

But this is a whole other thread topic, that's been hashed out several times before. If you're really that interested you can always start a new post inquiring on opinions of said operator/trainer as to not derail this thread.

EDIT: Nevermind... after looking at some of your previous posts, I see that you attended some of his training sessions, and made mention of adopting things he's told you. Researching the facts probably wouldn't help much at this point.

Edited August 18, 2008 by Verbal Kint

[BigPoppa]

If you're really that interested you can always start a new post inquiring on opinions of said operator/trainer as to not derail this thread.

Thanks anyway, Verbal, but this thread was derailed long, long ago.

[Guest bkelm18]

or how to run like a girl for cover when my boys are receiving direct fire, im going to seek out the expert.

Hero Gear, Let me see if i got this right.

[1] Setting in a road block as per ordered by team leader.

[2]Receive auto gun fire that racks the all 3 cars

[3]2nd person[that would be Yeager] to return fire[ist being the backseat gunner in last car]

[4]When rear gunner in first car[that being Yeager's car] gets out and starts to engage,Yeager breaks off the X to secondary position,sets up and lays down cover fire and throw smoke.This was also SOP as practiced by that team.

And you say that is running away....wow

Just so you know, there is video of him running like a whipped dog. Kinda hard to say otherwise. But hey, sounds like you're a fanboi of Yeagers, and those are hard to dissuade. So carry on.

[Guest Ramtough47]

Gentlemen we are or i'm not going to drag this issue out. I am simplying stating facts. Oh by the way, i have seen the video,several times. What am i missing? Yes i have taken several classes from Tactical Response and will continue to do so. I have also taken classes from Tom Givens,Gabe Suarez,Andy Stanford,and David Blinders out of Atlanta,Ga so i do't want anyone to think i am just a "tactical response only" person. James can speak for himself and his actions. Someone here mentioned military personnel that frequent this forum.This is great,James teaches a LOT of military personnel.

I apologize if this is troublesome to some but i swear i don't understand how anyone[after seeing the video and reading AAR] can judge him that way.

Ths is all i have to say on this issue.