Snowden to Charged with Espionage

[DaveTN]

So was every, single individual who signed the Declaration of Independence.

Yes, they were. And if things hadn’t worked out the way they planned they would have been in prison or executed.
 

I'm not necessarily putting Snowden on the same level. However, when the government is betraying its own people then perhaps the only way to do the right thing for one's country and it's people is to act against that government.

I hate everything Obama stands is; I hate to even see his face. I think he is intentionally doing all the damage he can to our nation. But I won’t turn traitor and give classified documents to communist countries because of what he’s doing. I’m sure they are plenty of people in the NSA, CIA, etc. that hate Obama as much as most of us; but I doubt they start telling everything the know to the Russians and Chinese.

Does anyone think for one second Snowden will walk free? Of course he won’t he committed a crime against our country and will be made an example of. The communists will probably kill him when they are done with him and try to make it look like the U.S. ordered it. He’s not a whistleblower; he’s a traitor. If he was a whistleblower he would have went to a law firm and stood and fought.

No deep dark secrets will come out if he is put on trial; the government will claim national security for anything they don’t want to expose and he will go to prison.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

This isn't about Obama, but it is about the built in power structure and the people who benefit from it, while

using that power to take our freedom away. There is much more to this story than you or I know. Keep on

watching the network news. I'm sure they are telling the truth. :D

 

There is a place for secrecy when dealing with agents from foreign countries, but when your country keeps

so many secrets from it's citizens that may or may not have any reason to be kept, it is a perfect breeding

ground for tyranny and should have never been allowed.

 

Now, if you wish to consider how Obama is taking advantage of the laws his predecessor got passed, that's

another thing.

 

When you start to see Democrats and Republicans hugging and kissing, politically speaking, does that not

make you wonder?

[Guest RevScottie]

We Americans are a pretty self righteous bunch. If a Russian or Chinese national who had all kinds of secrets was seeking asylum in the US do you really think we would put them on a plane and send them back if we thought we could benefit from the information they

had?

[TripleDigitRide]

We Americans are a pretty self righteous bunch. If a Russian or Chinese national who had all kinds of secrets was seeking asylum in the US do you really think we would put them on a plane and send them back if we thought we could benefit from the information they
had?

Amen!

We are at least as shady as they are.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

If he was so much of a risk to our country's security, why wasn't he forbidden to travel without an okay by his

boss? It appears that the government is more concerned with keeping a foot on top of our necks than protecting

something that supposedly would be embarrassing if it got out. We have more of a failed government than a traitor.

 

All it takes to see that isn't Snowden, but just look at Congress and our Herr Leader. Weakest bunch of people who

love their own power so much, they don't even see the Constitution, except when wiping their collective asses with

it. That's the real embarrassment. John Kerry as anything in an administration is an embarrassment, along with

all the rest.

 

Our secrecy laws need to be revamped badly, and those entrusted to use those laws need to understand there

is something in that toilet paper they shred, each day, that guides their conduct.

[DaveTN]

We Americans are a pretty self righteous bunch. If a Russian or Chinese national who had all kinds of secrets was seeking asylum in the US do you really think we would put them on a plane and send them back if we thought we could benefit from the information they
had?

Self-Righteous? I don’t think I’m self-righteous. I would do whatever I could do to help someone wanting to defect from China or Russia and turn over classified info to us. And there would be people in his country saying he’s a traitor; and they would be right.

[Mike.357]

they should name High Schools after Snowden.  He is not a traitor.  

 

6.8 I enjoy your posts on this topic.

 

The .gov is pissed because he has dirt on them.   Bunch of scumbags they are.  Not a one is a patriot. They crap on our constitution and try to sell it as protecting us.  

Edited June 26, 2013 by Mike.357

[c.a.willard]

When this story first broke i very much considered snowden a patriot.  His decisions since then are leading me to believe otherwise.  Mainly releasing to china us intelligence gathering techniques used to monitor the chinese.  and telling a reporter that he took the job as a NSA contractor specifically to gain access to certain information.  This coupled with the countries that he is choosing to remain in is leading me more to the traitor side of the argument.

[Mike.357]

the dude is scared he will be killed.  A patriot might take a job knowing full well he can get dirt on politicians. Our gov't is full of people fucking us for profit's sake.

 

If he turns up dead nothing will convince me he was not murdered by those in power who are afraid of what he knows.

[c.a.willard]

But is a man a patriot if he sells/trades US intelligence secrets pertaining to foreign intelligence gathering for the ability to stay in a non extradition country.

