Are you prepared to defend yourself with a blade?

[JAB]

I used to work with a guy who started Golden Gloves boxing when he was just a kid, was experienced in more than one martial art, was a third-degree blackbelt in Isshin Ryu and who, apparently, founded his own style, was a former Airborne Ranger and who had written more than one book about martial arts, both Eastern and Western.  I figured he would be a good person to ask about knife fighting techniques and so one day I did.

 

Michael's response was, basically, that getting into a knife fight is just about the stupidest thing a person could do.  He went on to say that, as a knife is not a ranged weapon, if you have time to pull your own knife then you probably have time to run - and he had no qualms in saying that, given the chance - even with all of his fighting experience and knowledge - running away is exactly what he would do.

 

When I pointed out that there might be times when running was not an option his response was, much like UncleJak said above, that in such a situation one should not think so much about not getting cut because even if you 'win' the fight, getting cut is pretty much inevitable.  Instead, he said, the best you could hope for would be to 'choose' where you were going to get cut and be ready for it to happen.

 

I am not trained to fight with a knife nor do I think I would pursue such training at this point.  If given no other choice, I would attempt to use a knife to defend myself but I see such use as being more along the lines of a 'get off me'/'belly' option.  I'm not going to be using techniques, feints and so on.  Instead, I am going to be stabbing/slicing the closest body part I can reach at pretty much point-blank range with all the ferocity that desperation, anger and fear can muster.

 

Honestly, if I were going to do some form of 'melee' training, I'd probably be more interested in using a walking stick/cane.  Along those lines, in the absence of a gun for SD, this is my idea of a 'knife' fight:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9IjXMitpiA

Edited June 26, 2013 by JAB

[UncleJak]

I used to work with a guy who started Golden Gloves boxing when he was just a kid, was experienced in more than one martial art, was a third-degree blackbelt in Isshin Ryu and who, apparently, founded his own style, was a former Airborne Ranger and who had written more than one book about martial arts, both Eastern and Western. I figured he would be a good person to ask about knife fighting techniques and so one day I did.

Michael's response was, basically, that getting into a knife fight is just about the stupidest thing a person could do. He went on to say that, as a knife is not a ranged weapon, if you have time to pull your own knife then you probably have time to run - and he had no qualms in saying that, given the chance - even with all of his fighting experience and knowledge - running away is exactly what he would do.

When I pointed out that there might be times when running was not an option his response was, much like UncleJak said above, that in such a situation one should not think so much about not getting cut because even if you 'win' the fight, getting cut is pretty much inevitable. Instead, he said, the best you could hope for would be to 'choose' where you were going to get cut and be ready for it to happen.

I am not trained to fight with a knife nor do I think I would pursue such training at this point. If given no other choice, I would attempt to use a knife to defend myself but I see such use as being more along the lines of a 'get off me'/'belly' option. I'm not going to be using techniques, feints and so on. Instead, I am going to be stabbing/slicing the closest body part I can reach at pretty much point-blank range with all the ferocity that desperation, anger and fear can muster.

Honestly, if I were going to do some form of 'melee' training, I'd probably be more interested in using a walking stick/cane. Along those lines, in the absence of a gun for SD, this is my idea of a 'knife' fight:

controling where you get cut was a large part of my training. And as it has been previously said, knives make nasty wounds regardless where you get cut

sent barefoot from the hills of Tennessee

[jtmaze]

The thought of having to use a blade to defend myself is a grizzly one. If you think you can handle it then maybe you should field dress and butcher a deer(which I'm fairly comfortable with) or filet a fish, and I guarantee slicing another human being will be atleast 10 times worse. If it came down to my life or his I would like to believe I could do it, but I also think it would haunt me.

 

The thought of having to use a blade to defend myself is a grizzly one. If you think you can handle it then maybe you should field dress and butcher a deer(which I'm fairly comfortable with) or filet a fish, and I guarantee slicing another human being will be atleast 10 times worse. If it came down to my life or his I would like to believe I could do it, but I also think it would haunt m

I can Field dress, hang, skin, Quarter and put on Ice a deer in less than 30 Minutes when pressed for time...A person is a different story!!!!!!!!! I would be lucky to escape with my bladder intact. If I am down to knife fighting I am in big Trouble anyway. I am the guy who brings a gun to a knife fight not the other way around. I am sure Everyone here knows the 21 foot rule anyway, Even with a gun you will be cut from someone within 21 feet.

Edited June 26, 2013 by jtmaze

[Jamie Jackson]

Definitely jtmaze.

 

21 feet is way to close (Tueller Drill). So is the 32 feet used in the Magliato Drill.

We ran these for time with a group of about a dozen folks...aging from early 20's to early 50's (me). Recognition to reaction time without a buzzer starting the action (OODA loop thing again) can be surprising. Stepping off the "X"...and heck...running like hell to cover...are viable options. Avoidance is the best option.

 

In case anyone is interested the Dennis Tueller article is linked below. Good reading, imho.

 

[url=http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm] How Close is Too Close? by Dennis Tueller[/url]

[E4 No More]

Considering that the legal blade length limit is 4" I don't think about this at all.

[Spots]

Considering that the legal blade length limit is 4" I don't think about this at all.

4" blade will do a heck of a lot of damage.

sent from the backwoods

[UncleJak]

Considering that the legal blade length limit is 4" I don't think about this at all.

4" blade will do a heck of a lot of damage.



sent from the backwoods

Worst knife wounds I ever heard of were with a two inch case pocketknife

sent barefoot from the hills of Tennessee

[Oh Shoot]

Worst knife wounds I ever heard of were with a two inch case pocketknife

 

1.5" damage, watch the meat demo in second half.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xdkKNUUOMwU

 

- OS

Edited June 27, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[peejman]

Considering that the legal blade length limit is 4" I don't think about this at all.

 

The heart, lungs, liver, stomach, spinal cord and intestines are typically less than 2" from the outer surface (unless the person is very obese).

[E4 No More]

Have you ever disseted a human? I have. The sternum and ribcage block most of the heart where it is closest to the surface. Spinal cord is protected by a lot of bone too. You'd be pretty luucky to get to it - although you could get there eventually. The others you'd be waiting for them to bleed to death. You could reach the carotid the easiest, but that's a hard one to get to on someone determined to keep you away.

 

No thanks; I'll stick to guns.

[mikegideon]

Have you ever disseted a human? I have. The sternum and ribcage block most of the heart where it is closest to the surface. Spinal cord is protected by a lot of bone too. You'd be pretty luucky to get to it - although you could get there eventually. The others you'd be waiting for them to bleed to death. You could reach the carotid the easiest, but that's a hard one to get to on someone determined to keep you away.

 

No thanks; I'll stick to guns.

 

I think it's safe to say that you'll have to change clothes when you're done. Same rules as with a gun... you're not gonna stop them dead in their tracks unless you defeat the central nervous system. So, lots of blood is required. You can get to the vitals by going between the ribs, and assume it just takes multiple attempts to get there.

 

I'm with you. A gun is much better. With that said, if all I have is a knife, I'll do my best to drain the guy that's trying to kill me.

[Guest Emtdaddy1980]

Considering that the legal blade length limit is 4" I don't think about this at all.

How many inches below the surface is YOUR carotid artery? I've worked more than one fatality that were the result of a sub 4" blade and I've also been present for a few autopsies. Unless you're trying to get stabby with someone of sumo proportions a large blade is not really necessary. Saying you don't think of a smaller blade as a threat is kind of like saying that you dismiss anything less than a .454 casull. Weather or not its a "one slice stop" is irrelevant when you're talking about preparing for the encounter. Edited June 27, 2013 by Emtdaddy1980

[Will Carry]

    No. I'm too big, too old, too slow and have had no training in knife fighting.  I recon a real knife fighter would make short work of me. 

[E4 No More]

How many inches below the surface is YOUR carotid artery? I've worked more than one fatality that were the result of a sub 4" blade and I've also been present for a few autopsies. Unless you're trying to get stabby with someone of sumo proportions a large blade is not really necessary. Saying you don't think of a smaller blade as a threat is kind of like saying that you dismiss anything less than a .454 casull. Weather or not its a "one slice stop" is irrelevant when you're talking about preparing for the encounter.

See my second post above.

[Guest Emtdaddy1980]

I read it before I wrote mine, I'm just not following your logic. Most of your vital organs are within 2 inches of the surface unless its an abnormally large individual. Yes the heart is well protected by the sternum, but an upward frontal thrust could easily penetrate underneath the xyphoid process and reach the right ventricle. The spinal cord is encased in bone but a good thrust between the xyphoid process and the navel with just a 2"-3" blade could easily open up the inferior vena cava. What about the liver or the kidneys? Blood loss from a puncturing or lacerating injury to any of those organs would be very rapid and could result in hemorragic shock and death within minutes.

[peejman]

While I've never dissected a human, I've seen what my kitchen knives do to various cattle type critters, and then I'm not trying very hard.  A puncture/stabbing wound with a decent knife could easily penetrate bones or go between ribs or vertebra.  2" in depth is more than enough to ruin your day.  In reality, that may not happen very often but clearly its possible. 

[E4 No More]

I read it before I wrote mine, I'm just not following your logic. Most of your vital organs are within 2 inches of the surface unless its an abnormally large individual. Yes the heart is well protected by the sternum, but an upward frontal thrust could easily penetrate underneath the xyphoid process and reach the right ventricle. The spinal cord is encased in bone but a good thrust between the xyphoid process and the navel with just a 2"-3" blade could easily open up the inferior vena cava. What about the liver or the kidneys? Blood loss from a puncturing or lacerating injury to any of those organs would be very rapid and could result in hemorragic shock and death within minutes.

Good luck with that.

[tnhawk]

I need to start carrying a backup gun, not a knife.

[Guest Emtdaddy1980]

I carry a good knife for the places that I can't carry a gun, or to help me hang onto my gun if someone decides to try to grab it. They tend to frown on carrying a firearm on the ambulance, but the fixed blade that I CC is legal in TN and within the size limit for the company guidelines. Sometimes we have to make compromises and work with what we can given the situation. I'm just not understanding SWJewelTN dismissing a sub 4" blade as not being a threat when I've seen many people in bags as a result of one.

[Raoul]

I once saw a small fella take a medium sized pocket knife to another big fella. No stabbing involved, just a constant slashing movement. Unbelievable amount of blood. That big old boy was begging the little fella to stop.

Funny thing was, the big guy really wasn't hurt that bad.

[Jamie Jackson]

Good point EMTdaddy.

 

I think a few folks may think Mr. Cestari /Kasper and some quality instructors that teach knife work are advocating the use of a knife over a gun.

My take is that they teach the dynamics and techniques of knife fighting so that we can develop a better understanding of how suddenly vicious & brutal a knife attack will be.Then by having a better understanding of those mechanics/dynamics we can develop better defensive skills against such an attack.

As has been mentioned, we are generally behind the curve when such an attack begins, and frequently empty hand defensive skills must be first deployed first in order to even have the opportunity to access and employ a firearm.

The best made plans can go to hell in a handbasket when the balloon goes up.

:2cents:

[Guest Emtdaddy1980]

^^^Exactly, I am not advocating a knife as a superior weapon to a firearm. But my point was that it was unwise to dismiss a smaller blade when thinking in a self defense mindset, whether it be in the context of a secondary weapon for yourself OR as a possible threat against you. Just like we wouldn't dismiss a BG with a .22 because he's aiming something at us that's not up to our personal standard for EDC, I'm not about to dismiss someone with a 2" folder or even a 1" boxcutter as a non-threat. Being dead from a small blade would suck just as much as being dead from a .22, and either outcome is completely plausible and occurs many times over daily.

[JAB]

The heart, lungs, liver, stomach, spinal cord and intestines are typically less than 2" from the outer surface (unless the person is very obese).

 

And yet people dismiss a caliber and/or ammo type if it doesn't reach the 'magical' 12 inches of penetration.  While at the same time some of them (not directed at you, peejman, just in general) would consider a sub-4 inch blade to be a good choice for a backup self defense weapon.

 

Getting cut friggin' hurts.  I have had a pocket knife close on one of my knuckles.  The wound bled like a stuck pig and needed three stitches (I could see the bone.)  Heck, getting nicked while shaving doesn't exactly feel good.  I don't want to think about how badly getting cut multiple times 'for real', even with a small blade, would hurt.

 

At the same time, I think I understand where SWJewellTN is coming from.  As a person who is not skilled, practiced or trained in knife fighting, I don't see my chances of defending myself with a knife as being all that great, period, but certainly not with a 'short' bladed knife.

Edited July 1, 2013 by JAB