Zimmerman Trial: Verdict Reached!

[TMF]

Is that not the reason any person seeks to obtain a permit, to be able to protect themselves in case of an altercation?
 

Wonder how long Zimmerman has had his permit?  Has he ever chased anybody else down before?  Seems that if he had a pattern of such activity, it would have come out at the trial.

No, folks have their permit for defense, not so they can go on the offense in order to elicit a defensive situation. Point is, nothing about my behavior has changed since I began carrying other than being less confrontational. I don't believe that Zimmerman would have pursued Martin if he hadn't had a carry weapon, especially if he was a weak and cowardly as his defense team presented him as in court. If he was that physically weak and afraid, he wouldn't have gone anywhere near "a suspicious man" who was "acting like he was on drugs." I'm not a pussy, but I wouldn't follow someone like that unless I had a weapon, which would preclude me from following them because I would be forced to use it in a situation that I intentionally placed myself.

[Guest nra37922]

All this could have been prevented if TM didn't have that chip on the shoulder, I'm being disrepected, tough hood BS that is all so common now-a-days.

[Spiffy]

Good decision.  Personally, I don't think it should have ever made it to trial.

 

The question now is what are you guys going to find to debate and create 1000 post threads?  ;)

 

USPSA is getting a rewire to their rule book..... might have legs LOL

[Spiffy]

Only took him 1 bullet last time (disclaimer: I own and frequently carry the Kel-Tec PF9).

And wow ... O'Mara telling it like it is. "If Z was black this wouldn't have been brought to court." (paraphrased).

 

If GZ didn't look "white" it wouldn't have been either. How often to see cases about Black on Hispanic crime unless a DA is running for re-election and pushing some anti-gang angle.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Im taking this from a post I made somewhere else....

[snip]

 

The man was a neighborhood watch leader. He did exactly what he was supposed to do. He also felt he could be a better witness if he reported where the individual went. He followed him and lost sight of him. After he was told that he did not have to follow him 90 seconds goes by while he has still not regained sight of TM and was returning to his vehicle to await the police. Sometime after he hung up with the police TM approached and attacked him.

 

Daniel, there is room for wildly varying opinion, but if we want evidence, here is some evidence-- As far as I can tell, Sanford Neighborhood Watch manual says "Do not take any risks to report a crime". From the results of that night, seems rather DOH obvious that Z took risks.

 

In addition, lawofficer.com posted a press release from the Natl Sheriffs Assoc Neighborhood Watch program, where the organization asserts that Z DID NOT do what he was supposed to do, according to Neighborhood Watch policies.

 

I am very ignorant, and perhaps after that initial release, Neighborhood Watch backpedaled and released a correcting announcement explaining that Z did fabulous that night and Z is actually the ideal Neighborhood Watch feller. If you can find such a document, I'll happily eat crow on this issue. :)

 

====

 

A link to the Sanford Neighborhood Watch Manual--  http://www.scribd.com/doc/87073326/NWProgramHandbook

Page15, Bullet Item 10

"Remember always that your responsibility is to report crime. Do not take any risks to report a crime or try to make an arrest. The responsibility for apprehending criminals belongs to the police department."

 

 

====

 

http://www.lawofficer.com/article/news/national-sheriff-s-association-0

National Sheriff’s Association | Wednesday, March 21, 2012

 

Alexandria, VA – For nearly four decades, the Neighborhood Watch Program (housed within the National Sheriffs’ Association (NSA)) has worked to unite law enforcement agencies, private organizations, and individual citizens in a nation-wide effort to reduce crime and improve local communities.

 

The purpose of the Neighborhood Watch Program is to enable citizens to act as the “eyes and ears” within their community and alert law enforcement immediately when they notice suspicious activity. However, the Neighborhood Watch Program does not in any way, shape, or form advocate citizens to take the law in their own hands. The success of the program has established Neighborhood Watch as the nation’s premier crime prevention and community mobilization program. Visible signs of the program are seen throughout America on street signs, window decals, community block parties and service projects.

 

"The alleged action of a “self-appointed neighborhood watchman” last month in Sanford, FL significantly contradicts the principles of the Neighborhood Watch Program,” stated NSA Executive Director Aaron D. Kennard, Sheriff (ret.). “NSA has no information indicating the community where the incident occurred has ever even registered with the NSA Neighborhood Watch program.”

 

“The Neighborhood Watch Program fosters collaboration and cooperation with the community and local law enforcement by encouraging citizens to be aware of what is going on in their communities and contact law enforcement if they suspect something – NOT take the law in their own hands,” continued Executive Director Kennard. “The alleged participant ignored everything the Neighborhood Watch Program stands for and it resulted in a young man losing his life. Our thoughts and prayers are with the family of Trayvon Martin during this terrible time.”

