Ughhh! Our president.

[Smith]

Of course it has. "Liberals" like to think they follow the strict definition, but mainly ascribe to "a." While it feels good, it means without any formal right/wrong basis. Secular humanism is a better definition of today's "Liberals", but that doesn't work as well in politics. Kinda like the name of their political party.

[strickj]

....and Mike come in with the one,two --using boxing commentators voice--

[Rightwinger]

and just as Liberal has been basterdized, so has conservative.

and yes Mike, there are few things that will get me riled to the point of putting up my fists but that would be one of them.

Why? Because I believe there are limits and lines that should not be crossed in human society. I will not cross or condone them. No matter the situation, I would not allow my girlfriend, wife, daughter to have an abortion, its murder, just as I can't see Kervokian style assisted suicide.

My life, while apparently to simple for some to understand is to work hard, do the right thing and expect it from those around me.

I give to all I can, my box is full of continued efforts to get me to pay more to charity than I can handle. I look forward to any progress we can make, not stuck in the sand...but the changes put forth by "progressives" today are generally ones that violate my limitations.

My whole problem with the left side is they can look aside at the abortion, homosexual, etc, etc items and say that the rest of the goals of liberalism are good. I can't. I could go on and on but it will fall on deaf ears.

Back to the finish of the race, some Olympics and a nap before going to work tonight.

[Mike.357]

I would not allow my girlfriend, wife, daughter to have an abortion, its murder,

ultimately how do you have any say over that?

Because I believe there are limits and lines that should not be crossed in human society. I will not cross or condone them. No matter the situation,

but you do condone physical violence. I am sorry but you sound like a hypocrite.

And therefore your words mean a lot less

[Smith]

but you do condone physical violence. I am sorry but you sound like a hypocrite.

And therefore your words mean a lot less

I don't think he said that was a line not to be crossed. I don't think there was a contradiction.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

ultimately how do you have any say over that?

Beat me to it... lol.

---

That said, Mike, please use the quote feature (correctly/entirely) so we know who the hell you're quoting at any given moment/reference.

You're obviously taking the time to use the tags... might as well use them completely, and associate them to their owners. There's been a few times I've had to back-track to figure out who you were quoting.

[Mike.357]

don't think he said that was a line not to be crossed.

does not matter if he said it or not, how could you be against the other stuff but be alright with physical violence over simple words.

[Mike.357]

There's been a few times I've had to back-track to figure out who you were quoting

good

see my sig line please

[Rightwinger]

ultimately how do you have any say over that?

but you do condone physical violence. I am sorry but you sound like a hypocrite.

And therefore your words mean a lot less

Just like any soldier, there is a good fight worth fighting for. We proved it in WW1 WWII, Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom.

Just like any husband/father, protect the family from harm at any cost, that's why I have carried a firearm.

I never said I didn't condone violence...its the most used form or persuasion on the individual level to the Nation State level.

Are you saying you don't have anything worth fighting for Mike?

I am a bit dismayed by your responses today, but then you are always involved in every discussion.

I didn't start this thread. I tend to not start threads, especially on politics, I think I did start one on unions though..meh. I'm getting out of this thread now. We have obviously come to the point in American Politics that its totally polarized.

Edited August 10, 2008 by Rightwinger

[Guest Verbal Kint]

good

see my sig line please

Okay...

You're not offending me by any means. Just trying to offer a suggestion so the rest of the viewers (myself included) can better read your thoughts and comments -- which, last I checked, was the sole purpose of a message forum... communication.

[Mike.357]

anything worth fighting for Mike

certainly not name calling or percieved name calling

[Rightwinger]

so its just the line where I set the "condone violence" level?

Otherwise violence is fine with you, at certain levels, of which your determination is the correct one.

Hmmm

[Guest Lefty]

I didn't start this thread. I tend to not start threads, especially on politics, I think I did start one on unions though..meh. I'm getting out of this thread now. We have obviously come to the point in American Politics that its totally polarized.

