Question about a DQ at IDPA match

[Guest abailey362]

Guys, I have a question about a DQ that happened at an IDPA match this past weekend in Hartselle, AL. I haven't posted here in a while, but wanted to get an opinion without it appearing I was "calling out" another member on another forum, who was the MD/safety officer.

 

 

If a stage is modified during a match because the original setup "encouraged" breaking the 180 rule, should someone be dq'd forbreaking the rule before it was changed?

 

I was the 3rd or 4th shooter on the stage. I do not have a layout, but will try to describe the stage. Shooter starts about 3 ft from first 3 targets. There is a wall on the left. Shooter starts by retreating and engaging the first 3 targets. At the end of the wall, you turn to the left and proceed down another wall that is angled back away from the berm at about 35-40 degrees. there is a second wall after a gap. There is a 4th target at about 170 degrees from the first wall, and you have to hug it pretty tight to get a shot. after engaging the far target, there are 2 more towards the back berm that have to be engaged from cover of the angled wall. I was close to the wall when engaging them because of the angle required to engage the 4th target. I pulled back around to reload and had to move around the wall to bring the gun to me. at this point I broke the 180, and string was called to stop. I was dq'd.

After the next shooter ran through and was close to doing the same, they moved the 35-40 degree wall to 10 degrees or so and opened up the gap so you weren't so close to the wall when engaging target 4.

 

I am not disagreeing that I broke a rule. I took the dq, didn't argue, but pointed out that the setup made it easy to do. stayed and watched a few more stages before I left.

 

 

[TGO David]

IMO a safety rule is a safety rule and there's no margin for mulligans.  The DQ exists to remind you that you violated a rule that could have put other people at jeopardy, not to punish you.  The stage may have been designed incorrectly but the burden of safety still rests on the shooter.

 

Did they not allow you guys to do a walk-through of the stage before you shot it?  That should have shown that there was a problem, especially if more than one shooter was eventually DQ'd because of it.

[peejman]

While I agree that the burden of safety lies with the shooter, if they modified the stage they should at least give anyone who shot before the modification the option to re-run the stage.  There's the argument that you'd get an unfair advantage doing it twice, but the same applies to those to shot it after the modification. 

[Jonnin]

No, they have to stick to their safety rules.   It stinks for you but exceptions to safety are a slippery slope.  If it were a technical type DQ, then yes, you should be forgiven if they mod the stage.

 

Try being left handed....   One of the most frustrating things about 30% of IDPA stages is the right hand design that has (a left hander) having to run parallel to the crowd with his left hand facing the crowd.  There is no way to do it!  You have to spend time holstering and drawing again, or run sideways, or backwards, while the RH guys can just book it holding the gun out to face downrange.   Changing hands, also frowned on, as is holding it pointed downrange but crossing your body (at the 180 degree axis, in case you loaded  up a bunch of kennedy killer ammo). 

[BrasilNuts]

Appendix FIVE-Course Design Rational

"Keep contestants moving at a downrange angle so their muzzle direction will be safe. The single greatest concern for muzzle direction issues in IDPA is a stage or scenario that requires the contestant to move along a line parallel to the firing line. Typically this involves a 'wall stage' where the shooter must traverse from one point to another to engage targets. It is far too easy for the shooter's muzzle to be directed in an unsafe direction. Sound course design should always avoid this type of problem. Always be alert to this issue for both right- and left-handed shooters. IDPA strongly recommends that extreme care be taken to set up match stages so it is natural for the firearm to remain pointed down range while the course of fire is shot.
One of the great sins of many course designers is the practice of getting overly complex. Complexity is the enemy of good course design." Edited June 25, 2013 by BrasilNuts

[Spiffy]

Current Rule Book IDPA

 

S.1.B  A 180 degree rule does NOT exist and will NOT be grounds for a DQ.

 

So was it a IDPA rule you broke or a local range rule? One is contestable (since you can't make up rules as you go along) and one isn't.

