Serious Legal help needed.

[Fivestring63]

I'm supposed to get my HCP anyday now according to the lady I talked to in Nashville.

Now the bad part. My wife filed an Order of Protection against me a few days ago. I was gonna fight it tooth and nails because of totally baseless claims, but she told me the other night that on the next court date this month that she was gonna drop it and I know she will. As of now, no guns, no ammo.

So what's gonna happen to me now? Will I get a call to return my HCP? After the order is dropped, will they still want it back? Will I have to go through a review process?

[BryanP]

For something like this you need to talk to a lawyer.

[Guest canynracer]

I would give Patrick a call, he is on the board here somewhere....

http://www.patrickstegall.com/

[Mike.357]

Serious Legal help needed.

You certainly need more help than an internet forum can offer. If the permit is important to you determine how important and hire an attorney worth that amount.

I would not mess around with something like this, get a lawyer.

[Guest bkelm18]

From what I understand, the case has to be reviewed by a judge before it becomes official and you lose your firearm rights. But you need to talk to a lawyer about it.

[Fivestring63]

From what I understand, the case has to be reviewed by a judge before it becomes official and you lose your firearm rights. But you need to talk to a lawyer about it.

I'm hoping that since it's not "official" yet and she's gonna drop it the next court date, that nothing will happen with it.

After a little research I found that "IF" I do get it revoked, I will have to file a petition against the state and go to court to state my case. Then TDOS decides what to do.

I've got the lawyer thing covered. Just not talked to him about this yet as it's still in the early stages.

[Guest jwp]

Yep. Time to lawyer up.

[Seaslug]

I went through this exact same thing during my divorce last year. My wife and I were on good terms and had already agreed on the parameters of our divorce when I applied for my HCP. Two weeks later, her attorney (who wouldn't have made very much money by filing our agreed divorce) convinced her to try to put the screws to me, and that started with her filing an order of protection against me in the 4th Circuit Court here in Knoxville. Apparently, Judge Swann will issue a temporary OP for anyone at anytime, no questions asked, and you are essentially guilty until proven innocent. All she had to say was, "My husband owns guns, and I'm afraid of what he might do once I serve him with the divorce papers."

While I don't know you or your situation, I have no reason to doubt that whatever claims your wife made were completely baseless. I'm 32 years old, and I neither drink nor smoke. I've never been in a fight in my entire life. And I have most assuredly NEVER harmed nor threatened to harm my wife in any way, shape, or form. I never, in a million years, would've imagined that someone with an axe to grind could go down to the courthouse, make a false claim, pay a few dollars, and completely destroy someone else's life.

While the order was active, I was not supposed to be in possession of any firearms or ammo, I could not get any job that required applicants to pass a background check, and most importantly, I could be restricted from seeing my little girl. This was just terrific, given that recreational shooting is my favorite hobby, I was looking to pursue a career in law enforcement at the time (something that my wife would not allow me to do while we were together), and my little girl is the most important thing in the world to me.

Like you, I wanted to fight the damn thing tooth and nail, and I was confident that I would be exonerated since I hadn't actually done anything wrong. Here's where it gets really good. I was informed by 3 different attorneys that, while there was a chance that Judge Swann would throw the order out once he heard all the facts and saw that there was no evidence to indicate that I was any sort of threat, THERE WAS JUST AS GOOD A CHANCE THAT HE WOULD ISSUE A 1-YEAR EXTENDED ORDER OF PROTECTION THAT WOULD SHOW UP ON A BACKGROUND CHECK FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE. I learned that OP's are not like criminal charges. THERE IS NO BURDEN OF PROOF. The judge can use his own discretion to issue the EPO, whether there is any evidence or not! Holy crap!

Well, as you might imagine, this scared the bejeezus outta me. I had my attorney inquire as to what it would take to make it go away, and I was informed that if I would just relinquish my rights to all of the equity in our home (over $30,000) and take on all of our marital debt, my wife would drop the OP and let me see my little girl as much as I wanted (sounds like she was really scared, huh?). Ultimately, this was the route I decided to take, but I still wonder to this day whether or not Judge Swann would've really destroyed a man's life and his ability to make a living without any evidence against him.

Oh, and btw, Nashville apparently never realized that I was under an OP, because I got my permit in the mail about month after being served, and no one ever asked for it back. Hope that helps...

Edited August 11, 2008 by Seaslug
Anal retentive

[Fivestring63]

Bittersweet moment. I did get my HCP today. About a week after being served the Order of Protection. It only took 47 Days to get the HCP but I'm sure me calling them expedited it some.

Luckily so far, she's changed her mind and am letting me have the boys on weekends. I can call her. We've worked out a lot on the coming divorce. She's promised to drop the order at our next court date. Like Seaslug- we're really a big threat now huh?? You said it right. It's like we're guilty untill proven innocent.

I'm hoping it turns out like Seaslug and I never hear from them wanting it back. Sounds like Seaslugs was a little messy. We actually are getting along really good.

[Metalhead]

Might I also suggest a lawyer - John M. L. Brown:

http://www.johnbrownlawfirm.com/index.jsp

He's first rate.

[Seaslug]

Bittersweet moment. I did get my HCP today. About a week after being served the Order of Protection. It only took 47 Days to get the HCP but I'm sure me calling them expedited it some.

Luckily so far, she's changed her mind and am letting me have the boys on weekends. I can call her. We've worked out a lot on the coming divorce. She's promised to drop the order at our next court date. Like Seaslug- we're really a big threat now huh?? You said it right. It's like we're guilty untill proven innocent.

I'm hoping it turns out like Seaslug and I never hear from them wanting it back. Sounds like Seaslugs was a little messy. We actually are getting along really good.

Be VERY careful about talking to her between now and the court date. If the OP is an ex-parte, you can not have ANY contact with your wife, EVEN IF SHE GIVES YOU PERMISSION OR INITIATES THE CONTACT HERSELF. The judge himself will tell you, the person who filed the OP can only be chastised for violating it. The person who was served can go to jail. I certainly hope that this is not the case in your situation, but the way that the statute is written, it gives the filing party the ability to legally "set up" the served party, which can really come back and bite you in the rear should things turn sour again. At the very least, meticulously document any contact you have with your wife between now and the court date.

On a side note, if the OP is indeed dropped the next time you go to court, follow up with the clerk's office and make sure that it gets recorded. I tried to purchase a police trade-in Glock 22 about 6 weeks after mine was dropped, and I was denied by TICS! I immediately called one of my buddies with KPD, and he informed me that I was still showing up on the NCIC as being under the OP! Mind you, I had been carrying again for a full 6 weeks, and I can't even imagine what would've happened had I been pulled over during that time (I wasn't smart enough to carry a copy of the dismissal with me). It took me 2 days worth of non-stop wrangling with both the TBI and the 4th Circuit Court Clerk's office, but I finally got my clearance to purchase my gun.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that you guys are getting along better. My ex and I have gotten along great since I agreed to give her all the money and absorbed all her debt...lol. I see my little girl 3 days a week, and I've even gotten her to verbally agree to let me have 50/50 custody sometime next year. I really wish that I'd never had to go through all of that crap, but at least I learned a lot about how flawed the system really is. Oh, and I also learned that I could have done a much better job of representing myself than the $250-per-hour lawyer I retained, and I could've gotten to resolution quicker and saved about ten grand in the process. Just my $0.02...

[Guest Revelator]

Although small, there is actually a burden of proof in Tennessee Orders of Protection. They must prove domestic abuse, stalking or sexual assault by a preponderance of the evidence, per TCA 36-3-605. Now that's nowhere near the burden required for a criminal conviction, and as in Seaslug's case it may all come down to what judge you get, but I just wanted to point out that by law there is an actual burden and some judges do hold the petitioner to it. They may be able to just walk in and get the ex parte order like that, but they're going to have to work a little harder to get it extended.

[Guest grimel]

For something like this you need to talk to the best lawyer you can afford.

I fixed your post.

[Guest grimel]

I went through this exact same thing during my divorce last year. My wife and I were on good terms and had already agreed on the parameters of our divorce when I applied for my HCP. Two weeks later, her attorney (who wouldn't have made very much money by filing our agreed divorce) convinced her to try to put the screws to me, and that started with her filing an order of protection against me in the 4th Circuit Court here in Knoxville. Apparently, Judge Swann will issue a temporary OP for anyone at anytime, no questions asked, and you are essentially guilty until proven innocent. All she had to say was, "My husband owns guns, and I'm afraid of what he might do once I serve him with the divorce papers."

While I don't know you or your situation, I have no reason to doubt that whatever claims your wife made were completely baseless. I'm 32 years old, and I neither drink nor smoke. I've never been in a fight in my entire life. And I have most assuredly NEVER harmed nor threatened to harm my wife in any way, shape, or form. I never, in a million years, would've imagined that someone with an axe to grind could go down to the courthouse, make a false claim, pay a few dollars, and completely destroy someone else's life.

While the order was active, I was not supposed to be in possession of any firearms or ammo, I could not get any job that required applicants to pass a background check, and most importantly, I could be restricted from seeing my little girl. This was just terrific, given that recreational shooting is my favorite hobby, I was looking to pursue a career in law enforcement at the time (something that my wife would not allow me to do while we were together), and my little girl is the most important thing in the world to me.

Like you, I wanted to fight the damn thing tooth and nail, and I was confident that I would be exonerated since I hadn't actually done anything wrong. Here's where it gets really good. I was informed by 3 different attorneys that, while there was a chance that Judge Swann would throw the order out once he heard all the facts and saw that there was no evidence to indicate that I was any sort of threat, THERE WAS JUST AS GOOD A CHANCE THAT HE WOULD ISSUE A 1-YEAR EXTENDED ORDER OF PROTECTION THAT WOULD SHOW UP ON A BACKGROUND CHECK FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE. I learned that OP's are not like criminal charges. THERE IS NO BURDEN OF PROOF. The judge can use his own discretion to issue the EPO, whether there is any evidence or not! Holy crap!