[Oh Shoot]

But is a man a patriot if he sells/trades US intelligence secrets pertaining to foreign intelligence gathering for the ability to stay in a non extradition country.

 

We don't actually know what he has divulged, or even what he actually has with him on puter and hard drives, or how whatever it is may be encrypted, etc. And yes, there are public encryption schemes the NSA nor anyone else has been able to break, at least in the high bit iterations.

 

He has stated that others have copies of info to be released if he is killed and it's possible that all the sensitive info actually resides there.

 

In short, we just don't really know what he's released, if anything, what he may be willing to release, or what he may be umm, induced to release.

 

As far as his dealing with our "enemies" so far, well, it's not like he has much choice as long as he wants to stay out of US hands. Of course, if (and probably when) he ceases to be an asset for propaganda or information, he'll just be another bargaining chip for a swap, like many in the past.

 

I'm still rather on the fence about him myself, but clearly admire his stated mission, and just pure chutzpah if nothing else. Pretty much in same way I do the much creepier Assange. :)

 

- OS

Edited June 26, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[c.a.willard]

we do know that at a minimum he has released some details to china of NSA hacking of a prominent Chinese university known for its research and home to seven major Chinese networks.

 

That's foreign intelligence gathering against what many consider to be a credible threat to US policy.

 

I also assume that countries likely to harbor him will not do so without receiving something in return,  a chance to say a big F-U the US is not necessarily enough for the damage that harboring Snowden may do.  But who knows we piss enough people off that just the chance to screw with the U.S.  may be all the incentive they need. 

 

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/482084/20130623/nsa-snowden-china-hong-kong-tsinghua-pacnet.htm

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Protecting our interests are always most important, but any political party/parties using that own secrecy ability

against its own people needs to see sunshine because it has become something different than protecting our

shores from invasion. At that point it has become another tool to kill our own country. Just like NAZI Germany.

 

Our government crossed the Rubicon and Snowden made a decision that will cost him his freedom, if not his

life, but he exposed things we have suspected for a long time and changes are in order.

 

There are many things that need to be under the umbrella of national security, but he took the lid off and exposed

tyranny. I would much rather be living in the cold war era again, than this Orwellian one we've created.

 

There is a difference between protecting military secrets and this. The military is for protecting the country against

invasion and our interests, not spying on it's citizens. The government has taken it a step or two farther and would

eventually try to use the military, or other organization against it's citizens if these kinds of things are allowed to

continue.

 

I've been called a right winged extremist because I'm a conservative/ libertarian. When am I going to be called a

traitor? Right now the IRS is doing small amounts of tyranny, the EPA is going to start writing regulations against

coal use, which will raise the energy costs, judges legislating from the bench against the Constitution, our school

system being used to endoctrinate our kids to a particular political ideology and training them with the dumbing

down approach for education. Laws have been passed that make more and more of us criminals.

 

The trouble with secrecy is you never know what kind of secrets are being held, with this kind of crowd running

the country, for a long time. There used to be a sense of duty, but I fear the only ones with that sense are among

the sheep and their duty will eventually be replaced by something much more hideous if this is allowed to linger.

 

How far off will it be when you or I are called a traitor? The only ones I see, so far, are the ones in Washington, DC.

We were warned about this kind of thing, many times in the past.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Mike, I won't go as far as to say there aren't patriots in our government, because I know there are many, but things

like this put the good ones in a bad position and it becomes a numbers game real fast. Our country is first and

foremost made up by the people, or it wouldn't say "We the people". Polarization by the political parties causes

things like this to happen. It's been going on since the beginning of our country, just in smaller, incremental doses.

 

Now, it's become that big gorilla to the point we may not be able to easily push out the door. I pay my taxes, thank

the military for their service to our country, tried to be productive all my life, and I learn my government has become

paranoid enough to spy on me to increase and maintain power to be used against me? That's not good , at all. It's

evil, as a matter of fact. there are Garands that are still being held because a certain ideology doesn't think we should

have guns. We have a government that teaches altruism, yet maintains absolute power. Obamacare was the most

corrupt piece of legislation, yet the Supreme Court allows it to stand. We see things played out in front of us and

let it happen. When is it enough?

 

Just like Atlas Shrugged.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

we do know that at a minimum he has released some details to china of NSA hacking of a prominent Chinese university known for its research and home to seven major Chinese networks.

 

That's foreign intelligence gathering against what many consider to be a credible threat to US policy.

 

I also assume that countries likely to harbor him will not do so without receiving something in return,  a chance to say a big F-U the US is not necessarily enough for the damage that harboring Snowden may do.  But who knows we piss enough people off that just the chance to screw with the U.S.  may be all the incentive they need. 

 

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/482084/20130623/nsa-snowden-china-hong-kong-tsinghua-pacnet.htm

When the definition of patriotism blurs to the point of looking at everyone as a credible threat to make the definition

stick on a certain individual, and viewing what a paper says in an article, you have just been corrupted. Is that article

proof that he is a traitor, and is that article good enough to view that China is a credible threat to the US? I believe

China is a credible threat, but not by that article, and not from our government. Their economy will cause their threat

to come out of the ash heap of history and raise Hell with us, because they can't manage their own affairs.

 

China views us as a way to steal money through a continual trade surplus, in their favor. We buy trinkets, they build

their infrastructure and military with ill-gotten gains through violations of trade treaties. We allow that to happen. We

shouldn't be doing that. When Bush pushed free trade, he didn't push the idea of us having it, also. If he had, we would

be exporting things to China.

 

Many do consider information gathering a necessary evil, but when a wild animal is in a corner, what does he do for

survival? Do you automatically assume Snowden was a traitor because he said something that is freely available on

the internet? There must be many traitors in our midst. Actually, I can think of quite a few: they are those who wish to

dissolve the Constitution and become the banana republic we are turning into. Do you really think our sovereignty will

exist under that banana republic?

 

Until there is proof that he is a spy for a foreign entity, I can't help but see someone scared to death, because his life

is in danger wherever he goes. He isn't James Bond, so don't go putting him in that category, please. If this was a planned

espionage, it was picked by the most unlikely soldier in that war. this guy isn't Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, either.

 

If anyone questions my patriotism on this issue, please consider this before you make that judgement: pacifists and

constitutionalists have been confused,often, either with help from political ideologies or other tyrannical bad actors. I'm

one who loves the US Constitution. Make no mistake about that!

 

We know at a minimum that he probably said that university was being watched. We won't be told anything except

what someone wants us to hear.

Edited June 26, 2013 by 6.8 AR

[Mike.357]

the .gov acts on our behalf.  This is all well and good if honest people filled with integrity were the ones over seeing things.

 

The problem is those who make laws and decide what is best are dishonest and self serving.  All they care about is becoming wealthy and remaining in power.  Newly elected representatives go to Washington with the facade of changing things and looking out for us.  Soon enough the are sucked into the vacuum and become like the rest already there.

 

Very few deserve our trust.

 

Snowden is making a lot of people squirm and worry,  I doubt that those people are worrying about my well being and safety.  They worry how this will affect them and their ability to be self serving.

 

And sure there are some who have integrity, but not enough to change how the government operates.

[Guest nra37922]

Snowden, rightfully or wrongly, pulled back the curtain and exposed what the government is doing.  The sheep and those with blinders on are now faced with the awful truth that the government spies on THEM...  Cannot hide it now or poopoo the idea as being 'tin hat' material.  The question is how are 'We the People' going to deal with it....

[JAB]

I hate everything Obama stands is; I hate to even see his face. I think he is intentionally doing all the damage he can to our nation. But I won’t turn traitor and give classified documents to communist countries because of what he’s doing. I’m sure they are plenty of people in the NSA, CIA, etc. that hate Obama as much as most of us; but I doubt they start telling everything the know to the Russians and Chinese.

 

You want to talk about traitors?  I say that any government official who would authorize such wide-ranging spying on the American people - in violation of the spirit of the Constitution they are supposed to be upholding - is a traitor.  Further, any member of the American intelligence community who would request or even knowingly participate in such spying is a traitor - from the heads of the CIA and NSA right down to field agents or tech agents who are doing the actual information gathering.  Yep, every, single one of them is a traitor.  The person who exposes the actions of such traitors is not, himself, a traitor and for the real traitors to try and portray him as such is hypocritical in the extreme.

Edited June 26, 2013 by JAB

[c.a.willard]

I agree that the NSA's actions in gathering the type of information i the way they did and targeting of U.S. citizens is a complete disregard to the constitution and is very well within the bounds of tyranny.  I also agree that for whatever reasons he did it Snowden allowed for a wake up call for the American people.  

 

What i am trying to reconcile for myself are his actions that i see as very much patriotic and his demonstrated strong belief in our constitution vs those actions that definitely meet the criteria for espionage.

 

I guess my question for myself is can a person be both a traitor and a patriot?  

[DaveTN]

I guess my question for myself is can a person be both a traitor and a patriot?

Absolutely not. You can be a whistleblower and a Patriot; but not a traitor and a Patriot. There are other things Snowden could have done without giving communist countries sensitive information, or information they would use to do Americans harm.

He switched sides, and for that he will go to prison if he is captured before one of those others countries kill him.

Did any of us need Snowden to tell us we are being watched or monitored by the government? Of course not. Will turning over technology information to other countries help change that? Of course not.

What about the next NSA, CIA, FBI agent that’s thinks the information he has is something the American people need to know?

You could never get a jury to acquit this guy. Hopefully 12 Americans can’t make it through the jury selection process that will say “yes, he is a traitor; but we are going to let him go.” You might get a hung jury, but they will continue to try him until they have a conviction.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I agree that the NSA's actions in gathering the type of information i the way they did and targeting of U.S. citizens is a complete disregard to the constitution and is very well within the bounds of tyranny.  I also agree that for whatever reasons he did it Snowden allowed for a wake up call for the American people.  

 

What i am trying to reconcile for myself are his actions that i see as very much patriotic and his demonstrated strong belief in our constitution vs those actions that definitely meet the criteria for espionage.

 

I guess my question for myself is can a person be both a traitor and a patriot?  

Sure they can. The way the laws are rigged, nowadays, anyone who comes forward is going to have to have big

balls and be ready to pay a huge sacrifice, and know their life has just ended. But it only depends on perspective

and what the act displays. There are just and unjust laws, but laws only restrict someone from a particular action.

What about those who are in positions of power in our government who are unaccountable to many laws?

 

That idiot Al Gore has a lot of information that you or I have no access to, yet he has made millions off of it. He gave

information about  missile technology to the Chinese government. Did he go to jail? He gave that technology for

political contributions, I'm almost sure, and it still makes him a traitor. There are many other examples other than old

Fat Albert.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Absolutely not. You can be a whistleblower and a Patriot; but not a traitor and a Patriot. There are other things Snowden could have done without giving communist countries sensitive information, or information they would use to do Americans harm.

He switched sides, and for that he will go to prison if he is captured before one of those others countries kill him.

Did any of us need Snowden to tell us we are being watched or monitored by the government? Of course not. Will turning over technology information to other countries help change that? Of course not.

What about the next NSA, CIA, FBI agent that’s thinks the information he has is something the American people need to know?

You could never get a jury to acquit this guy. Hopefully 12 Americans can’t make it through the jury selection process that will say “yes, he is a traitor; but we are going to let him go.” You might get a hung jury, but they will continue to try him until they have a conviction.

You've already convicted him. Go shoot him. You don't have any factual information that he gave any secrets to a foreign agent, other than what a few British papers claim. For all you know, he could have told them anything. I imagine it will be one of our agents who will kill him.

 

We already assumed the government was spying on us, yes, but the cat got let out of the bag with this situation.  Nice rationalization, though.

 

Maybe the CIA, NSA, FBI had better do their constitutional duty and live up to their oath before they go and let us

find out again.

Edited June 27, 2013 by 6.8 AR

[TripleDigitRide]

I'm a dumbass truck driver, and I knew the US was monitoring our every move and hacking into foreign systems. I don't think Snowden has dropped and bombshells that weren't already common knowledge, whether they've admitted it or not.

I never understood how, with a straight face, the .gov could ever condemn any foreign government for hacking into our systems, knowing damn well we have been doing the same thing to them.

[bajabuc]

to comment on either side of this is just plain politics....politics....and more politics.  The US of A got caught lying...they're still lying and will continue to lie because the sheeple demand it.  This is no better than Hitler lying to the German people...and they ate it like candy.

Edited June 27, 2013 by bajabuc

[Wyldk2]

The government did what most of us suspected of it doing and it was proven by Snowden when he blew the whistle on them. He may be a traitor in the eyes of those in government but Obama, Pelosi, Feinstien, Cuomo and most of those votong or striving for more gun control are traitors in us gun owner's eyes. The federal government does what it thinks is best for us, whether we like it or not.

 

Society has been brainwashed into thinking Snowden is a traitor. But if you knew your government was doing something wrong and you had the evidence to prove it, would you?  Most wouldn't, but if you have nothing else to lose, you might.