Weed, fights and guns: Trayvon Martin’s text messages released

[RichardR]

I fail to see how following someone acting suspicious is "starting a confrontation" one which the followee' is justified in assaulting the follower, for comitting the act of following.

Granted people don't like to be followed, but there are literally dozens of benign reasons one person might follow another.

In this particular case a volunteer neighborhood watchman became suspicious of a person (unknown to him as being a resident), dressed in dark clothing, acting as if they were on drugs, sneaking around his neighborhood afterdark which had experienced a recent rash of break-ins & burglaries, this is IMHO what should happen in every neighborhood.

Trayvon's recent history included being caught at school with burglary tools & a small pirate's horde of presumably stolen womens jewelry, he could have very well had been the one responsible for the recent rash of break-ins in Zimmerman's neighborhood.

In fact I'd be very interested in examining the date of which Trayvon moved into the area & the date that the break-ins began.

[DaveS]

even if GZ had started a fight, the instant the fight escalated to that point, the self defense statute would have kicked in.

 

 How so JayC? At least un-ignore me to answer this.

 

DS

[mikegideon]

I don't know that this is necessarily true as I do not know Florida law.  However, by TN law (in simplified language) you can't be a party to starting a confrontation and then be legally justified in the use of deadly force when that confrontation is not going your way.  It is my opinion (and I acknowledge that this is all it is) that by following/stalking Martin - even after Martin attempted to evade him - Zimmerman participated in starting the confrontation.  Basically, he was acting like a swinging dick then shot Martin when his (Zimmerman's) ass couldn't back up his mouth, so to speak.

 

I do not believe that Martin was an 'angel' and, yes, he probably could have done more to avoid the confrontation that ended with his death.  That said, I can't help but think what I would do if I were walking around in a neighborhood where I had every right to be (heck, this was apparently the neighborhood where Martin was living at the time) and some dude I didn't know started following me and possibly trying to 'question' me - some dude who is obviously not a cop.  As an adult with, hopefully, a bit better control of my temper than a teenager, I don't think I would stop and get into a fist fight.  Instead, I would call the cops, myself and tell them that some weird dude was following me and that he was starting to make me fear for my life.

 

Bottom line comes down to this:  If Zimmerman had not been following Martin - and I have seen no claims that Martin had actually done anything to justify Zimmerman following him - then the confrontation would never have happened.  Therefore, to my mind, the root cause of the entire fiasco was Zimmerman following Martin without reason and (apparently) attempting to stop and question Martin despite having no authority to do so.  Therefore, it was Zimmerman who is responsible for everything that followed.  Honestly, I believe that he makes responsible gun owners and carriers look bad.

 

You can't whip somebody's ass for following you. That is assault, also known as a crime.

[RobertNashville]

I fail to see how following someone acting suspicious is "starting a confrontation" one which the followee' is justified in assaulting the follower, for comitting the act of following.

Granted people don't like to be followed, but there are literally dozens of benign reasons one person might follow another.

In this particular case a volunteer neighborhood watchman became suspicious of a person (unknown to him as being a resident), dressed in dark clothing, acting as if they were on drugs, sneaking around his neighborhood afterdark which had experienced a recent rash of break-ins & burglaries, this is IMHO what should happen in every neighborhood.

Trayvon's recent history included being caught at school with burglary tools & a small pirate's horde of presumably stolen womens jewelry, he could have very well had been the one responsible for the recent rash of break-ins in Zimmerman's neighborhood.

In fact I'd be very interested in examining the date of which Trayvon moved into the area & the date that the break-ins began.

You don't see how because it isn't "starting a confrontation" nor does it justify Marti's violent attack.

 

Like you, the original DA had the figured out...the DA the state went shopping for is going to find it out the hard way I think (and after spending a large amount of the state's tax revenue).

[JayC]

No offense, but there is so much case law you should know better...  The ONE exception to that rule is when you get involved in a fight and the other person escalates the fight by using force that could cause serious bodily injury or death then self defense can come back on the table.

 

I'd suggest you re-read 39-11-611e1 + e2

 

A perfect example of this is if you consent to a fist fight, and while you're down on the ground and the person winning goes and gets a baseball bat and attempts to attack you with it...  You're allowed to use deadly force even though you consented to a fist fight.

 

But again, I contend GZ never committed a crime, never consented to a fist fight, and therefore the stand your ground law was clearly in effect.

 

Negative. If you start a fight and end it with your pistol you will go to jail. Self defense goes out the window if you caused the events. There is so much precedent on this I refuse to believe that you don't know that.

 

[DaveS]

Negative. If you start a fight and end it with your pistol you will go to jail. Self defense goes out the window if you caused the events. There is so much precedent on this I refuse to believe that you don't know that.

If anyone carries a handgun....they better know this!!! 

 

DaveS

[RichardR]

How so JayC? At least un-ignore me to answer this.

DS

As a former LEO you should be familiar with the use of force continuum.

[TMF]

True, but Zimmerman didn't start a fight, so such a law shouldnhabe no bearing on this case.

You were there?

[RobertNashville]

You were there?

I don't believe anyone posting on this forum or in this thread was there but if you have actual evidence that shows Zimmerman started the fight I'm sure we would all be happy to see it.

[TMF]

I don't believe anyone posting on this forum or in this thread was there but if you have actual evidence that shows Zimmerman started the fight I'm sure we would all be happy to see it.

I have evidence that Zimmerman is not a reliable source of information. Taking his story at face value is not something most folks here would normally do considering his history of lying in a courtroom to a judge and being caught in the lie.

The point is, no one here has any actual "facts". We have evidence, statements but no facts.

[DaveS]

As a former LEO you should be familiar with the use of force continuum.

Exactly...AGAIN..I'M NOT ON TRIAL!!!!! ZMAN IS!!!! 

 

I know exactly what it is....do you?

 

Dave S

[npgunner]

[quote data-cid='988509' name='TMF' timestamp='1372103635' post='988509'][quote data-cid='988502' name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1372103079']

The point is, no one here has any actual "facts". We have evidence, statements but no facts. [/quote]

Sir on this issue you are wrong ...

I've been allowed to review top secret NSA and FBI drone footage of the attack that evening and can tell you exactly what happened ... but reading everyone's conjecture and opinions is much more entertaining than the truth so I'll keep it to myself.

[DaveS]

ata-cid='988509' name='TMF' timestamp='1372103635' post='988509']

Sir on this issue you are wrong ...

I've been allowed to review top secret NSA and FBI drone footage of the attack that evening and can tell you exactly what happened ... but reading everyone's conjecture and opinions is much more entertaining than the truth so I'll keep it to myself.

That's funny stuff right there....is that all? I like that! 

 

Dave S

[TripleDigitRide]

True, but Zimmerman didn't start a fight, so such a law shouldnhabe no bearing on this case.

You were there?

I don't need to be there. Zimmerman said he didn't start the fight, and there is no evidence to prove otherwise. I understand some of you don't believe anything he says, but there have been countless real criminals go free because there isn't enough evidence to prove the State's case. This should be one of them.

If anyone is patiently waiting for some bombshell to be dropped during the trial, I'm afraid you're wasting your time. For the most part, we already know the meat and taters ofbthe case.

[DaveS]

I don't need to be there. Zimmerman said he didn't start the fight, and there is no evidence to prove otherwise. I understand some of you don't believe anything he says, but there have been countless real criminals go free because there isn't enough evidence to prove the State's case. This should be one of them.

If anyone is patiently waiting for some bombshell to be dropped during the trial, I'm afraid you're wasting your time. For the most part, we already know the meat and taters ofbthe case.

I beleive very little he says. He's been caught in too many lies now. I know, I know...prove it.... 

 

DiaS

[TripleDigitRide]

I don't need to be there. Zimmerman said he didn't start the fight, and there is no evidence to prove otherwise. I understand some of you don't believe anything he says, but there have been countless real criminals go free because there isn't enough evidence to prove the State's case. This should be one of them.


If anyone is patiently waiting for some bombshell to be dropped during the trial, I'm afraid you're wasting your time. For the most part, we already know the meat and taters ofbthe case.

I beleive very little he says. He's been caught in too many lies now. I know, I know...prove it....

DiaS

All of us have lied more than once. Does that make us guilty of murder?

[DaveS]

All of us have lied more than once. Does that make us guilty of murder?

No sir; but neither you nor I are on trial right now. Not a very good example Sir! 

 

Dave S

[RichardR]

I beleive very little he says. He's been caught in too many lies now. I know, I know...prove it....

DiaS

Not according to the lie-detector.

[TMF]

I don't need to be there. Zimmerman said he didn't start the fight, and there is no evidence to prove otherwise. I understand some of you don't believe anything he says, but there have been countless real criminals go free because there isn't enough evidence to prove the State's case. This should be one of them.

I think I've said before that my opinion and the court of law are two separate things. I don't know why we can't get past that.

[DaveS]

I think I've said before that my opinion and the court of law are two separate things. I don't know why we can't get past that.

Exactly.... 

This is all my opinion!

Except Zman's written statements and his video....that's a joke!

 

Dave S

[TripleDigitRide]

All of us have lied more than once. Does that make us guilty of murder?

No sir; but neither you nor I are on trial right now. Not a very good example Sir!

Dave S

But you never know if or when it could happen. If it were to happen, you can bet they'd dig up and publicize every ounce of dirty laundry we have.

[TripleDigitRide]

I don't need to be there. Zimmerman said he didn't start the fight, and there is no evidence to prove otherwise. I understand some of you don't believe anything he says, but there have been countless real criminals go free because there isn't enough evidence to prove the State's case. This should be one of them.

I think I've said before that my opinion and the court of law are two separate things. I don't know why we can't get past that.

Because some of us are trying to focus on the evidence while discussing this COURT case. Others insist on discussing their feelings and what they would or wouldn't have done in the situation.

At this point, I am doing my best to put myself in the shoes of the jury. The jury is told to base their decisions on the law and evidence presented to them. That's exactly what I'd like them to do if I were in Zimmerman's position.

As long as you continue to push opinion of guilt based on feelings, I'm going to continue to push my opinion based on evidence and the law.

[DaveS]

But you never know if or when it could happen. If it were to happen, you can bet they'd dig up and publicize every ounce of dirty laundry we have.

Agree, you are right... 

 

Dave S

[jgradyc]

Ok, I'll bite...  First lets watch the RAW video from the police interview of George Zimmerman with the Police Department at the site of the shooting:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55l2Dj6AeFY

 

At 3:00 minutes into this video, Zimmerman references a person, coming out of their home and him yelling help me help me to that person.

 

That person is witness #6 "John", and this is from his sworn statement to the police shortly after the shooting:

 

 

So you have a statement from an eyewitness who Zimmerman didn't know, nor did Zimmerman know about the contents of witness #6's statement, yet his video statements to the police match the eye witness's statement almost exactly. 

 

Combine that will the "help 911 call" which we've all heard...  Witness #6 and Zimmerman both separately claim that it was Zimmerman yelling for help... and in my opinion those screams are of somebody who is clearly in fear...  they seem desperate to me... and just the possibility that those screams come from Zimmerman gives me reasonable doubt as to the murder charges.

Zimmerman seems totally believable in that video, with the exception of how he described drawing the weapon. There, he seems to hedge a bit. To me, that makes his prior description even more believable. From a legal perspective, it doesn't matter at this point whether he drew and shot or TM was going for his weapon and he drew and shot. Self defense either way.

 

Add to this that the help 911 call wasn't released until days later. GZ didn't know it would become part of the case, yet he describes it just as it happens on the help 991 call.

 

Reasonable doubt. Yes.

 

I suspect the big defense prosecution surprise will be girl on the phone with TM before the incident. Don't be surprised if she "remembers" something that she left out in her statement to the police... something that implicates GZ.  Then, she gets invited to The View and gets a book deal.

Edited June 24, 2013 by jgradyc

[DaveTN]

All of us have lied more than once. Does that make us guilty of murder?

Have you perjured yourself in a courtroom under oath? He has, and I doubt if his attorney’s will put him on the stand for that reason. He has zero credibility. Does it make him guilty of murder? No, but If they suspect him of being a liar; they have to throw out everything he says.