zimmerman

[RobertNashville]

I strongly believe that we as a nation are just one strong event crossing the line and one person/group actually stepping forward to rise up from an armed revolt.  Everyone is just kind of waiting to see who is going to do it first.

I disagree but not completely. Armed revolt?  No. But I do see the end coming and a chance at a new beginning.

 

There are $Trillions upon $Trillions of obligations of the government that it can never...NEVER meet.

 

The government has been monetizing our debt for most of Obama's reign and continues to do so at amounts most of us can't even conceive of.

 

Personal debt is beyond the ability of most people to actually pay off if they are honest with themselves.

 

One-half of the population is either completely or almost completely dependent on the other 50% (through the government) to stay alive and even of the 50% paying the bills through their taxes they are almost as dependent on various government programs and don't even realize it (or refuse to acknowledge it).

 

To say that our economy is a house of cards gives it FAR too much credit/strength...a house built of tissue paper would be a more apt analogy.

 

Anyone who knows that 2 + 2 doesn't equal 3 can understand why I say that this country will have a complete economic collapse- although I pray I'm wrong I'm now as sure that it will happen as I am that the sun will rise in the East tomorrow morning.  It will come after a time as an inevitability or it could come almost instantly with one major trigger event that could happen at any time.

 

So...armed rebellion?  No; I don't think that will happen and I don't really think it will be necessary.

 

In a collapse the so-called Federal Government will be not much more than a memory and each state will have a chance for a do-over at at some point, the individual states (or at least most of them) will have a chance to come together and reconstitute the United States as the founders intended...I don't think that will take a rebellion; at least not an armed one.

 

Of course, I could be wrong...what do I know. :panic:

[RobertNashville]

...Our country will not be taken by force. If we are going to change it, we are going to change it at the polls.

I've asked this of others who, in other settings and in other threads, have intimated that "voting" or "the polls" are the answer but I wonder; on what basis do you think that voting in different people will actually change anything?

 

No Democrat is going to change anything.

 

80% of (the establishment) Republicans aren't going to change anything any more than the Democrats will.

 

The third parties (Conservative, Libertarian or whatever the third party flavor of the moment exists) don't have enough support to even get elected; much less change anything.

 

Of the decent, conservative/libertarian, principled people who have been elected most of those have fallen comfortably into the establishment.

 

I see no candidate, let alone enough of them, to effect any change whatsoever or that they want to effect change...no one has the balls to even tread water and just stop government spending and intrusion where it is now.

 

So please tell me how the polls are going to change anything?  :shrug:

[Spiffy]

It's too late for GZ to run......Jesse is calling for the UN to conduct investigations!

[JAB]

Good thing the Patriots of the Revolutionary War never lost hope in trying to change their tyrannical conditions they lived under.

 

Nope - they just came to realize that there was no way they could 'fix' things by going through the 'proper' channels, working within the system, etc. because none of their 'rulers' had no intentions of letting go of any of their power.  They came to realize that 'the system' was weighted against them and that the only way to change things for the better was to start over with a new system.

Edited July 18, 2013 by JAB

[JAB]

I doubt it. Anyone that takes up arms against Americans will experience the same fate that would happen to a foreign country if they tried it. They would be labeled as terrorists and if any of them are left alive they would spend the rest of their life in prison.

 

I don’t think there are many that would see what happens and decide it looks like a good idea.

 

Our country will not be taken by force. If we are going to change it, we are going to change it at the polls. Many have died protecting this country and there are millions still here that will not see it taken by force.

 

If it is one or two fringe groups doing the 'taking up of arms' then you are, of course, correct.  If, however, it got to the point that many - even the majority - believed that doing so was 'the right thing to do', especially if they had the backing of at least portions of the military then it would not be a matter of our country being taken by force.  Instead, it would be a matter of taking our country BACK by force.  I do not make the mistake of romanticizing such an event nor am not saying that such a revolution would be a 'good' thing.  I am not, however, convinced that it might not prove to be a 'necessary' thing at some point.

 

We are at a point where the system is broken.  At this point, attempting to bring about change at the polls is akin to trying to keep the Titanic from sinking by having all the passengers line up with teaspoons and try to bail the water out.  That just results in a lot of effort going in to sinking, anyhow.