It has become very polarized and has been so in the past. I know that we as Americans will prevail over any failure of our political system. With the New World being so distant from the origin both human kind and advanced civilization it was ensured that all who came here would be the most intrepid, hardy, idealistic, and bravest people on the planet. Including the first natives.

I started this thread, not to be yelled at, but to seriously ask, "Do people still support this guy?" No, I don't like abortion and would have no part of it in my family, I think every law abiding citizen should be armed, and homosexuality is gross. I also don't have or want the power or right to make people live the way I do. Like Hendrix said, "I'm the one that's got to die when its my time to die, so let me live my life the way I want to." Americans have those rights, and should. I am a proud liberal.

Bush has gutted the Justice dept. to remake it into a political arm. He's actively propagandized the public through friendly media corps., and made interference of economic activity a terrorist act by his own discretion and definition. I think those are fascist activities. He's been aided by the congress under both major parties. It smells like trouble to me.

There was a group of business men who protested huge tax breaks to a company largely owned by members of the House. They vandalized $1,000,000 of product belonging to that favored company. Under the Patriot act they would be Terrorists. They are my kind of hero.

[Mike.357]

I am still in amazement that you would fist fight a person, or heck I dunno gun fight a person for walking up to you and saying " you are a liberal"

There certainly is a time and a place for violence to be used. And the determination of when violence is allowed would be up to law. I am not going to fight someone over name calling.

[Smith]

Bush has gutted the Justice dept. to remake it into a political arm. He's actively propagandized the public through friendly media corps., and made interference of economic activity a terrorist act by his own discretion and definition. I think those are fascist activities. He's been aided by the congress under both major parties. It smells like trouble to me.

You do realize the Justice Department was gutted by Clinton (just like most Pres. do) and filled with his bureaucrats, as well as the CIA, FBI, General Staff, etc. The problems Bush has had is he did not clear all the Clinton cronies out (like most Presidents do): Justice Dept., CIA, FBI, General Staff, on down. the Valerie Plame deal is a good example. My biggest gripe with Bush is he didn't clean house and now is paying for it by being undercut by his own beurocracies.

As far as friendly media corps. I can start with the statistical facts of pro Bush vs. con Bush stories from the media, but i don't think the facts really matter to you. If he had so much propaganda, his approval ratings would not be where they are now. Please see my sig and follow instructions. Your talking points are tiresome.

Edited August 10, 2008 by Smith

[Smith]

I am still in amazement that you would fist fight a person, or heck I dunno gun fight a person for walking up to you and saying " you are a liberal"

There certainly is a time and a place for violence to be used. And the determination of when violence is allowed would be up to law. I am not going to fight someone over name calling.

I'm thinking it was mostly tongue-in-check with a little more meat and you are gladly making the mountain from the mole hill.

BTW, I seem to remember this little exchange starting when you felt he called you a liberal! Fight on!

[Guest Lefty]

You do realize the Justice Department was gutted by Clinton (just like most Pres. do) and filled with his bureaucrats, as well as the CIA, FBI, General Staff, etc. The problems Bush has had is he did not clear all the Clinton cronies out (like most Presidents do): Justice Dept., CIA, FBI, General Staff, on down. the Valerie Plame deal is a good example. My biggest gripe with Bush is he didn't clean house and now is paying for it by being undercut by his own beurocracies.

As far as friendly media corps. I can start with the statistical facts of pro Bush vs. con Bush stories from the media, but i don't think the facts really matter to you. If he had so much propaganda, his approval ratings would not be where they are now. Please see my sig and follow instructions. Your talking points are tiresome.

I thought Bush was going to fire whoever was complicit in outing Plame. Did he catch that person or people? Did he fire them? Or did propaganda convince enough people that it was no big deal.

[jughead]

no matter whos side one is on our president cannot do much more than our congress critters will let him

[TGO David]

Sorry,

Good LUCK Lefty, you poor SOB

I feel sorry for anyone that follows the leftist/lib way of thinking. They have some planks in the platform that could not allow me to associate with them for ANY reason, abortion, 2nd Amendment, more gubment, homosex rights/marriage. Any ONE of these should be enough to distance your self from it.

