Ughhh! Our president.

[Marswolf]

You're a rogue!

Hopefully not a rogue, but certainly a rebel. Or independent thinker, as I like to think of it.

BTW, for anyone doing the math, the 1968 job I turned down was a summer job while I was in college. It's a long story that I may have told on here. Not a big secret. I have a very weird government employment history.

But voting comes down to picking the guy who can reasonably win without a miracle and who most supports your views. If you are going to vote for a third party, you might as well stay home. Sometimes that may work out fine, like in Florida in 2000 when the Green Party got Bush elected.

[K191145]

Why is it so hard for some people to understand that not every person who believes in gun rights votes on that single issue alone?

The Constitution and Bill Of Rights is a pretty big issue, not only will Obama/Pelosie destroy the 2nd Amendment, they will destroy the 1st and what's left of the 4th when big bro investigates you and seizes your computer for posting your opinion on such a radical anti-government domestic terroristic forum like Tennessee Gun Owners.

[Im Neero]

The Constitution and Bill Of Rights is a pretty big issue, not only will Obama/Pelosie destroy the 2nd Amendment, they will destroy the 1st and what's left of the 4th when big bro investigates you and seizes your computer for posting your opinion on such a radical anti-government domestic terroristic forum like Tennessee Gun Owners.

Bush has already done a number on the 4th.

[sigmtnman]

These discussions tickle me.

There is no difference in the two parties anymore, they are both controlled by the families with sick money and our country is basically an oligarchy. The only purpose the parties serve is to keep the people divided while we have more of our rights and money taken away.

Ask yourself why Bush Sr and Clinton seem so chummy as well as most of these folks from either side of the party line.

Voting for a 3rd party is equated with throwing away your vote and there is the problem.

With the media owned by 5 or 6 corporations who have vested interest in government contracts and protective laws, you are presented with the candidates they want you to have and unless you are a person of vast wealth, you can not get your message out. Not to mention it only takes a week of those 5 or 6 corporations slinging false stuff before you are out of the running.

There is something wrong with an elected official who wants to serve more than 1 term. They should be so worn out from representing their constituents that they are happy to leave at the end of the term. Instead you have Senators who have not voted in over 6 months because they are too busy running for a higher office and House Speakers running around the country pushing books.

[Guest GUTTERbOY]

The Constitution and Bill Of Rights is a pretty big issue, not only will Obama/Pelosie destroy the 2nd Amendment, they will destroy the 1st and what's left of the 4th when big bro investigates you and seizes your computer for posting your opinion on such a radical anti-government domestic terroristic forum like Tennessee Gun Owners.

What about people who see McCain-Feingold as a heinous violation of the 1A? What about folks who think we've got no business continuing to spend money in Iraq? Or those who'd rather not see the government horn in on people's private relationships?

Is it so hard to imagine that some of those folks are gun supporters? Maybe it's not so easy for them to decide which of their beliefs are more important.

We could go back and forth all day long and argue on a philosphical level as to whether these beliefs are good, bad, consistent, or inconsistent, but in the end it's really immaterial. Everyone has their own individual belief set, and they each have an individual idea of the heirarchy of those beliefs, which ones are most important.

Accusing them of being traitors because they don't put gun rights at the top of the list is, IMO, the kind of thing that will hurt our attempts to continue to get gun legislation shot down. It sends the message that if you don't fit our image of what a gun owner should be, then you're beneath contempt.

Better IMO to welcome them into the fold, engage them in intelligent discussion as necessary, but in the end continue to judge them not by their party affiliation, but by their actions taken in support of RKBA. If their particular manifestation of that is to work within the Democratic party to get gun control off the list of party tenets, then more power to them.

I refuse to judge someone's individual belief based on their party affiliation.

Edited August 20, 2008 by GUTTERbOY

[K191145]

Infringing upon the Bill Of Rights is a traitorous act. I personally don't hold any politician up to hero or savior status like these Obama worshipers do. I simply vote for who I believe is the safest and less likely to destroy America and American traditions and ideals and McCain, while not being my first or 2nd or 3rd choice in the primaries, is my choice over a socialist that I believe will do America irreversible harm and damage in more ways than just gun rights. While I don't like parts of the Patriot Act, think of that tool in the hands of Obama and Pelosie and a DA that will make Janet Reno look like Janet Reno on crack. I guarntee they will reverse the focus of the Patriot Act from Islamic radicals to us.

[Marswolf]

According to the polls, the voters are figuring out Obama. He'll get a boost with the convention, but he's really not doing too well.

[K191145]

According to the polls, the voters are figuring out Obama. He'll get a boost with the convention, but he's really not doing too well.

Well I hope people will wise up and realize what would become of America under an Obama administration and congress controlled by Pelosie and Ried. Scary thought.

[Guest GUTTERbOY]

Infringing upon the Bill Of Rights is a traitorous act. I personally don't hold any politician up to hero or savior status like these Obama worshipers do. I simply vote for who I believe is the safest and less likely to destroy America and American traditions and ideals and McCain, while not being my first or 2nd or 3rd choice in the primaries, is my choice over a socialist that I believe will do America irreversible harm and damage in more ways than just gun rights. While I don't like parts of the Patriot Act, think of that tool in the hands of Obama and Pelosie and a DA that will make Janet Reno look like Janet Reno on crack. I guarntee they will reverse the focus of the Patriot Act from Islamic radicals to us.

