Why not the 223?

[TN-popo]

I have hunted deer with .35Rem, .30.06, and .223.
I've taken more deer with .223 than any other caliber (and these were all bigger WI whitetails). Most dropped like stones, all had dropped within 20 yards.
Load selection and placement are important...as with most any caliber.

[DaveS]

I have hunted deer with .35Rem, .30.06, and .223.
I've taken more deer with .223 than any other caliber (and these were all bigger WI whitetails). Most dropped like stones, all had dropped within 20 yards.
Load selection and placement are important...as with most any caliber.

Enlighten us. Where to place the shot? What load?

 

DaveS

Edited August 7, 2013 by DaveS

[estwing]

i like the 62gr  federal fusion bullet in 223. but then I got the 50 Beowulf and that's my short range deer gun. :wave:

[DaveTN]

I guess I been listening to the guys in the gun stores to much. You know the type, those guys that have something to prove.

I wouldn’t use a .223 to hunt deer; I would use a .308 (I own both). That’s just my opinion based on many years of experience with physics and ballistics. I don’t understand your comment; what do I have to prove?

[TN-popo]

 

Enlighten us. Where to place the shot? What load?
 
DaveS

Enlighten us? If you're insinuating that I feel like some sort of expert, far from it. Nothing in my post seemed boastful.
Where to place the shot? There's no special .223 place vs any other reasonable caliber. Good shot placement on a whitetail is good shot placement on whitetail...I don't think I need to tell you that.

Load? This was back in the late 80's and early 90's. At the time, I used Federal 69gr BTHP Match for deer.
Today my choice would be different because, now, there are better loads out there (Fed TBBC, Speer Gold Dot, etc.).

[gregintenn]

I get it that some guys feel macho using a 338 magnum for 90lb does, but why do they throw off on the more than capable 223? Can someone explain this mentality?          

 

Both are capable of killing a whitetail deer, but neither, in my opinion, are great choices. Killing is done in one of two ways; 1)disabling the nervous system, or 2)shock due to blood loss. The larger and deeper a hole you can leave in an animal will on average result in a quicker kill, all other things being equal, than a smaller, more shallow hole.

 

The reason I say a 223 isn't a great choice is because it is a tiny projectile, easily deflected and stopped, and also leaves a tiny hole. This will still kill effectively with proper shot placement. From a bench, proper shot placement isn't too difficult. In field conditions when you're shivering cold, out of breath, and/or suffering from an onset of buck fever, proper shot placement is a more difficult proposition. I like the added insurance against a slightly skewed shot given by a larger projectile.

 

The reason I say the 338 Magnum isn't a great choice is that most bullets loaded for this round are tough, thick jacketed bullets designed for large thick skinned game, and often pass through a deer unexpanded, doing little damage and shock to the deer while carrying most of it's energy with it after it passes completely through the animal. You can load a thinner jacketed bullet into a 338 magnum, but at that velocity, these bullets are likely to disintegrate upon impact making only a terrible flesh wound.

[I_Like_Pie]

I guess I would be crazy to be 100% ok with archery season, but be against .223 for the same animal

Bottom line is use what you can get a consistent kill zone shot in the ranges you are comfortable with.  

 

These days everyone is convinced that the AR type rifle is something worth having and shoot them exclusively.  It is a great general purpose firearm  I am OK with this decision if that is all you can shoot.

 

But then again I prefer to take a deer rifle to go deer hunting.

 

Deer hunting these days is an expensive hobby....should be no excuse for not getting a clean shot with the tools available these days.

[nightrunner]

I believe the reason TN allowed any centerfire for deer is because of the size of deer around here. .223 is fine for TN deer but dont expect to be able to go out west and be able to take a 400lb mule deer with it either.

[Wiljo05]

I'm no expert, but this is the recipe for what I use to deer hunt with the AR.
62 gr Speer boat tail hollow point in front of 25.5 grains of H335.
I shot some ballistic gel with several rounds, and the expansion was very similar to the VMax bullets, but I've been afraid the VMax might have a higher tendency to ricochet off bone or simply explode.

I'm sure there are many other options, but this works for me. All the deer I took during gun season last year were with this combination.
The big issues are knowing your ranges, more so your effective range and shot placement. Being comfortable with a 300 yard shot with a 7mm or 300 is like being comfortable with a 150 yard shot with the AR.