 

 

 

 

Edited to be more clear and add the language from the rule book.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Spiffy

[HOGNUT]

Spiffy is correct. The current rule in IDPA is what we go by. There is no 180 degree rule until the new rulebook is released. You may have broken a muzzle point but that is hard to tell with the description given. Were there marked muzzle safe points or discussed during the walk thru? Really hard to give an opinion without being there. Local matches are not sanctioned events but they still should follow the same rules(at least we hope they have ethics), concerning safety, concealment garment, legal IDPA stages, etc. If a stage is changed during the match, all competitors must re-shoot the stage again or the MD must throw the stage out from the competition.


There are two kinds of people that shoot competitively, ones that have made a visit to Dairy Queen for a banana split and ones that will go. Sometimes people's head are not always into the match and they can get distracted.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

I was not at this match in question so this is not directed at them, but I have seen more than one match where little things get changed from one squad to another because no one caught the obvious problem with the way the stage might have been originally designed before the squads started shooting.

 

That is why I like to be there for the RO walk through if I can be. I just have a knack for seeing the unintended consequences of stage design.  But this is club level, not sanctioned matches I'm talking about. And it is not just specific to IDPA....I've seen the same thing in SASS matches. DQs suck but in the grand scheme of things it is not the end of the world.

 

I missed finishing 1st overall at a club level  match one time because of "faulty" instructions I received as to whether a metal target was an "opponent" or just a "stop plate".

 

The instructions were to shoot all the "bad guy" IDPA targets, drag the dummy behind cover from them and then shoot the stop plate" to stop the clock.

 

The instructions said it was a "stop plate" not a"bad guy", "adversary", "opponent", etc.

 

I even asked for clarification on whether it was to be viewed as a "Bad guy" or as just a stop plate and was told "it is just a plate". Yet I got a procedural on that stage for not dragging the dummy far enough behind cover so that it was not exposed to the plate....... While the dummy was 100% behind cover from ALL the paper "bad guy" IDPA targets it was still exposed to the "stop plate". I asked that if it was NOT a BG and JUST a plate how it could "hurt" the dummy....they looked very confused and after a minute said well....you have to have it all the way behind cover.....

 

I pointed out that from the vantage point of the paper it WAS behind cover....

 

I then reminded them they said it was a just a plate and as such was not a BG...

 

But they insisted it was supposed to be COMPLETELY behind cover, not just behind cover from the "bad guy" targets so  I took a procedural and finished 2nd by about 2 seconds ....I think they were embarrassed that they had given ambiguous instructions that I was able to use to not have to drag the dummy as far as they did -about 5 feet less-....but I was following their instructions. They pretty much said ..."well that is what we TOLD you but not what we MEANT" (?????) ..... I think they also realized that they needed to do a better job of reconciling the INTENT of the stage and the written stage instructions. 

 

Moral of the story....club level matches are just that ....club level matches.... and not every contingency is always planned for and the intent and the wording of stage instructions are not always congruent. All you can really do is smile and say "O.K." and realize that it is not the end of the world. 

Edited June 25, 2013 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Guest abailey362]

180 was discussed before the match, so i'd consider it a local rule.

the wall was actually angled back, forcing you to move at an angle towards the crows and away from down range.

 

there was a walkthrough, but not enough for everyone to walk step by step through the stage. If it had been air gunned, I think someone would have found the fault in the wall placement. the wall also had a leg extending further towards the crowd, causing you to step further back when moving across the opening, or stepping across the support leg.

 

i'm not mad, definitely not the end of the world, but I just wanted some outside opinion to make sure I wasn't being biased here.

 

i'm just now getting back into the game and hopefully will be able to make it up to mtsc and chrpc for some matches in the near future.

[TGO David]

Don't let the DQ get stuck in your head or it'll ruin your enjoyment of the game.  At the end of the day that's all it really is anyway... a game.  As long as everyone leaves with the same number of holes they came in with, you all live to punch paper another day.  :)