 

National Sheriffs’ Association (NSA) is one of the largest associations of law enforcement professionals in the United States, representing more than 3,000 elected sheriffs across the nation, and a total membership of more than 20,000. NSA is a non-profit organization dedicated to raising the level of professionalism among sheriffs, their deputies, and others in the field of criminal justice and public safety. Throughout its seventy-two year history, NSA has served as an information clearinghouse for sheriffs, deputies, chiefs of police, other law enforcement professionals, state governments and the federal government. For more information on the NSA and the Neighborhood Watch Program, please visit www.sheriffs.org.

 

[RobertNashville]

Daniel, there is room for wildly varying opinion, but if we want evidence, here is some evidence-- As far as I can tell, Sanford Neighborhood Watch manual says "Do not take any risks to report a crime". From the results of that night, seems rather DOH obvious that Z took risks.

 

In addition, lawofficer.com posted a press release from the Natl Sheriffs Assoc Neighborhood Watch program, where the organization asserts that Z DID NOT do what he was supposed to do, according to Neighborhood Watch policies.

 

I am very ignorant, and perhaps after that initial release, Neighborhood Watch backpedaled and released a correcting announcement explaining that Z did fabulous that night and Z is actually the ideal Neighborhood Watch feller. If you can find such a document, I'll happily eat crow on this issue. :)

Did he take a risk? Yes.

 

I've taken a risk reporting a suspicious person not long ago when I took a pic of pickup truck (lic plate) of a man who was almost certainly browsing homes for potential burglary....he was going door to door claiming to be a property inspector (he obviously wasn't) and seemed very intersted in what he could see from the front door when the person who was home answered it. If he had been armed and of a mind to he might well have come after me when he saw me take the pic (instead he hightailed it out of the neighborhood).

 

But, I guess I was okay because I stayed in my truck. ;)

 

There is no evidence that Zimmerman was trying to do anything other than trying to see where Martin went so he could be a good witness once the police showed up...I suppose that's a "risk" but seems like a minor one except in hindsight (which of course, Zimmerman didn't have the benefit of...we do!).

Edited July 15, 2013 by RobertNashville

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Lots of stupid happened. So what? Did Martin do something stupid? Yes. How about Zimmerman? Yes. That's usually

when something grave can happen, without having preconceived the event. It doesn't mean anything in this case.

 

It was ruled self defense, wasn't it? The rest is about emotion surrounding Trayvon Martin. Maybe some compassion

is in order about how to deal with kids who are raised in slums, on welfare with crap for parents, if any, and gangs

who raise them. Our society has created this problem by government handouts and laws that utilize racial identity

as some sort of substitute for self esteem, but falsely.

 

Lot of problems to fix, but it still changes nothing until we put responsible people back in government and get rid of

stupid laws that hinder justice, or, rather replace it with false expectations. A certain ideology has caused this. We're

not ready to fix any of this, yet.

 

Oh, yeh. I forgot. You folks who think the Ten Commandments should have been taken out of society, and the Bible

put in obscurity, how's that working out for you?

 

There's a lot of heavy lifting to do. Throw out the foundations of a civilization and see how well it works out.

[daddyo]

In all fairness, I would say that, given the extreme stress experienced during a real SD situation, there aren't very many of us who would do everything just right.

 

Hopefully though, the things we did right would be enough so that if it came to a trial, the evidence would be in our favor and the jury would find us innocent of any wrongdoing.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Did he take a risk? Yes.

 

I've taken a risk reporting a suspicious person not long ago when I took a pic of pickup truck (lic plate) of a man who was almost certainly browsing homes for potential burglary....he was going door to door claiming to be a property inspector (he obviously wasn't) and seemed very intersted in what he could see from the front door when the person who was home answered it. If he had been armed and of a mind to he might well have come after me when he saw me take the pic (instead he hightailed it out of the neighborhood).

 

But, I guess I was okay because I stayed in my truck. ;)

 

There is no evidence that Zimmerman was trying to do anything other than trying to see where Martin went so he could be a good witness once the police showed up...I suppose that's a "risk" but seems like a minor one except in hindsight (which of course, Zimmerman didn't have the benefit of...we do!).

 

Yep, it is a risk rolling out of bed in the morning, but on the other hand there is risk in staying in bed as well. Folks have been hit by meteors or more prosaic falling trees by making the mistake of laying in bed. :)

 

It is judgement call influenced by personal experience and personality. For instance EastTnPatriot doesn't seem to think Z was being especially risky, but that feller is a former cop and probably knows how to handle himself in that situation, and his experience colors his evaluation of the risk. Similarly, some folks here with military experience think Z wasn't acting very risky, and others with military experience claim they wouldn't touch that situation with a 10 foot pole.