You may be able to ring the steel at 500, but would you take that shot on a deer at that range? (I will leave the Midwest elk/mulie spot&stalk shots out, since that's not relevant to this topic or caliber)

[DaveS]

 

Enlighten us? If you're insinuating that I feel like some sort of expert, far from it. Nothing in my post seemed boastful.
Where to place the shot? There's no special .223 place vs any other reasonable caliber. Good shot placement on a whitetail is good shot placement on whitetail...I don't think I need to tell you that.

Load? This was back in the late 80's and early 90's. At the time, I used Federal 69gr BTHP Match for deer.
Today my choice would be different because, now, there are better loads out there (Fed TBBC, Speer Gold Dot, etc.).

I guess it didn't come out like I intended. I'm more asking that if I hit a deer with a .308 bored center through the lungs with a 150 grain soft nose and it goes 20 yards then piles up, how are you hitting one in the lungs with .223 and dropping it like a stone? Is it bullet speed? Design? That's kind of what I was asking. Neck shots on deer or pigs with almost any caliber will drop them kicking. That's all I was asking. I didn't mean to offend you.

 

DS

Edited August 8, 2013 by DaveS

[gregintenn]

I guess it didn't come out like I intended. I'm more asking that if I hit a deer with a .308 bored center through the lungs with a 150 grain soft nose and it goes 20 yards then piles up, how are you hitting one in the lungs with .223 and dropping it like a stone? Is it bullet speed? Design? That's kind of what I was asking. Neck shots on deer or pigs with almost any caliber will drop them kicking. That's all I was asking. I didn't mean to offend you.

 

DS

This is purely speculation on my part because I have never shot a deer with a 223. I expect the violent expansion of the average soft point 223 bullet into the lungs/heart area would cause a great deal of shock and damage and be an instant killer, while the 308 would expand some, but not as much, and cause less damage on a clean pass through shot.

The kicker for me is that in the event you miss the shot a bit and hit the shoulder, the 308 would penetrate and do much more damage than the 223, which would likely only cause a severe surface wound.

You may be flawless with a rifle in the woods, but I'm not. Things happen, and I like the added security of penetration that comes with a larger round.

[TN-popo]

 

I guess it didn't come out like I intended. I'm more asking that if I hit a deer with a .308 bored center through the lungs with a 150 grain soft nose and it goes 20 yards then piles up, how are you hitting one in the lungs with .223 and dropping it like a stone? Is it bullet speed? Design? That's kind of what I was asking. Neck shots on deer or pigs with almost any caliber will drop them kicking. That's all I was asking. I didn't mean to offend you.
 
DS

Thanks, glad to hear it was just "internet misinterpretation"...happens to me as well.

I'm not advocating .223 as the ultimate deer killer, just saying that it can be used effectively with the right placement / load selection / mature hunting.
Also, for perspective, we should remember that many deer are taken with handguns across the country.
After his motorcycle accident, my dad hunted deer with handguns exclusively and probably ended up taking more deer with those than anything else.

Even as a child, I was very selective with the shots I would take.
Hunter? Yes. Animal lover? Also, yes. I'd rather go home with nothing than to not recover a wounded and hurting deer.
It would irritate me to see/hear hunters taking unrealistic and silly shots, find a blood trail, and just blow off not being able to find the animal. Edited August 8, 2013 by TN-popo

[DaveS]

 

Thanks, glad to hear it was just "internet misinterpretation"...happens to me as well.

I'm not advocating .223 as the ultimate deer killer, just saying that it can be used effectively with the right placement / load selection / mature hunting.
Also, for perspective, we should remember that many deer are taken with handguns across the country.
After his motorcycle accident, my dad hunted deer with handguns exclusively and probably ended up taking more deer with those than anything else.

Even as a child, I was very selective with the shots I would take.
Hunter? Yes. Animal lover? Also, yes. I'd rather go home with nothing than to not recover a wounded and hurting deer.
It would irritate me to see/hear hunters taking unrealistic and silly shots, find a blood trail, and just blow off not being able to find the animal.

Well put! And you are very right!

 

Dave

[whitewolf001]

This isn't call of duty White Wolf haha

 

[Dennis1209]

I guess I'm old fashioned. I have a new 556/223 but if I take to the woods this fall, it's a one ounce 12 ga. rifled slug. Around here a person could take a shot at deer out in the fields at 800+ yards if they wanted to but, that no fun and a great risk of just wounding it.

 

I like to get in bed with them in the woods on the ground and take a 60-100 lb. eater at less than 50 yards. I've made good shots on deer with a 12 ga. slug and still had them run 100 yards before piling up.

 

Listen closely and you'll hear those back straps sizzling on my Webber grill this fall :up: