ATF Approved This LOL

[Lumber_Jack]

Thanks Lumber_Jack, interesting. Since you do so much work out in the boonies, a "big pistol" probably makes good sense for you to tote around.

 

Yeah, its a .300 ACC Blackout as well :D

 

 

With or without this "brace" you may get static from a LEO with any of the "rifle-based" pistols (AR, Draco, etc) even if you're legally in the clear. See Kwik at Radnor. Add in this legal brace-that's-really-just-a-non-adjustable-stock and even a LEO knowledgable of those laws will take a second look at you.

 

exactly why I treat it as a rifle, with no round chambered.  I have the Magpul BAD lever that allows a seemless chambering of a round.  keep the dust cover closed and its good to go. 

[Oh Shoot]

Guy who designed it and people that have them say it's much too floppy to be at all effective as a shoulder stock. You'd still be just using the extension tube as the real point of contact. And of course, it doesn't extend the tube either.

 

And if you beef it up, it's something else than the approved product, and then you've made a stock.

 

A rubber cane or walker tip is an ATF approved addition for pistol, just use that if you want something else against your shoulder.

 

It was actually created by a semi-handicapped vet who made if for one armed folks, but of course once sold to Sig, they market it as a must have tacticool device.

 

- OS

Edited July 16, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[Hershmeister]

This was my question the first time I saw this device, prior to this thread. looks to me like an elaborate way to get a "shoulder-able" device on a pistol with a psuedo permision from ATF.


Question is, if your seen using the device as a shoulder type stock are you no longer safe under the ATF approval?


Hell, I'd probably give it a try if it werent so expensive

My thoughts exactly


If it was in the $50-$75 range I would try it

I received the email from sig and asked this very question and for a copy of the atf letter. They wouldn't supply it

I'll pass

[Oh Shoot]

I received the email from sig and asked this very question and for a copy of the atf letter. They wouldn't supply it

I'll pass

 

Interestingly, apparently the only actual ATF letter regarding this thing is to Alex Bosco, for his prototype version, before he sold rights to Sig to manufacture it.

 

It's in the second page of this original thread on ArfCom:

 

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=592191

 

Or direct links to the images of the letter:

 

http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag159/alessandrorbosco/ATFApprovalLetter1-1.jpg

 

http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag159/alessandrorbosco/ATFApprovalLetter2.jpg

 

The device apparently looked like this at the time:

 

 

 

Some other early writeups:

 

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/11/robert-farago/sb15-ar-15-pistol-forearm-stabilizing-brace/

 

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2012/11/29/making-an-ar-15-pistol-suck-less-and-helping-disabled-veterans-in-the-process/

 

- OS

[turkeydad]

Man if ole Merle from Walking Dead had of survived . . .this would have been the cats meow for him. . .

[BigK]

I'm not an AR pistol fan to begin with, but I try to keep an open mind. I asked myself, "self, if you didn't think AR pistols were awkward and ugly enough as it is, would you give this a try?"

 

My answer was "hell no!", which I thought was rather rude. I need to work on my people skills.

[Hershmeister]

Thanks for the arfcom link - I didn't realize it was made from foam, So my concern is abated.

My 2 cents now:

For the price point you might as well pay for the tax stamp.

For a disabled individual this is a great invention.

[Oh Shoot]

Thanks for the arfcom link - I didn't realize it was made from foam, So my concern is abated.

 

It's not now. Sig calls it "elasto-polymer".

 

- OS

[Lumber_Jack]

Thanks for the arfcom link - I didn't realize it was made from foam, So my concern is abated.

It's not now. Sig calls it "elasto-polymer".

- OS

A.K.A. - hard rubber

[whitewolf001]

As I said, that's TOTALLY how I'd use it.

 

A.K.A. - hard rubber

 

[Dustbuster]

"It was actually created by a semi-handicapped vet who made if for one armed folks, but of course once sold to Sig, they market it as a must have tacticool device."

 

exactly

[Paisan]

I just finished my first AR pistol project. It's a BCM 11.5 lightweight upper on a Noveske lower with the Sig SB15. The difference between this setup and my friend's with cane tips and / or foam sleeves is night and day. The SB 15 is NOT floppy. It's more like the sidewall of a tire, and nothing like foam or soft rubber. I've got considerable time behind a Colt Commando with an entry stock and that is very much what this "pistol" feels like - only much lighter.

 

It's a pistol per the ATF, so it can be transported like any other pistol.

 

Sig sent a 1/2 size copy of the ATF letter in the box. I keep it and a copy of the lower invoice showing it to have been bought as a stripped lower. The 4473 backs that up, if necessary.

 

One internet wit opined that AR pistols are "kind of like a wrench doing the work of a hammer" while awkwardly driving a nail with a wrench. At the end of his video, we shoulders the weapon (NOT a legal problem) and tests it out. Turning to the camera, he holds up the weapon, and through a big grin says "This wrench is one fine hammer!" I heartily agree.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Paisan

[Guest 6.8 AR]

This was my question the first time I saw this device, prior to this thread.  looks to me like an elaborate way to get a "shoulder-able" device on a pistol with a psuedo permision from ATF. 

 

Question is, if your seen using the device as a shoulder type stock are you no longer safe under the ATF approval?

 

Hell, I'd probably give it a try if it werent so expensive

Why would it matter how you use it? What matters is how it was sold as, at least to the minute mart agency that regulates it. Once it is

in your hands, another matter.