And I agree with pretty much all of what you wrote there. Speaking personally, I'd really like to go with my conscience and vote for Bob Barr this fall, but I can't convince myself to do it, simply because the more I learn about Obama, the more convinced I am that I really, really don't want him on Pennsylvania Avenue. I'm not convinced that an Obama presidency is certain to bring the kind of serious stuff that some folks purport, but it's enough of a concern to me that I feel compelled to vote against him instead of for Barr.

The only thing I'm taking issue with here is the assertion I see here, and in other places, that no one can possibly be pro-2A And support a Democratic candidate. I just want to establish some perspective here- it's natural for those of us residing here to tend towards that standpoint, as we're obviously all gunnies of various fervency.

I just ask that you consider, for a moment, that maybe there's a forum somewhere dedicated to, I dunno, campaign funding. Suppose these people are, by and large, fervent in their belief that campaign finance reform is an evil blight upon our great country. Suppose that McCain-Feingold is to them what the AWB was to us. Might not someone there say, "How can anyone claim to be pro-free speech and vote for John McCain?"

I realize fully that this is probably something of an exxageration over some people's beliefs, but the point is for it to be a mental exercise in understanding that while a person might believe in the RKBA, it might be several places down on their list of Important Political Views. And I think that we should be careful not to alienate these folks, when they might well be good allies to have.

I'd absolutely love to see the pro-gun Democrats start heavily influencing their party. I'd like to see the Dems forced to either abandon gun control as a party tenet, or become irrelevant. I'd like to see the gun control issue go the way of civil rights- a hotly contested topic once upon a time, but now it's just a given that no viable candidate could possibly support segregation.

Rather than reject these pro-gun Dems, I'd like to help them reform their party, so that maybe, within my lifetime, we can put our voting focus on issues besides this one that we're so tied to. It might well be a pipe dream on my part, but by God, it's worth fighting for, if you ask me.

I guess I kind of have in interesting personal perspective on this. I am active in my local Libertarian party, and among Libertarians, I see a lot of people who seem to think that you have to "qualify" to be a true Libertarian. With those people, you'd better not even think of not voting third-party in an election, or else you're a sellout. Never mind what youre reasoning might be, you're perpetuating the status quo and that makes you a traitor! And God forbid you decide to work within the Republican party to bring about some reform and align them more closely with principles of real freedom. At that point, you might as well be sleeping with the enemy.

I sincerely believe that these kinds of feelings are part of the reason that the Lib party continues to be a non-starter at anything but the local, or maybe state level. Because rather than embrace a diversity of views, we run off people that might be brothers-in-arms.

So here's my deal: I believe very strongly in the Second Amendment. I believe that the RKBA is the ultimate gaurantor of all our other rights. I will therefore do whatever I can to prevent Obama, a fairly well-professed anti, from making his way into my Oval Office. This includes holding my nose and voting for a man who, on the whole, is pretty left-leaning for a supposed Republican. I will not, however, write off any person who claims to be pro-2A and votes for him. I may think they're horribly misguided, and I may even tell them so, but I will continue to view them as an ally, however tepid, in the fight to protect my rights.

[Marswolf]

The only thing I'm taking issue with here is the assertion I see here, and in other places, that no one can possibly be pro-2A And support a Democratic candidate.

There are certainly pro-2A folks who are Democrats. Len is an example. Unfortunately, if you elect them, they will vote with the nutso-Democrat anti-gun leadership. The art of arm twisting is very strong and not that many elected folks will see their power diminished by voting against party policy. That's how Naifeh retains the Tennessee House leadership.

If you are pro-2A, you had better hold your nose and vote for the Republicans.

Thank goodness we will be getting rid of a super-idiot Republican US Rep in my district and replacing him with a less-idiot Republican US Rep next January. Mostly, I hope we can retain the Presidency and keep the Democrats from getting 60 votes in the Senate.

[G27]

So here's my deal: I believe very strongly in the Second Amendment. I believe that the RKBA is the ultimate gaurantor of all our other rights. I will therefore do whatever I can to prevent Obama, a fairly well-professed anti, from making his way into my Oval Office. This includes holding my nose and voting for a man who, on the whole, is pretty left-leaning for a supposed Republican. I will not, however, write off any person who claims to be pro-2A and votes for him. I may think they're horribly misguided, and I may even tell them so, but I will continue to view them as an ally, however tepid, in the fight to protect my rights.

A fantastic finish to a great post. Thank you.

[Guest 44M]

I don`t understand why people get so particular when it comes to voting, every delegat gets money and financial suport from the same sources and from the same people...congress is all democrats and still, they sign every time Bush asks for more money for the war...so, what`s up with that picture...???...all those little differences are here to keep us, middleclass/working man occupied while politicians are cashing their checks, republicans and democrats....is Obama gonna pull some miracle and turn economy up..???don`t know....but somehow I don`t feel comfortable with 70+ year old president in White House, I believe that we have planty of inteligent young people in this country who would do a great job as a president of USA and bring some fresh and new ideas in Washington...but somehow, it seems to me that those people are out of the loop and they don`t get the chance they deserve (probably because the big corporations who run the whole show in the first place, don`t invest their millions in young and free spirit people but in someone they can control)...

Db

[Guest unreconstructed1]

I believe that we have planty of inteligent young people in this country who would do a great job as a president of USA and bring some fresh and new ideas in Washington...but somehow, it seems to me that those people are out of the loop and they don`t get the chance they deserve

you are quite right. that is why I am taking this opportunity to announce my candidacy for president