Weed, fights and guns: Trayvon Martin’s text messages released

[DaveS]

If you are not doing anything wrong you would care less if someone was keeping an eye on you. I have been in retail stores and someone over the intercom says "security scan section whatever" we'll I could care less because I am not stealing anything, but the shoplifter will respond much differently. Those doing something wrong tend to get angry when they get caught. Follow me all you want, watch me all you want. I would only care if I was doing something I did not want others to see.

 

If you are not doing anything wrong you would care less if someone was keeping an eye on you. I have been in retail stores and someone over the intercom says "security scan section whatever" we'll I could care less because I am not stealing anything, but the shoplifter will respond much differently. Those doing something wrong tend to get angry when they get caught. Follow me all you want, watch me all you want. I would only care if I was doing something I did not want others to see.

If I'm doing nothing wrong, and you are following me in the dark, do you think it's wrong if I feel threatened and feel a need to defend myself?

 

Dave

[Guest nra37922]

If I'm doing nothing wrong, and you are following me in the dark, do you think it's wrong if I feel threatened and feel a need to defend myself?

 

Dave

I think that the smart move would be to walk to a lighted area like a small store or your home and call the police.  If you feel threatened than get away, NOT confront the person.

[TripleDigitRide]

Long day for the court. They went until 10:00 pm, then need to be back by 8:00 am. Things got heated. Tomorrow is going to be interesting.

[RobertNashville]

If I'm doing nothing wrong, and you are following me in the dark, do you think it's wrong if I feel threatened and feel a need to defend myself?

 

Dave

Last time I checked the rules, you have no right to "defend yourself" against feeling threatened especially when there are many other options such as "call 911 instead an idiot girlfriend" or "go home" instead of turning back and confronting the one who is making you feel threatened or maybe even don't smoke weed if it makes you feel paranoid.

[RobertNashville]

Kinda hard to beat someone's head against the grass, pavement or anything else if they are sitting inside a vehicle so, yeah, I think it is safe to say that if he had stayed in his vehicle then chances are that the altercation would not have happened.  Even if it had happened, there would certainly be no room to question Zimmerman's actions.  "Zimmerman shot Martin after Martin pulled Zimmerman from his vehicle and began beating him," is a whole lot more clear cut than, "Armed man shoots teen after getting out of his vehicle and following the teen on foot."

 

Now, if you want to talk ridiculous then we can talk ridiculous.  It is claimed that Martin went home and then came back.  I have also seen claims in this thread that Zimmerman was not following Martin but only got out of his vehicle to check the street signs.  Talk about ridiculous.  If that were true, it would mean that:

 

1. Zimmerman, as captain of a neighborhood watch in what sounds like a fairly small, gated community didn't know the names of the streets that he would have regularly patrolled?  Sounds fishy.

 

2. The house where Martin was staying was approximately 50 yards from where the attack happened.  So, in the time it took Zimmerman to exit his vehicle, look at a street sign and start back to his vehicle (which would take, what, five or ten seconds?) Martin had time to travel a total of 100 yards on foot, pausing to talk on his cell phone along the way?  Wow, someone should have gotten Trayvon onto a track team and on a path to the Olympics - or gave him a red costume with a yellow lightning bolt and a mask with wings.

 

But, yeah, we can at least agree that it would have been better if Zimmerman had stayed in his truck because then at least there wouldn't have been any doubt about his actions leading up to the shooting.  While I know that no one can know for sure, in that case I seriously doubt this would ever have gone to trial.  In fact, it probably wouldn't even have been on the national news for more than a day or two, if that.  Heck, there is a good chance it would have been a local news story for a week or so and then forgotten.

I'm not sure who you are trying to convince here?  If it's me you are never going to convince me that "staying in his truck" is some kind of miracle shield that would have stopped all the bad things that happened.

 

1. I'm part of my neighborhood watch...my neighborhood is probably smaller than the one in this case...and I don't know all the street names; why is that so hard to fathom?  If I were on the phone with 911 and needed to give them a street location because I saw something suspicious there is a damn good chance I'd have to find a street sign too.

 

2. As far as the 50 yard issue; what Martin did or didn't do is pure conjecture; it depends on what you believe (or want to believe)...Andrew did a very good analysis of this very issue on his blog including sat pictures, etc.. The only two people who know are Zimmerman and Martin so I guess you can believe what you want.

 

I mean, it's fine if you want to hang your hat on the "staying in the vehicle" thing but it's still all conjecture.