[hipower]

I agree with 6.8 on this. How you hold it is not the issue. It is sold as a legal weapon as is. Changing the way you hold the "wrist brace" is not, that I know of, banned.

 

Although I am surprised that the BATFE folks haven't stipulated that it must be attached to your wrist when using it.

[Hershmeister]

You guys are flirting with disaster imho if you use the arm stabilizer as a stock. For the same money get an sbr stamp and be safe

[Oh Shoot]

I agree with 6.8 on this. How you hold it is not the issue. It is sold as a legal weapon as is. Changing the way you hold the "wrist brace" is not, that I know of, banned.

 

Although I am surprised that the BATFE folks haven't stipulated that it must be attached to your wrist when using it.

 

You guys are flirting with disaster imho if you use the arm stabilizer as a stock. For the same money get an sbr stamp and be safe

 

BATF is well aware how the brace is being used. There are thousands of posts on beau coup sites and oddles of pix showing people shouldering them.

 

However, there is nothing in the USC, CFR, or court decision, or ATF rulings about how a firearm must be handled or fired. There are only laws and rulings based on the laws regarding how firearms can be configured.

 

Holding a legally configured handgun against your shoulder is no more illegal than shooting a legally configured long gun from the hip (or the feller who shoots his 1911 with his feet).  Nobody in US history has ever been prosecuted for how they hold their legal firearm to fire it. There is no legal definition or ruling whatsoever wherein a pistol becomes a rifle or a rifle a pistol due to how it's held during firing.

 

On the other hand, BATF could re-rule any time that the SB15 constitutes a stock, too, then game over for it. They've done it with other firearm accessories in the past that they initially approved.

 

And btw, the letter allowing it is not even to SIG, but to the developer, Alex Bosco, for his prototype, who used what appears to be totally different material for the device (though he has stated on another forum that it's "the same".)

 

edit: I see I already covered this last part in post 29, didn't grok this was same older thread till after I replied.

 

- OS

Edited December 14, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[swim615]

Glad to see this thread come back up. Until now I never wanted a AR pistol. Now its at the top of my list. I really want to give this brace a try.

[Oh Shoot]

Glad to see this thread come back up. Until now I never wanted a AR pistol. Now its at the top of my list. I really want to give this brace a try.

 

Doesn't grab me. Before you buy one, put a regular buffer tube against your shoulder. That's same length of pull you get with the brace. The brace may be more gentle against shoulder due to surface area, but it's still a super scrunched up close to your work hold.

 

I find buffer tube laid alongside cheek is very comfy, no shoulder, elbow, neck, or wrist cramps, and just about equally stable.

 

- OS

Edited December 14, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[seez52]

Atf has been known to reinterpret previous rullings. This might be a case, sometimes things are grandfathered sometimes not. The wallet holster for the old High Standard 22 mag derringers comes to mind.

[Lumber_Jack]

[quote name="6.8 AR" post="1078630" timestamp="1386984994"]Why would it matter how you use it? What matters is how it was sold as, at least to the minute mart agency that regulates it. Once it is in your hands, another matter.[/quote] I'm worried about the ATF not following their own rules. Letters of opinion can change daily. I would rather pay the tax stamp

[Oh Shoot]

Atf has been known to reinterpret previous rullings. This might be a case, sometimes things are grandfathered sometimes not. The wallet holster for the old High Standard 22 mag derringers comes to mind.

 

Atkins Accelerator and  the "fake suppressor" they decided wasn't (I forget which firearm) are two others.

 

- OS

[swim615]

Doesn't grab me. Before you buy one, put a regular buffer tube against your shoulder. That's same length of pull you get with the brace. The brace may be more gentle against shoulder due to surface area, but it's still a super scrunched up close to your work hold.

 

I find buffer tube laid alongside cheek is very comfy, no shoulder, elbow, neck, or wrist cramps, and just about equally stable.

 

- OS

Yes this looks like a great reason for a field trip to my LGS to get a hands on feel of it. :pleased:

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I'm worried about the ATF not following their own rules. Letters of opinion can change daily. I would rather pay the tax stamp

I understand your concern, completely, but their rulings, or their letters responding to inquiries, don't address the uses or handling of the product.
If they did, their response would become so vague it would be almost impossible to respond.
Mac is on top of this stuff quite well. I rely on his heavy lifting a bit.

If you think about it too long, your mind might drift off to the subject of shooting a handgun "gangsta"
style. Kinda the same thing, isn't it? :D

About the stamp. I can't wait to hear how long those waits turn into on the current stamps. Not
that I plan on making any purchases, but more to what sane people will put up with from their favorite federal agency. I'll gladly keep making pistols rather than wait a year for a stamp for a shorter barrel and a stock. Too high a price for permission from buffoons who shouldn't be allowed to have a job that violates the 2nd amendment.
NFA: The first gun registry, and the model for the final registry. Edited December 14, 2013 by 6.8 AR

[Dustbuster]

I like the concept of the brace but its a no to for me as I can use a single or 2 point sling and hit what I want to. The other reason is its cumbersome for my taste and takes time to mount and make ready, a sling gives me more options. I was surprised it got approved but it helps hold a pistol w one hand securely as the gun gods want so....enjoy!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 of course it ate my spelling.

[seez52]

This might make me rethink the usefulness of an AR pistol which so far I've never had a hankering for.