Rules of Engagement for the Armed Private Citizen - Massad Ayoob

[RobertNashville]

I'll be heading out to Rangemaster in Memphis at Zero dark thirty tomorrow (Saturday) morning for my first training class this year; a two day, 20 hour class with Massad Ayoob on the rules of engagement for armed law-abiding private citizens.  While certainly not as "glitzy" as rifle, shotgun or pistol training on a range such as I've taken at Tactical Response, this is a class I've been looking forward to for quite a while!  :)

 

For those of you who aren't familiar with Massad he is someone you really need to become familiar with and especially some of his excellent books such as the classic "In the Gravest Extreme; The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection (ISBN-10: 0936279001)

 

I don't claim any special talent at doing such things but I'll try to offer my impressions of the class and highlights of what was covered!

 

http://massadayoobgroup.com/

 

 

[mikegideon]

Should be time well spent. Then, you can apply what you learned while trying to make it out of Memphis :)

 

I'm kidding... didn't y'all see the smiley?

[midtennchip]

Robert:

Excellent choice of classes. Mass is great. Please let me know if he has any different take than we discussed a few months ago.

Chip

[Guest whamonkey]

Should be an excellent class....the man is completely legit.

[Chazmr]

I have several of his books and have definitely been impressed with his knowledge and approach. 

I would be very interested in your review after the class.

Have fun!

[mikegideon]

Should be an excellent class....the man is completely legit.

 

I think so.

[tnhawk]

Will there be a field trip in memphis, as a final exam?

[RobertNashville]

Well, guys (and girls); this has been a very full day. Massad goes 20 hours per day with short breaks about every hour or so; even lunch is a quick affair.

The topics today are so many I don't even know where to start. One thing he suggested to do is, in a couple of weeks, type our out handwritten notes (of which I have dozens of pages) so as to better clarify our thoughts and recollections AND to be used as evidence of our training should we ever be in the situation of being involved in a SD shooting. I suppose in a nutshell, this class is really all about how to stay out of being charged in a SD shooting and if we are, educating us on what to expect from a prosecutor and how to counter the attack we absolutely will receive from the prosecution.

As Massad said, from the prosecutor's prospective...

"if the law is on your side, pound on the law...if the facts are on your side...pound on the facts...if neither are on your side; pound on the witness." If you've been watching the trial in Sanford FL I think you've seen that this past week.

He also said something else I think is worth passing along tonight which is...

"If you act to the standard by which you know you will be judged you should not be found wanting in the judgment"

That's a lot of what this class is about...knowing the standard.

I'll have more to say later however, tomorrow is al propriety information which I have given my word not to repeat, post, blog about etc. so I won't be able to actually give any details about what is covered but I'll will give my impression of the class overall...so far, I'm more than getting my money's worth! :)

[Guest TankerHC]

I love reading Ayoob. Thats one guy that definitely knows what he is talking about. But man, he got me into a very heated discussion with some family members who are also fellow shooters. There was a negligent discharge that someone called an accidental discharge. Of course the "There is no such thing as accidental when it comes to firearms, its negligent". Well just out of curiosity I googled Ayoob and Cooper to see what they thought on the subject. And the answer (In a very good article about the massive number of negligent discharges, especially by Law Enforcement when the Glock started to be widely issued) was YES, there is such a thing as an accidental discharge. But as I recall (Its been a while), there is only ONE TIME that a discharge can be considered "Accidental".

 

When you are in a competition, facing downrange towards your targets, with a loaded chamber and you draw and fire a round before being on target.

 

Thats it, the only time. Everything else is negligent.

 

Of course I got the "Thats wrong", but Ayoob says its true, Ill take his word for it.

[RobertNashville]

I love reading Ayoob. Thats one guy that definitely knows what he is talking about. But man, he got me into a very heated discussion with some family members who are also fellow shooters. There was a negligent discharge that someone called an accidental discharge. Of course the "There is no such thing as accidental when it comes to firearms, its negligent". Well just out of curiosity I googled Ayoob and Cooper to see what they thought on the subject. And the answer (In a very good article about the massive number of negligent discharges, especially by Law Enforcement when the Glock started to be widely issued) was YES, there is such a thing as an accidental discharge. But as I recall (Its been a while), there is only ONE TIME that a discharge can be considered "Accidental".