 

Now me, I'm a cowardly klutz. Have worked in psychiatric hospitals, juvenile delinquent halfway houses, social worker out in dangerous rural redneck settings and daily visits to bad-news violent urban housing projects where I was definitely the wrong color to be there. And played music in bars for many years, some of em pretty tough. Maybe I know NOTHING of risk, but either thru luck or skill managed to live this long without getting f-ed up too bad by crazy people. i sure as hell wouldn't have got out of the truck. There are A LOT of crazy people out there but you can generally get by if you watch both yerself and others, and act both prudently and appropriately.

 

No way I'd have got out of the truck, but thats just me. :) Apparently Neighborhood Watch says "don't get out of the truck".

[Guest Emtdaddy1980]

^^^^^ +1

Call it conflicting cases of felony stupid. One perpetrator is dead and the other has become a pariah. Time for the rest of us to get on with our lives.

[Guest Emtdaddy1980]

Lots of stupid happened. So what? Did Martin do something stupid? Yes. How about Zimmerman? Yes. That's usually
when something grave can happen,

This is the comment I was +1 about. Y'all snuck the other ones in while I was typing.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Some people tend to think if you don't care about your community enough to take care of it, it won't exist for long. This

community was once a good neighborhood that is in decline. Maybe the residents want something more than others

think they should have. I don't want to get broken into and rely on cops and insurance to keep what is mine. Remove

the breeding ground for mosquitoes and they die off, along with the malaria they bring.

 

Lawofficer.org and the National Association of Sheriffs can say what they want in their publications, but the one out

there doing something about it is bound to make mistakes, and I doubt he should be held to what one of those

publications say, especially since they carry no legal weight and there is no requirement to be a member of any

organization, to begin with. It's also like comparing them to a police officer. You can't. They don't perform until after

the fact, most of the time, anyway. No comparison.

 

Lester, I liked your version of NW better than the official one. Redneck Patrol, or whatever it was. :D

[daddyo]

Redneck Patrol is what we have where I live, by golly!

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Some people tend to think if you don't care about your community enough to take care of it, it won't exist for long. This

community was once a good neighborhood that is in decline. Maybe the residents want something more than others

think they should have. I don't want to get broken into and rely on cops and insurance to keep what is mine. Remove

the breeding ground for mosquitoes and they die off, along with the malaria they bring.

 

Lawofficer.org and the National Association of Sheriffs can say what they want in their publications, but the one out

there doing something about it is bound to make mistakes, and I doubt he should be held to what one of those

publications say, especially since they carry no legal weight and there is no requirement to be a member of any

organization, to begin with. It's also like comparing them to a police officer. You can't. They don't perform until after

the fact, most of the time, anyway. No comparison.

 

Lester, I liked your version of NW better than the official one. Redneck Patrol, or whatever it was. :D

 

Yep, they hold no more legal authority than NRA firearm handling recommendations, or any other non-governmental organization. There are many "expert orgs" that don't carry legal weight even if a fella might at least read the recommendations and decide on the wisdom of such. ANSI for instance. Or aviation organizations. Maybe a pilot would consider aviation org recommendations even if they are not law. :)

 

Post the signs-- This community am protected by Bubba's Self-Service Security! Maybe we could trademark it and go into competition with Neighborhood Watch!

[K191145]

Redneck Patrol is what we have where I live, by golly!

 

Here's what we have in my hood. :)

 

[URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/JMH42/media/YDHoodwatch_zps8510be48.jpg.html][/URL]

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Yep, they hold no more legal authority than NRA firearm handling recommendations, or any other non-governmental organization. There are many "expert orgs" that don't carry legal weight even if a fella might at least read the recommendations and decide on the wisdom of such. ANSI for instance. Or aviation organizations. Maybe a pilot would consider aviation org recommendations even if they are not law. :)

 

Post the signs-- This community am protected by Bubba's Self-Service Security! Maybe we could trademark it and go into competition with Neighborhood Watch!

Are you going to open franchises? :D You should trademark that name.

[Guest TankerHC]

looks like Zimmerman might have a job anyway......in Federal Prison. Yesterday the Justice Department announced (And publicly today) that the Federal Investigation will resume. Zimmerman has 3 separate cases now, Two against and one (NBC Lawsuit) for him. . They are going to (try to) get him, no matter what.

 

Note also that Trayvon Martin is now a sideshow, nearly every article I read this morning contains paragraphs about gun control.

 

As they say in this article, he may go three for three, doubtful, JD isnt going to bring something like this they arent going to win.

 

In a statement yesterday, the department indicated the case was being resumed. Fox News reported on Justice's announcement.