Edited July 10, 2013 by RobertNashville

[Erik88]

Most neighborhoods in Florida are fairly large. I think it would be difficult to find anyone who knows every street name. Even in a small neighborhood it would be difficult for myself to remember.

[Mike.357]

Zimmerman did nothing illegal by following Martin. 

 

All Martin had to do was go home.   Confronting Zimmerman was the problem, not Zimmerman following him.

 

I really wish I had been able to see the cross of the forensic pathologist.

[mikegideon]

 

1. I'm part of my neighborhood watch...my neighborhood is probably smaller than the one in this case...and I don't know all the street names; why is that so hard to fathom?  If I were on the phone with 911 and needed to give them a street location because I saw something suspicious there is a damn good chance I'd have to find a street sign too.

 

 

 

Well... I'm sure not gonna run around your neighborhood in a hoodie :).

[QuietDan]

Now living in much calmer Smyrna, but prior to moving back here actively worked neighborhood watch in San Antonio. They also had a curfew for youth under 21. Youth in dark hoodies late at night, especially wandering around aimlessly or off the sidewalk in people's yards, IS suspicious behaviour. We called the nonemergency number for the police all the time. If they were cutting through backyards, YES we would try to keep them in sight, if they attempted to engage or confront us, it would become a 911 call in a heartbeat, and we would certainly take steps to defend ourselves.

 

A youth in a dark hoodie after dark, with face covered, with lower observability because of the dark clothes, is very nearly "possession of burglary tools." The police in San Antonio looked very unfavorably on such conduct and would always come and check after a call.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Last time I checked the rules, you have no right to "defend yourself" against feeling threatened especially when there are many other options such as "call 911 instead an idiot girlfriend" or "go home" instead of turning back and confronting the one who is making you feel threatened or maybe even don't smoke weed if it makes you feel paranoid.

 

Trying to imagine "fish out of water" experiences in my own context, perhaps analogous to TM's-- Not the same things, and maybe places/names that make no sense, and maybe the places are more "civilized" now than last times I was there--

 

Ferinstance if I was out after dark in certain remote roads in Birchwood, Soddy Mountain, Suck Creek Mountain or the back side of Signal Mountain, and somebody started following me, then I would expect something a little more ominous than a friendly local neighborhood watch feller. Call me crazy or paranoid, but sometimes people don't come back from some parts of the county.

 

If I happened to be out walking after dark a few blocks away from my house in little boring podunk Red Bank and some dude starts following me, I wouldn't exactly feel warm and fuzzy enough to strike up a conversation with the fella. There are creeps everywhere and I can walk on a public street wherever I like, just like any tax payer.

 

TM was a "fish out of water" at the apartment complex, and I wouldn't blame him for getting creeped out in a similar fashion, regardless whether that sounds silly paranoid unreasonable to Robert.

[mikegideon]

Trying to imagine "fish out of water" experiences in my own context, perhaps analogous to TM's-- Not the same things, and maybe places/names that make no sense, and maybe the places are more "civilized" now than last times I was there--

 

Ferinstance if I was out after dark in certain remote roads in Birchwood, Soddy Mountain, Suck Creek Mountain or the back side of Signal Mountain, and somebody started following me, then I would expect something a little more ominous than a friendly local neighborhood watch feller. Call me crazy or paranoid, but sometimes people don't come back from some parts of the county.

 

If I happened to be out walking after dark a few blocks away from my house in little boring podunk Red Bank and some dude starts following me, I wouldn't exactly feel warm and fuzzy enough to strike up a conversation with the fella. There are creeps everywhere and I can walk on a public street wherever I like, just like any tax payer.

 

TM was a "fish out of water" at the apartment complex, and I wouldn't blame him for getting creeped out in a similar fashion, regardless whether that sounds silly paranoid unreasonable to Robert.

 

If you're creeped out, do you move away from safety, and toward what's creeping you out? Trayvon was on safe ground, and then went toward the conflict.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

If you're creeped out, do you move away from safety, and toward what's creeping you out? Trayvon was on safe ground, and then went toward the conflict.

 

Thanks Mike

 

That is a good point, but brings into question judgement, which is quite variable. I'd most likely run like a sissy girl, but that isn't always the highest-survival strategy. For one thing, it encourages aggressors to double-down, which must be "nipped in the bud" some time or t'other.

 

I can't recall intentionally doing thangs that I knew to be a bad idea, but many times did stuff which only seemed like a good idea at the time. Pays yer money and takes yer chances. Hindsight is 20/20.