 

When you are in a competition, facing downrange towards your targets, with a loaded chamber and you draw and fire a round before being on target.

 

Thats it, the only time. Everything else is negligent.

 

Of course I got the "Thats wrong", but Ayoob says its true, Ill take his word for it.

Massad mentioned the Colonel many times during the weekend. It was very evident that he had a great deal of respect for the Colonel and equally obvious that there were points they did not agree on.

 

Part of that was that Colonel Cooper was coming from an background of the military and that showed through in some of his teaching and opinions.  But what works excellently well on a battlefield doesn't necessarily mean it's the right thing for the armed citizen (or LEO) on the street and that's part of what caused their difference of opinions on some things.

[Guest nra37922]

Rules of engagement - courtesy of GZ trial - Don't get caught....

[Guest Bassman17SC]

His articles are the only reasons I subscribe to 'Combat Handguns.'  It sounds like a great opportunity.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Bassman17SC

[Guest TankerHC]

Massad mentioned the Colonel many times during the weekend. It was very evident that he had a great deal of respect for the Colonel and equally obvious that there were points they did not agree on.

 

Part of that was that Colonel Cooper was coming from an background of the military and that showed through in some of his teaching and opinions.  But what works excellently well on a battlefield doesn't necessarily mean it's the right thing for the armed citizen (or LEO) on the street and that's part of what caused their difference of opinions on some things.

 

 

I wonder if Ayoob disagrees with Cooper on the "Caliber Question". I watched a video a couple of years ago where Cooper basically said the Caliber question was a bunch of BS. It didnt matter if you have a .25 or an Elephant gun. The person coming out on the good end of a gunfight will be the person who gets off the first shot "accurately". To prove his point, he referenced the Los Angelos Bank Robbery shootout. Thousands of rounds flying and no one getting hit and the BG's not going down. It wasnt a matter of having body armor or not having body armor or being outgunned (The Police) because the Police had run to a nearby LGS and grabbed a bunch of AR's. What took out the BG's was a couple of well placed shots. Body Armor or no body Armor, Outgunned or not outgunned, it wasnt the lack of anything that took out the BG's, it was someone disciplined who took aim and fired a well placed shot.

[173rdABN]

This guy actually pushes a bad button with me. He said unless you have killed someone, you shouldn't be teaching.

Well. I plan old don't agree with that on many levels.

So, that makes me refuse to read, or listen to a single thing he says.

[RobertNashville]

This guy actually pushes a bad button with me. He said unless you have killed someone, you shouldn't be teaching.

Well. I plan old don't agree with that on many levels.

So, that makes me refuse to read, or listen to a single thing he says.

Then I humbly suggest that you are missing out on learning from the person who is likely the most talented teacher in pistol-craft that has ever lived.

 

In fact, the Col pretty much invented teaching gun fighting for civilians as well as much of the bedrock knowledge we have of firearms handling/use today...the hundreds of schools and thousands of quality trainers we have today really didn't exist at all until relatively recently...the Col was a trail blazer that made possible what most people take for granted today.

 

You don't have to agree with everything that someone says or believes to learn from them.

Edited July 10, 2013 by RobertNashville

[runco]

I somehow missed this posting.  I know of Massad Ayoob and did not know of his classes.  I just learned about his classes while listening to Tom Gresham's radio pod cast.  I am very much interested in either his MAG-20 or MAG-80 classes. 

 

http://massadayoobgroup.com/?page_id=7

[RobertNashville]

I somehow missed this posting.  I know of Massad Ayoob and did not know of his classes.  I just learned about his classes while listening to Tom Gresham's radio pod cast.  I am very much interested in either his MAG-20 or MAG-80 classes. 

 

http://massadayoobgroup.com/?page_id=7

I may have my "numbers" mixed up but if I understood Mass correctly, taking the MAG 20 and then the MAG 40 is the equivalent of the MAG 80 class...the MAG 40 is the hands-on live fire 20 hours class while the MAG 20 is the legal side of it.  There are locations in the area that teach the Firearm portion of his course so that you can get both parts in. :)