 

As RobertNashville has already said, though, an armed revolution probably won't be necessary.  Instead, the corrupt, over-extended system will simply implode of its own volition.

Edited July 18, 2013 by JAB

[JAB]

The '94 revolution comes to mind as well as 2010 midterm eclections.

 

And how much difference did those 'changes' really make?  We are still where we are.  We still have the Patriot Act, Obamacare, are involved in 'military actions' in areas we shouldn't even be in and are hemorrhaging money right and left for things like stopping power blackouts in South Africa.  In other words, same sh**, different politicians.  At least on the Federal level, modern elections are little more than bread and circuses designed to convince the masses that we really have some measure of control by preserving the illusion that who we vote into office makes any, real difference.  I still vote but mostly because I figure, "Why not?" and not because I am under any illusion that it will change anything.

Edited July 23, 2013 by JAB

[JAB]

I've asked this of others who, in other settings and in other threads, have intimated that "voting" or "the polls" are the answer but I wonder; on what basis do you think that voting in different people will actually change anything?

 

No Democrat is going to change anything.

 

80% of (the establishment) Republicans aren't going to change anything any more than the Democrats will.

 

The third parties (Conservative, Libertarian or whatever the third party flavor of the moment exists) don't have enough support to even get elected; much less change anything.

 

Of the decent, conservative/libertarian, principled people who have been elected most of those have fallen comfortably into the establishment.

 

I see no candidate, let alone enough of them, to effect any change whatsoever or that they want to effect change...no one has the balls to even tread water and just stop government spending and intrusion where it is now.

 

So please tell me how the polls are going to change anything?  :shrug:

 

The scariest part of all of this, to me, may be that you and I appear to be in very nearly 100% agreement on something.  Most of the time when we become involved in discussions of other issues, our thoughts/opinions are directly opposed.

 

Quick, let's find something to disagree about before I get really freaked out!

Edited July 18, 2013 by JAB

[RobertNashville]

The scariest part of all of this, to me, may be that you and I appear to be in very nearly 100% agreement on something.  Most of the time when we become involved in discussions of other issues, our thoughts/opinions are directly opposed.

 

Quick, let's find something to disagree about before I get really freaked out!

It is scary anytime we can agree on something!

 

My viewpoint of were we are now as a country hasn't come easily or quickly...but is has come.  I still have hope (and I know this will likely offend some) that God isn't done with us yet and might still intervene but without divine involvement I don't see a lot of hope.

 

As much as I dislike McCain, I think that election was the point of no return...Obama getting a second term just sealed the deal, so to speak...their agenda, which started over a hundred years ago, is now, I think, unstoppable and I think we could see this administration get pretty ugly with "patriots" as they make sure their agenda reaches its full potential; only sweeping "gun control" and amnesty for 20Million plus illegals is left for them to accomplish and they've got over three years to push for both (with a lot of "moderate" Republican help).

 

Anyway....

 

Well...are you a "Glock" or a "1911" guy...I can probably argue from either point of view.

 

Or maybe argue about what is the single best all-time weapon for home defense???

 

;)

Edited July 18, 2013 by RobertNashville

[JAB]

Well...are you a "Glock" or a "1911" guy...I can probably argue from either point of view.

 

Or maybe argue about what is the single best all-time weapon for home defense???

 

: ;)

 

Don't really care for Glocks - they just don't 'fit' me.  Not really a 1911 guy, either - they are nice and all but I don't own one.  In semiautos, I like DAO or DA/SA but I'm really mostly a revolver guy.

 

Surely there is something in the above statement that can spark a disagreement?

 

Of course, we could just argue the relative merits of completely hi-jacking an already hi-jacked thread.

Edited July 18, 2013 by JAB

[JayC]

Dave,

 

It's completely within reason that we would see another civil war or revolution from within the population again...  It only takes 3-12% of the population of any country to rise up in support of rebellion to overthrow any government.  Because of our melting pot with diverse ethnic and cultural differences, it's likely that we're much closer to the 3% end of the spectrum than the 12%.