 

I'm not a tush hog but one time got the butt kicked pretty good when I was working at the psychiatric hospital. They brought in this 40 something guy who was having his first psychotic breakdown and hadn't slept for many days. The voices were telling him that I meant to kill him, and so what he did seemed like a good idea at the time, from his point of view at the time. :)

[MattCary]

Things got interesting, indeed. The Judge walked out in the middle of West's argument. 

 

If you watch all the way to the end, you will note that West notes that he "can't continue at this pace much longer." Worn out counsel is grounds for reversal on appeal. 

 

Jump to about 6:30 to start the fireworks.

 

http://youtu.be/k1Zw-NjAz-I

 

 

[RobertNashville]

Trying to imagine "fish out of water" experiences in my own context, perhaps analogous to TM's-- Not the same things, and maybe places/names that make no sense, and maybe the places are more "civilized" now than last times I was there--

Ferinstance if I was out after dark in certain remote roads in Birchwood, Soddy Mountain, Suck Creek Mountain or the back side of Signal Mountain, and somebody started following me, then I would expect something a little more ominous than a friendly local neighborhood watch feller. Call me crazy or paranoid, but sometimes people don't come back from some parts of the county.

If I happened to be out walking after dark a few blocks away from my house in little boring podunk Red Bank and some dude starts following me, I wouldn't exactly feel warm and fuzzy enough to strike up a conversation with the fella. There are creeps everywhere and I can walk on a public street wherever I like, just like any tax payer.

TM was a "fish out of water" at the apartment complex, and I wouldn't blame him for getting creeped out in a similar fashion, regardless whether that sounds silly paranoid unreasonable to Robert.

Feeling "creaped out" or "feeling threatened" - what's the difference. Feelings aren't sufficient to justify starting a violent confrontation no matter how "out of water" the person feels.

Act like an idiot, especially when you have a multitude of choices that doesnt require a physical confrontation, and you can expect bad things to happen to you.

Trayvon acted like an idiot and won the powerball prize.

[DaveS]

Last time I checked the rules, you have no right to "defend yourself" against feeling threatened especially when there are many other options such as "call 911 instead an idiot girlfriend" or "go home" instead of turning back and confronting the one who is making you feel threatened or maybe even don't smoke weed if it makes you feel paranoid.

Does not the law allow me to Stand my Ground, and I have NO duty to retreat? Did I miss something with those laws? If my aggressor is gaining on me, one I'm not going to lead this guy to MY house, and two, if he is gaining on me and I can no longer outrun him, I know have no choice but to stand my ground.

 

I'm not an "Internet bad ass" as some of ya'll contend, but I wasn't raised to be a pu**y either! I'd rather exit the scene as quietly and as peacefully as possible, and when not possible, now it's time to take some action.

I don't believe for one minute that any of you would not defend yourself if need be!

 

Dave

[DaveS]

Most neighborhoods in Florida are fairly large. I think it would be difficult to find anyone who knows every street name. Even in a small neighborhood it would be difficult for myself to remember.

Zman's community has THREE streets. He lived there almost 4 years, and he didn't know the street names? Bull!!

 

Dave

[RobertNashville]

Zman's community has THREE streets. He lived there almost 4 years, and he didn't know the street names? Bull!!

 

Dave

I don't know if it's the same in FL as it is here but "three streets" here could mean 10 different street names depending on what 15' of road you are standing on - and was he just looking for a street name or trying to give a specific location to 911 (which entails more than just "I'm on "X" street).

Edited July 10, 2013 by RobertNashville

[RobertNashville]

Does not the law allow me to Stand my Ground, and I have NO duty to retreat? Did I miss something with those laws? If my aggressor is gaining on me, one I'm not going to lead this guy to MY house, and two, if he is gaining on me and I can no longer outrun him, I know have no choice but to stand my ground.

 

I'm not an "Internet bad ass" as some of ya'll contend, but I wasn't raised to be a pu**y either! I'd rather exit the scene as quietly and as peacefully as possible, and when not possible, now it's time to take some action.

I don't believe for one minute that any of you would not defend yourself if need be!

 

Dave

That's fine, Dave...if you think starting a violent confrontation because you "feel threatened" is legal in any state of the union, including TN, then you need to take a refresher course in basic law. You might also want to bone up on the law that is commonly (and not very appropriately) called "stand your ground" because I don't think it means what you think it means.

 

But go ahead if you want...to do what the thug-want-a-be did and start a violent attack on someone because you "feel threatened" (ore because he "disrespected me; there are still plenty of powerball awards to hand out to people that do that.

Edited July 10, 2013 by RobertNashville

[DaveS]

That's fine, Dave...if you think starting a violent confrontation because you "feel threatened" is legal in any state of the union, including TN, then you need to take a refresher course in basic law.

 

But go ahead if you want...to do what the thug-want-a-be did and start a violent attack on someone because you "feel threatened" (ore because he "disrespected me; there are still plenty of powerball awards to hand out to people that do that.

Robert, by no means do I want to do as the "thug-want-a-be" did. If I've exhausted all means to get away and I've failed to do so, then it's time to take some action. A good point was brought up earlier. Why didn't TM call 911 instead of staying on the phone with that twit he was talking to?

 

Dave

[RobertNashville]

Robert, by no means do I want to do as the "thug-want-a-be" did. If I've exhausted all means to get away and I've failed to do so, then it's time to take some action. A good point was brought up earlier. Why didn't TM call 911 instead of staying on the phone with that twit he was talking to?

 

Dave

Then why even bring up "feeling threatened" and "stand your ground" when as we know and you just acknowledged that the thug had multiple choices that would have avoided a confrontation.

Edited July 10, 2013 by RobertNashville

[DaveS]

That's fine, Dave...if you think starting a violent confrontation because you "feel threatened" is legal in any state of the union, including TN, then you need to take a refresher course in basic law. You might also want to bone up on the law that is commonly (and not very appropriately) called "stand your ground" because I don't think it means what you think it means.

 

But go ahead if you want...to do what the thug-want-a-be did and start a violent attack on someone because you "feel threatened" (ore because he "disrespected me; there are still plenty of powerball awards to hand out to people that do that.

What kind of "award" do you get if you don't defend yourself from an aggressor? All of us just as TM did, may not know who is chasing us and why? Seeing where TM was raised with all the street gangs there, what was he thinking when some hispanic dude jumps out of his truck and starts chasing him?

 

Dave

[DaveS]

Then why are you going on about "feeling threatened" and "standing your ground" when as we know and you just acknowledged that the thug had multiple choices that would have avoided a confrontation.

 

I say again, the thug took the idiot route and won the powerball prize.

 

Then why are you going on about "feeling threatened" and "standing your ground" when as we know and you just acknowledged that the thug had multiple choices that would have avoided a confrontation.

 

I say again, the thug took the idiot route and won the powerball prize.

Robert I'm basically saying that I'm not going to try to out run a younger person. I just am not capable of that anymore. I will defend myself. If you are chasing me around in the dark, you better damn well have a good reason for it, and better IDENTIFY your self at the earliest opportunity!

 

In other words, stay in your truck and leave me alone! I believe we all live by the same concepts.

 

What would have to happen Robert to get you to stop running and defend yourself?

 

Dave

[Joseg]

don't what you too are arguing over, trial should wrapped up in a few days and in a few weeks, everyone will be like TM/GZ who?  So no need to get your panties in a bunch.. 

 

 

[RobertNashville]

What kind of "award" do you get if you don't defend yourself from an aggressor? All of us just as TM did, may not know who is chasing us and why? Seeing where TM was raised with all the street gangs there, what was he thinking when some hispanic dude jumps out of his truck and starts chasing him?

 

Dave

Well first, we all know that this wasn't some "Hispanic dude", Zimmerman is a "white-Hispanic".

 

Also, the "white-Hispanic" didn't "jump out of his truck and start chasing" Martin"...I'm beginning to wonder if you've watched any of the testimony.  :shrug:

 

If you want to keep bring up disproved and/or completely unsupported assertions go ahead; it's still meaningless. :screwy:

 

The "aggressor" in this Zimmerman/Martin story was the THUG-want-a-be and he got exactly what he should have expected when he started attacking Zimmerman.

[RobertNashville]

Robert I'm basically saying that I'm not going to try to out run a younger person. I just am not capable of that anymore. I will defend myself. If you are chasing me around in the dark, you better damn well have a good reason for it, and better IDENTIFY your self at the earliest opportunity!

 

In other words, stay in your truck and leave me alone! I believe we all live by the same concepts.

 

What would have to happen Robert to get you to stop running and defend yourself?

 

Dave

Martin didn't "defend" himself; he attacked Zimmerman.

 

That's what the evidence shows and that's why Zimmerman isn't guilty of either Murder 2 or Manslaughter....he is simply a man that defended his life while trying to do something good for his community.

 

Of course, the Justice for Trayvon crowd will never believe that.