Well, as you might imagine, this scared the bejeezus outta me. I had my attorney inquire as to what it would take to make it go away, and I was informed that if I would just relinquish my rights to all of the equity in our home (over $30,000) and take on all of our marital debt, my wife would drop the OP and let me see my little girl as much as I wanted (sounds like she was really scared, huh?). Ultimately, this was the route I decided to take, but I still wonder to this day whether or not Judge Swann would've really destroyed a man's life and his ability to make a living without any evidence against him.

Oh, and btw, Nashville apparently never realized that I was under an OP, because I got my permit in the mail about month after being served, and no one ever asked for it back. Hope that helps...

And this is why EVERYONE who has had a bad OP against them need to take the JUDGE and the EX to court on slander/defamation of character (the ex) and civil rights violations (the judge). That has to be a violation of your 5th, 6th, or 7th rights at a minimum.

[TGO David]

And this is why EVERYONE who has had a bad OP against them need to take the JUDGE and the EX to court on slander/defamation of character (the ex) and civil rights violations (the judge). That has to be a violation of your 5th, 6th, or 7th rights at a minimum.

$$$

If it weren't for that, I'm sure that 'everyone' who has had this happen to them would.

[Fallguy]

I can't tell for sure if she has just filed for an Order of Protection or is she has already been given an Ex Parte Order of Protection.

If she has just filed for a OP and no Ex Parte Order has been issued, there should be no problem, especially if she drops it at the hearing. If an Ex Parte order has been issued that could be a different issue.

There was a past member here who had someone file for and get and Ex Parte Order against him. He went to court and the judge dismissed the order, but he still got a letter from the State to return his HCP after it was already done. Not really sure how it finally turned out...he sort of wore out his welcome here before I heard.

Also Seaslug I hate to hear how it was used just a legal ploy in your case.......unfortunately I think they are used much more for this, than the intended purpose.

[dariks]

It always makes me mad when I hear about stuff like this. It's not right or fair that someones life can be ruined by a simple accusation with no supporting evidence. It seems the whole "Innocent until proven guilty" thing is well and truly dead.

If she doesn't drop the OP can you not file an OP against her?

[Mike.357]

It's like we're guilty untill proven innocent.

I got news for you, it is this way no matter what you may find yourself charged with.

[TripleDigitRide]

Yea, you need a good lawyer.

This sounds like it could easily turn into a huge mess.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

I got news for you, it is this way no matter what you may find yourself charged with.

+1,000,000

Very true.

[Fivestring63]

Be VERY careful about talking to her between now and the court date. If the OP is an ex-parte, you can not have ANY contact with your wife, EVEN IF SHE GIVES YOU PERMISSION OR INITIATES THE CONTACT HERSELF. The judge himself will tell you, the person who filed the OP can only be chastised for violating it. The person who was served can go to jail.

On a side note, if the OP is indeed dropped the next time you go to court, follow up with the clerk's office and make sure that it gets recorded.

We already had one court date. They messed up and set it too early after I was served and I had it rescheduled to get time to get a lawyer. But during that date she had the judge change it where I get the boys on the weekends or anytime we agree on. And we can contact each other over this. It is an exparte OP.

Like I said, we really are getting along great and I know she'll work with me to get this OP out of the way. I'm worried about what's gonna happen with it being on my record for future jobs or loans or anything else like that, and my HCP.

[Seaslug]

Also Seaslug I hate to hear how it was used just a legal ploy in your case.......unfortunately I think they are used much more for this, than the intended purpose.

I did a TON of research while all this was going on, because I've never been in any sort of trouble before, and I wanted to know exactly what I was up against. By querying a number of LEO's, attorneys, and court employees, I learned that this practice is VERY common in Knoxville's 4th Circuit. Apparently, my wife's attorney's first husband blew his brains out right in front of her, so she has a personal axe to grind and has used this tactic against a number of gun-owning husbands in the past. She intentionally chooses to file all of these cases in the 4th Circuit Court because of Judge Swann's infamous willingness to both issue and extend OP's with little or no evidence provided by the petitioner, thus putting a great deal of pressure on the accused to either settle or be screwed for life. A number of other attorneys around town have also used this strategy, and Judge Swann has gained favor with the various women's rights groups who, in turn, help him stay on the bench. All this would've sounded like tinfoil-hat kinda stuff if I hadn't actually experienced it first hand. Quid pro quo politics at its finest...

[GLOCKMEISTER]

I'd give John Brown or John Harris a call... ASAP!

[GLOCKMEISTER]

BTW... DONT TAKE FOR GRANTED YOU WILL ALWAYS "GET ALONG GREAT".... GET THE MEANEST SOB LAWYER YOU CAN FIND, THEN YOU CAN PLAY NICE IF YOU WANT TOO.

[dralarms]

Ok, I got one for you.

Has you actually been served? If not then screw em, carry until they serve you. If you have been served then get a (and I can't beleive I'm saying these 2 words together) good lawyer, you might just need it.

If I rembmer the other situation, he was served before he was no longer "allowed" to carry.