 

Our military was barely able to handle 10,000 illiterate goat herders in a country smaller than Texas...  how on earth could they handle 100,000 or 1,000,000 rebelling in a country this size?  Oh yeah and unlike in Iraq the 'terrorists' these speak the same language, know the culture inside and out, and the entire supply system of the military and government is at risk of attack.  And if you think Green on Blue attacks cause our military to become paralyzed, just imagine blue on blue attacks.  Oh yeah, and a good number of the military will flat out refuse to fire upon their own countrymen, and some will defect to the 'terrorist' side.

 

Now that is not to say any of this would be a 'good thing', only that the military and government can't win against a population that decides it's time they go.

 

I doubt it. Anyone that takes up arms against Americans will experience the same fate that would happen to a foreign country if they tried it. They would be labeled as terrorists and if any of them are left alive they would spend the rest of their life in prison.

 

I don’t think there are many that would see what happens and decide it looks like a good idea.

 

Our country will not be taken by force. If we are going to change it, we are going to change it at the polls. Many have died protecting this country and there are millions still here that will not see it taken by force.

 

[Guest Hound]

In no way am I saying that I WANT a revolution.  What I said was merely my view on how things are going.  War is hell and I dont want to live that at home.  We would all lose someone dear to us through that.  That being said I believe our country is beyond the hope of fixing with a few votes.  This administration has shown it will do what it wants regardless of going through the proper channels.  I knew our country was going to shit but as soon as obama got elected it accelerated how far in the shitter it was by at least a half century.

 And JayC,  our military is nowhere near as incompetant as you seem to be picturing it.  The reason why there is so much trouble with goat herders is because our elected officials have elected to make the rules of engagement laughable at best.  I would compare it to muzzling an attack dog and binding its legs while still expecting it to fight.  If unleashed our military could wipe several of these countries in a matter of months. 

[RobertNashville]

In no way am I saying that I WANT a revolution.  What I said was merely my view on how things are going.  War is hell and I dont want to live that at home.  We would all lose someone dear to us through that.  That being said I believe our country is beyond the hope of fixing with a few votes.  This administration has shown it will do what it wants regardless of going through the proper channels.  I knew our country was going to #### but as soon as obama got elected it accelerated how far in the ####ter it was by at least a half century.

 And JayC,  our military is nowhere near as incompetant as you seem to be picturing it.  The reason why there is so much trouble with goat herders is because our elected officials have elected to make the rules of engagement laughable at best.  I would compare it to muzzling an attack dog and binding its legs while still expecting it to fight.  If unleashed our military could wipe several of these countries in a matter of months. 

I don't think anyone was accusing you of wanting a revolution; just trying to understand where you stand as there have been a few recent comers to TGO who really seem to want to have an armed rebellion!

 

I also don't think the U.S. Military is incompetent; not at all.  That said, it's been true through most of history that a formal military is always somewhat of a disadvantage to well-organized (and especially highly motivated) resistance fighters.  In a very real way, that had a great deal of impact in turning the tide on the Brits in the first Civil War; irregulars who didn't fight the "proper" way that the British knew.

 

Anyway...as I noted in my initial reply to you; I think the country's course is an inevitability at this point...and that makes me very sad for my young niece and nephew and all the generation that will never know what the real America was like.

[JayC]

And you think those same politicians won't place even stricter restrictions on the military when dealing with US citizens?

 

In a conventional war, our military is top of the line bar none...  but you're not talking about a conventional war...  you're talking about an insurgency on home soil...  you can not turn the military loose and allow them to break things in that environment, without at the exact same time turning more of the population against the government forces.

 

No government in the last 200 years has survived a rebellion where 5% or more of the population gives it support (not fighting just looking the other way and providing resources to the fight).  What makes you think we're special and immune to that historical reality?

 

And JayC,  our military is nowhere near as incompetant as you seem to be picturing it.  The reason why there is so much trouble with goat herders is because our elected officials have elected to make the rules of engagement laughable at best.  I would compare it to muzzling an attack dog and binding its legs while still expecting it to fight.  If unleashed our military could wipe several of these countries in a matter of months. 

 

[DaveTN]

And you think those same politicians won't place even stricter restrictions on the military when dealing with US citizens?

 

In a conventional war, our military is top of the line bar none...  but you're not talking about a conventional war...  you're talking about an insurgency on home soil...  you can not turn the military loose and allow them to break things in that environment, without at the exact same time turning more of the population against the government forces.