I could have someone cuss me up and down and take it but call me a Dem or a Lib and I'll lose my job and go to jail fighting them.

So I feel sorry for you that you "feel" the way you do. Good luck again.

Stick to debating the issues and not the person. We don't need personal attacks here from either camp.

[Luckyforward]

Stick to debating the issues and not the person. We don't need personal attacks here from either camp.

+1

A person's worth is judged by much more important criteria than if he or she agrees with me on every conceivable issue.

[clipslinger]

Bush 's biggest problem was ignoring the obvious and pursuing a personal agenda. Logic dictates that Saudi should have been attacked and not Iraq. The very sizable tax breaks levied on the "more comfortable" in our nation never trickled back down to the lower masses. I am proud that I didnt vote for him. Back in the late 1700's some liberal individuals with the ungodly heathenistic idea of breaking away from the system seemed to do alright. They were called patriots. The far right scares me just as much as the far left does. I am not comfortable with anybody saying "we know whats best for you". both suppress liberty. No ones pastor has the right to dictate what I do or say. Whether hes a monk, bishop, preist, medicine man, rabbi whatever. I think Bush was the worst president weve had in my lifetime, maybe well have some luck with mccain.

[Smith]

Bush 's biggest problem was ignoring the obvious and pursuing a personal agenda. Logic dictates that Saudi should have been attacked and not Iraq. The very sizable tax breaks levied on the "more comfortable" in our nation never trickled back down to the lower masses. I am proud that I didnt vote for him. Back in the late 1700's some liberal individuals with the ungodly heathenistic idea of breaking away from the system seemed to do alright. They were called patriots. The far right scares me just as much as the far left does. I am not comfortable with anybody saying "we know whats best for you". both suppress liberty. No ones pastor has the right to dictate what I do or say. Whether hes a monk, bishop, preist, medicine man, rabbi whatever. I think Bush was the worst president weve had in my lifetime, maybe well have some luck with mccain.

Carter maybe? Facts not feelings.

[bteague2]

On the original topic I still support Bush, if anything I'd like him to be a little more conservative. I would love to see anyone here stick to their guns when 98% of the world not just the USA but the world is telling you your wrong. (I could have sworn there was a smiley of two brass balls but don't see it now, use your imagination here.)

[clipslinger]

Besides he looks about half tanked in the clip! lol. Carter really never had a chance did he? Nixon the criminal followed by Ford the incredible inept one. Country gearing down from a war economy, the advent of japanese industry and rising inflation.As I recall when he left office we werent in near the debt we are in now, or embroiled in a very costly two fronted war. Im pretty sure Carter had the Arabs and the Jews sit down for talks at camp david not stirred into jihad mode. Oh and I dont remember Carter outing C.I.A. agents for personal vendetta or the farmers of America posting record proffits due to his administrations diligent efforts to empower them.Facts not emotion.

[TGO David]

Besides he looks about half tanked in the clip! lol. Carter really never had a chance did he? Nixon the criminal followed by Ford the incredible inept one. Country gearing down from a war economy, the advent of japanese industry and rising inflation.As I recall when he left office we werent in near the debt we are in now, or embroiled in a very costly two fronted war. Im pretty sure Carter had the Arabs and the Jews sit down for talks at camp david not stirred into jihad mode. Oh and I dont remember Carter outing C.I.A. agents for personal vendetta or the farmers of America posting record proffits due to his administrations diligent efforts to empower them.Facts not emotion.

The Carter Administration is directly responsible for our current predicament with Iran. Prior to Carter, we had a very strong relationship with Iran via Shah Reza Pahlav. When the Carter Administration turned its back on Pahlav, Pahlav was deposed and Ayatollah Ruholla Khomeini returned from exile in France and assumed power. Ayatollah Khomeini was certainly no friend of the United States and his assumption of power marked a serious swing in anti-Western, anti-American hatred in Iran's government.

You might remember this as the catalyst for the Iran US Hostage crisis that started in 1979 and lasted for 444 days.

So yeah, Carter was and remains the biggest Presidential F-Up in both your and my lifetimes. Bush doesn't hold a candle to him.