"The Department of Justice's Criminal Section of the Civil Rights Division, the United States Attorney's Office for the Middle District of Florida, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation continue to evaluate the evidence generated during the federal investigation, as well as the evidence and testimony from the state trial," the Justice Department said in a statement Sunday. "Experienced federal prosecutors will [now] determine whether the evidence reveals a prosecutable violation of any of the limited federal criminal civil rights statutes within our jurisdiction, and whether federal prosecution is appropriate in accordance with the Department's policy governing successive federal prosecution following a state tri

 

 

The case: In interviews on Sunday, the attorney for the Martin family (his father Tracy Martin and mother Sybrina Fulton) indicated that it was considering filing civil charges against Zimmerman, as MSNBC reports.

Such a case would echo another prominent racially tinged trial: the acquittal of O.J. Simpson in 1995. In the aftermath of that case, the families of those Simpson was accused of killing filed a civil suit, charging that Simpson caused his ex-wife Nicole Brown's wrongful death. CNN explains how that could be a roadmap for the Martin family.

Wrongful death is easier to prove than murder or manslaughter. A defendant can be held liable, even if he or she didn't intend to cause the victim's death, according to Florida law. Simple negligence is enough, if it results in death.

Did Zimmerman act negligently, when he exited his vehicle to pursue Martin on foot while carrying a gun—although a 911 operator told him not to?

 

I hope he walks on all three or the JD or a judge says there is no way this can come to court. On the third, I hope he hands NBC their azz.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/next-three-trials-george-zimmerman-155539718.html

Edited July 15, 2013 by TankerHC

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I predict he will have plenty of pro bono representation if the Justice Dept pursues this. There are plenty of folks

pissed off about this racial crap, nowadays, regardless of how you feel about the verdict. It is getting real old and

needs a muzzle put on it.

[Spiffy]

What I took away from all this is don't risk your life/financials for a bunch of people who wouldn't piss in your ear if your head was on fire. You never saw a show of support from the people GZ was trying to help/protect. I predict there will be A LOT less help from neighbors from here on out.  Back here in the hollower we try to keep an eye on things but I'd only risk anything for family.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

That's the whole problem with society. No one gives a damn about protecting it. You can't protect yourself if you don't

protect society by some means. Laws that put your life and fortune at risk put a damper on things. Laws that should

be erased. The only way to erase those laws is to put responsible people in to deal with these matters, or set a good

example in your community. Backing away is the wrong approach to take. Sometimes it seems to be the only thing you

can do, but in the long run, it usually fails. Setting good examples is the best way to educate a society to take care of

itself.

[Caster]

Douche bag Holder is speaking right now. Funny he says "we must not miss this opportunity to come together." Mmmmhmmm.
More like we must not miss this opportunity to assert out authority and prove to you we will continue to subjugate you and to hell with your state rights. Edited July 15, 2013 by Caster

[Guest Lester Weevils]

What I took away from all this is don't risk your life/financials for a bunch of people who wouldn't piss in your ear if your head was on fire. You never saw a show of support from the people GZ was trying to help/protect. I predict there will be A LOT less help from neighbors from here on out.  Back here in the hollower we try to keep an eye on things but I'd only risk anything for family.

 

My HCP course was taught by a couple of law enforcement fellers who seemed nice guys. As best I recall, they taught that it is legally risky enough protecting yourself and family, but extremely legally risky to protect strangers. They said do whatever you are willing to risk if it seems right at the time, but you are potentially opening yourself for years of legal misery if you wade in defending a third party. They also mentioned that unless one is intimately familiar with the people and situation, a fella could easily make mistakes and "defend" the bad guy, and shoot the good guy.

 

That course and advice was something like 14 years ago, so it isn't exactly news that you have to watch out getting involved with other people's troubles. I'm not saying I'd never help a stranger, just that the legal situation ain't new.

 

The other thing to consider, in the case of witnessing some adult stranger being accosted-- That person had ample opportunity to get an HCP and go armed himself/herself. Just like you. So some of the responsibility goes to the third party, if the third party happens to be less than properly prepared to ATTEMPT self-defense. No matter how "well prepared", any confrontation is a crap-shoot with uncertain results.

[TripleDigitRide]

Douche bag Holder is speaking right now. Funny he says "we must not miss this opportunity to come together." Mmmmhmmm.

More like we must not miss this opportunity to assert out authority and prove to you we will continue to subjugate you and to hell with your state rights.

I have a feeling this is going set the race relations back many, many years.

[mav]

I have a feeling this is going set the race relations back many, many years.

 

I believe that this was their intention all along.  It is easier to control/manipulate people when you create groups and pit them against each other.

[daddyo]

I have a feeling this is going set the race relations back many, many years.

 

To say nothing of how the Obama administration has destroyed race relations.