Government gun registry.

[K191145]

http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2013/07/senators-demand-answers-about-illegal-gun-registry-from-nsa-2700984.html

 

Everybody knows that all background check information when someone makes a firearm purchase is "SUPPOSED" to be deleted 24 hours after the check, it's the law.

Does anybody really believe that? How easy would it be to transfer that info on some hidden database? I know the law says data is supposed to be deleted in 24 hours but we all know the government doesn't give a rats glutious maximus about following the law. I'll put my tin foil hat on and say all that background check info from years back is still out there and retrievable by the government.

Does anyone know of a dealer who has had the ATF come in and demand copies or the actual  4473 form? I would think it would be alot easier to transfer background check data.

Edited July 4, 2013 by K191145

[Guest Emtdaddy1980]

I've always assumed the government knew who the gun owners were whenever the 4473 went through. Either way we're all registered as gun owners through PRISM by being members of this forum.

[Smith]

Reno was actually keeping the info and Ashcroft filed a lawsuit to get the records destroyed per current law back in the day, so it is entirely plausible. I don't have a problem with 4473's. If the government actually comes in and take the time to go through each and everyone of those from every dealer, it would take them many years just to process them. You're talking about 3 million a year just in TN spread across no telling how many dealers.

 

BTW - NICS/TICS by law have to be destroyed within 48 hrs.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Smith

[Guest zort]

what laws, this admin doesnt need any stinkin laws.

[RED333]

I am on SO MANY lists if aint funny!!!

Taxes, home owner, firearm owner, car owner, health care, we are all on a list some where.

[Reservoir Dog]

BTW - 4473's by law have to be destroyed within 48 hrs.

 

Huh?  I assume you mean the NICS/TICS check info.  4473s have to be kept for 20 years. 

[Smith]

Huh?  I assume you mean the NICS/TICS check info.  4473s have to be kept for 20 years. 

I did mean NICS/TICS. However, "Approved" 4473's must be kept indefinitely. "Denied" can be destroyed after 20 years.

[Reservoir Dog]

Does anyone know of a dealer who has had the ATF come in and demand copies or the actual  4473 form?

 

Yes.  Usually, they only want the actual paper form if they need it for evidence.  The vast majority of the time, the dealer will get a firearms trace request (either written or phone call).  The dealer will get the needed info off the form and provide that info to the ATF.

[eRay]

Reno was actually keeping the info and Ashcroft filed a lawsuit to get the records destroyed per current law back in the day, so it is entirely plausible. I don't have a problem with 4473's. If the government actually comes in and take the time to go through each and everyone of those from every dealer, it would take them many years just to process them. You're talking about 3 million a year just in TN spread across no telling how many dealers.

 

BTW - 4473's by law have to be destroyed within 48 hrs.

 

Actually 4473's are never destroyed. A dealer must keep them until he closes his business. When he closes his business he must send them to the " ATF OUT of Business Division" where they scan one million documents per day and file them on microflitch for future traces.It is illegal to store them on a computer for a registry but not to scan them and file them for future traces.

[Smith]

Actually 4473's are never destroyed. A dealer must keep them until he closes his business. When he closes his business he must send them to the " ATF OUT of Business Division" where they scan one million documents per day and file them on microflitch for future traces.It is illegal to store them on a computer for a registry but not to scan them and file them for future traces.

We were talking about NICS/TICS. That info is destroyed by law within 48 hrs. What i stated above was in regards to that info. If they want the info on a 4473 they have to request it in light of an investigation or they are turned over as in the situation you posted above.

[Reservoir Dog]

 However, "Approved" 4473's must be kept indefinitely. "Denied" can be destroyed after 20 years.

 

Where did you get that info?  According to the ATF, denials are kept for 5 years, and approvals for 20 years.

 

 

Q: Do FFLs have to keep a copy of ATF Form 4473 if the transaction is denied or for some other reason is not completed?  

FFLs must keep a copy of each ATF Form 4473 for which a NICS check has been initiated, regardless of whether the transfer of the firearm was made. If the transfer is not made, the FFL must keep the Form 4473 for 5 years after the date of the NICS inquiry. If the transfer is made, the FFL must keep the Form 4473 for 20 years after the date of the sale or disposition. Forms 4473 with respect to a transfer that did not take place must be separately maintained.

[27 CFR 478.129

 

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/brady-law.html#4473-nics-denied

Edited July 4, 2013 by Reservoir Dog

[Smith]

Where did you get that info?  According to the ATF, denials are kept for 5 years, and approvals for 20 years.