 

No government in the last 200 years has survived a rebellion where 5% or more of the population gives it support (not fighting just looking the other way and providing resources to the fight).  What makes you think we're special and immune to that historical reality?

Please explain to us how you think anything good could come out of a revolution in this country. In your mind who comes out running the government? How will order ever be restored? What type of government will we have? What will happen to our economy? What will other nations do?

[Guest ThePunisher]

One point that people in our country continue to forget every election time is the " term limits " rule. Our representatives certainly will never pass term limits, but they forget that it's the voters that control that process of determining how long they get to screw over their constituents. If the TGO population is an indicative sample of discontent of our representatives, then it is probably true for the most part of the majority of the country.

Starting with the 2014 elections and with our own primary races, we should send a loud voice that we the people are the ones that says who gets hired and who gets fired. Lamar should be one that's gets fired first in our state, and hopefully we can find a good opponent to vote for. There needs to be a revolution at the voting polls starting in 2014 and continuing into the 2016 elections. I know many have given up on the voting process, but that is the process of democracy, and our last hope of saving our country. If it goes into another means of revolution, everybody loses, and we lose our country we've always known. I've not given up hope yet, and hopefully most Americans have not lost hope of saving our country.

[DaveTN]

One point that people in our country continue to forget every election time is the " term limits " rule. Our representatives certainly will never pass term limits, but they forget that it's the voters that control that process of determining how long they get to screw over their constituents. If the TGO population is an indicative sample of discontent of our representatives, then it is probably true for the most part of the majority of the country.

Starting with the 2014 elections and with our own primary races, we should send a loud voice that we the people are the ones that says who gets hired and who gets fired. Lamar should be one that's gets fired first in our state, and hopefully we can find a good opponent to vote for. There needs to be a revolution at the voting polls starting in 2014 and continuing into the 2016 elections. I know many have given up on the voting process, but that is the process of democracy, and our last hope of saving our country. If it goes into another means of revolution, everybody loses, and we lose our country we've always known. I've not given up hope yet, and hopefully most Americans have not lost hope of saving our country.

I don’t agree with term limits. The people should get to elect whoever they want as often as they want to keep them. It’s hard enough to find a politician you like, let alone finding a new one ever four years. Also, who could quit their job or leave their business knowing they would be out in four years? We already have a hard time finding good Presidential candidates because those that would be good at it; don’t want the job. At the Senator and Congressman level you would reduce the pool even more. A higher turnover rate is not the answer.

[TGO David]

You know... this "neo-revolutionary" bravado is a cyclical thing.  It comes and goes on the Internet where talk is cheap and no one dies as a result of what they post, but I'm getting to the point where I'm tired of hearing it (again) and wish someone would either put up or shut up.

[Guest ThePunisher]

A higher turnover rate is not the answer.

It is when the representatives don't perform up to standards and views that they were elected for by their constituents. I'm not talking about every two or four years, I'm talking about career stooges that think they know better that the people they represent.

[Guest ThePunisher]

You know... this "neo-revolutionary" bravado is a cyclical thing.  It comes and goes on the Internet where talk is cheap and no one dies as a result of what they post, but I'm getting to the point where I'm tired of hearing it (again) and wish someone would either put up or shut up.

You are probably referring to the New Black Panthers.

[Rightdefender]

So,  I suppose we all just sit back and soothe each other by voting for some  other puppet,  doesn't matter who.  I'm not going to choose the best of the worst again.

Face it,  no one really wants to  know what happens to anyone else. Do you even know who lives around you and what their views are?  Did you ever find that a nearby neighbor was just gone? Did you care?

We're all on our own here in this "land of the free" and we better keep our mouth's  shut.

When one branch of the government can  hijack a verdict to play nice to a few lowed mouthed minority pigs at the trough, we are all screwed.

[Guest ThePunisher]

So,  I suppose we all just sit back and soothe each other by voting for some  other puppet,  doesn't matter who.  I'm not going to choose the best of the worst again.

Our is country is in the situation it is in b/c we the people that vote, went to sleep for so long and kept voting for these career stooges without even realizing they were sending our country over the cliff. Voting has consequences, and you had better get it right most of the time. It's all of us people that are at blame for the mess we are in. Our forefathers warned us to be vigilant to government tyranny, and we didn't heed their warnings.

[JayC]

Dave,

 

I've never suggested such an action is a 'good thing', nor that it will lead to something better, or even as good as what we have now...  Only that contrary to our normalcy bias, the risk of a successful insurgency is very well within reach of our current situation.  We're much more likely to end up with a Stalin, or Mao than we are another Washington.

 

I don't have a crystal ball, and the truth is nobody knows what things look like on the other side of this type of singularity event.  If history is any guide, the likely outcome of an insurgency would be a stalemate between the sides, and a political 'solution' to bring the conflict to a close, and we've seen just how well that has worked in other parts of the world.  But, again I don't know, and anything I might say is pure speculation.

 

Just because nobody can predict what would happen in the aftermath of such an insurgency/revolution, doesn't mean we can discount the possibility of an insurgency or revolution from within, nor the likely awful bloodshed that is likely to follow any such event.

 

Make no mistake, I hope to never see such a thing come to past, but it's a mistake to think we're somehow special and therefore immune from it happening, or that somehow our government or military is this unstoppable force that nothing including the will of the people can stop.  We've been shown time and time again our military is completely unable to win at 'nation building', every example except for 1 has turned into a complete train wreck over the last 75 years, and trying to do so at home would end up being a much worse failure than any before it.

 

Please explain to us how you think anything good could come out of a revolution in this country. In your mind who comes out running the government? How will order ever be restored? What type of government will we have? What will happen to our economy? What will other nations do?

 

[RobertNashville]

So,  I suppose we all just sit back and soothe each other by voting for some  other puppet,  doesn't matter who.  I'm not going to choose the best of the worst again.

Face it,  no one really wants to  know what happens to anyone else. Do you even know who lives around you and what their views are?  Did you ever find that a nearby neighbor was just gone? Did you care?

We're all on our own here in this "land of the free" and we better keep our mouth's  shut.

When one branch of the government can  hijack a verdict to play nice to a few lowed mouthed minority pigs at the trough, we are all screwed.

Unfortunately I think you are right.

 

I have a couple of like-minded friends that I would be reaching out to should something like the brown shirts start happening and I know more than a few of my neighbors (some of whom are also like-minded) because of our neighborhood watch program.

 

Even so, almost everyone in today's society is "alone"...would anyone notice if they came to get me tonight?  Eventually but not immediately.

I would, at least, like to think they would care. ;)

[RobertNashville]

Our is country is in the situation it is in b/c we the people that vote, went to sleep for so long and kept voting for these career stooges without even realizing they were sending our country over the cliff. Voting has consequences, and you had better get it right most of the time. It's all of us people that are at blame for the mess we are in. Our forefathers warned us to be vigilant to government tyranny, and we didn't heed their warnings.

I tend to agree but I don't think we can blame all of this on either the voters or the politicians...one of the reasons that government at all levels has grown out of control is the never satisfied appetite of the vast majority of Americans for more government "stuff"...even many of those of us who claim to want to be free and independent are likely far more dependent on government goodies than we are willing to admit or perhaps even realize.

Edited July 19, 2013 by RobertNashville

[East_TN_Patriot]

I keep reading how everyone is pissed off at the Republicans and the Democrats, some sort of revolutionary change is needed, but nobody wants to start that revolution as the founders of this democratic republic intended, which is through the ballot box. We all know the two major parties aren't looking out for our interests nor are they going to change, but when it comes to Election Day, virtually everyone runs to the polls and votes for one of the two major parties anyhow. When anyone suggests a third party, like the Libertarian Party, nobody will vote because "they can't win." Well no frigging wonder. The overwhelming majority of Americans have voluntarily enslaved themselves to the two major parties, which is exactly where they want you. I'm a believer in the old saying, we get the government we deserve and anyone who votes for any Republican Party or Democratic Party member is getting the tyranny they deserve. Then there is the Tea Party, which is a bunch of establishment Republicans who know how to talk a good game and dupe people into voting for them. Even the caucus' former leader Michelle Bachman made it very clear that the Tea Party Caucus was nothing more than a "repository for ideas" and that the opinions of constituents was basically meaningless.

Keep drinking the two-party Kool Aid folks. That's what they are scaring you and paying you off with government benefits to do.