 

 

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/brady-law.html#4473-nics-denied

From the ATF agents we talk to regularly.

[runco]

Where did you get that info?  According to the ATF, denials are kept for 5 years, and approvals for 20 years.

 

 

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/brady-law.html#4473-nics-denied

As a former FFL, I agree 100%.  20 years for approved 4473!  In fact I should have some already destroyed for myself.  I started buying firearms at age 20, and that has been 25 years ago.

[DaveTN]

I have no doubt that records are kept. Even on private sales gun can be traced through owners.

[Reservoir Dog]

From the ATF agents we talk to regularly.

 

ATF agents routinely give incorrect info.  What they "say" means nothing.  Go by what the law says.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Reservoir Dog

[Smith]

ATF agents routinely give incorrect info.  What they "say" means nothing.  Go by what the law says.

Haha, easy to say. ;)

[Reservoir Dog]

Haha, easy to say. ;)

 

Well, it is easy to "do" as well.  I have educated ATF personnel on the law before. They can't get you in trouble for not following some regulation that they made up in their head.  I have no fear of the ATF, like some in the gun business (and I am not talking of you).  But I have seen others who are petrified of the ATF, and will do anything they ask, even if there is no requirement for it.  I have always found them to be courteous and helpful when I need something. 

[10-Ring]

There was a thread here not too long ago about ATF agents visiting FFLs and downloading the 4473's onto a thumb drive and taking the files with them to look at later instead of there at the FFL like they should.  Seems that there is a lot of stories floating around of late about ATF agents (AKA the government) doing what ever they want with complete disregard to the law.  Someone needs to be held accountable.

[Guest nra37922]

Just go across the border and buy a 'Fast and Furious' firearm.  No paperwork just cash...

[K191145]

Reno was actually keeping the info and Ashcroft filed a lawsuit to get the records destroyed per current law back in the day, so it is entirely plausible. I don't have a problem with 4473's. If the government actually comes in and take the time to go through each and everyone of those from every dealer, it would take them many years just to process them. You're talking about 3 million a year just in TN spread across no telling how many dealers.

 

BTW - NICS/TICS by law have to be destroyed within 48 hrs.

 

I know there are millions of background checks every year but I wouldn't doubt that some government official's/organization's  would abuse that information against someone who may be a very vocal critic of the government or belong to a conservative or patriot onganization etc. All they would need is a name to see if they had a background check done on them, don't know what they would do with the info but I wouldn't put it past the little devious bastdids to use it as a vendetta in some way.

[Oh Shoot]

All the 4473s that are turned into ATF from FFLs who close shop are indeed put into database. The operation was detailed on some documentary I watched, showing the conversion from paper to data. The ATF was very upfront about it, ATF spokesman was on camera explaining it.  Constant backlog, and they even had to store records off site until they could get around to them. Even showed poring through water damaged 4473s from one FFL that closed after a fire, etc.

 

So the "no data base" only applies to the background checks, and obviously not to the 4473s themselves.

 

As far as FFL's only having to keep them for only 20 years, I'd opine that most simply keep them for the entire life of the biz, since it would be extra work to periodically purge them. Same with the 5 year span of the denied ones.

 

Now that there is some provision for electronic record keeping by the FFls, I guess it would be easier to purge them that way, but don't know the specifics of how that works.

 

Cannot remember where I saw the documentary, but it's done by the National Tracing Center of the ATF, and outlined on this Wiki:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Tracing_Center

 

Edit: Oh, here, from the horse's mouth at: http://www.atf.gov/publications/factsheets/factsheet-national-tracing-center.html

 

"Out-of-Business Records: Federal firearms licensees (FFLs) that discontinue business are required by law to send all firearms transaction records to the NTC. Out-of-business records are integral in the firearms tracing process. The NTC receives an average of 1.2 million out-of-business records per month. Since 1968, ATF has received several hundred million such records. ATF's Out-of-Business Records repository is the only one of its kind in the world."

 

"Records Search Requests: ATF utilizes out-of-business FFL records to assist in the investigation of firearm thefts when incomplete identifying information is available. ATF receives thousands of such requests each year from law enforcement jurisdictions where an individual firearm owner has no record of the firearms identifiers and the FFL from whom the owner purchased the firearm is no longer in business. These records have proved pivotal in other criminal investigations as well."

 

Edit 2: Still not complete doc I saw but found vids:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lFdLaYcDNQ

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29Ef1kMrUXU

 

 

 

- OS

Edited July 4, 2013 by Oh Shoot