ar15. 223 reloads not going very well.

[vujade]

Hello forum,

 

I'm going to try to be as specific as possible and hope that you can lead me in the right direction to solve this. 

 

I'm reloading for my AR.  1/9 twist, standard m4 profile barrel, nothing special.  This is with a 50yard/200 yard zero shooting at 50 yards.  Front part of rifle benched and using iron sights and/or an Eotech.

 

It's eaten about 40 rounds of Federal (black box from Walmart), 40 rounds of Independence 5.56 and 10 Tula ammo.  No issues from my recollection.

 

I've since loaded about 300 rounds for it.   These are the loads I've made for it:  (while I have different brass, my group 5 shot groups with the same brass headstamps). I give it a failure strong crimp.  I basically made some dummy rounds with the OAL and cycled them in the gun and applied different crimps until the bullet barely or didn't move as it's pushed hard into the chamber.  OAL = 2.240-2.250.   Primers are CCI.

 

 

(I started with these)

55gr Hornady FMJ (bottom part has exposed lead).with cannalure + Federal or Hornady or Israeli brass.  + 23 to 26 grains of WC 844 (military surplus; equivalent to H335).

 

62 grain pulled "green tips" with cannalure + 23-26 grains of WC844

 

50 grain Hornady Amax + 24-25 grains of WC844

 

(I made several dozen of these just lately)

55 grain Hornady "Varmint" with cannalure + 24.3 grains of WC844

 

52 grain Hornady " Match HP + 24.3 grains of WC844

 

Accuracy seems to be the best right at 24.1-24.5 grains so I settled on 24.3 grains for all my bullet choices.  The 55 grain FMJ gives me about 1 inch groups at 50 yards.  the 62 grains slightly higher.  The different better quality bullets are all less than an inch pretty easily (I'm sure they can be better if I had a scope or better eyes.)  Half an inch if I do my part.  Shooting with just a sling in the prone position, I can maintain groups into a head size target at 200 yards pretty easily (love that 50/200 zero).

 

No chronograph (I shot it) so I can't tell the velocity/SD at the moment.

 

Here are my questions:

 

1. I load the magazines (Isreali e-Lancer? from Mako group) with 5 rounds for each group.  Every 2 or 3 shot groups will have the last round extract but instead of flying out, it just sits there on top of the magazine, inside the gun.  Once I drop the magazine, the case of course falls down but why it is not kicking out that brass like the others?

 

2. All rounds seem to have a 'lazy' extraction.  They just kind off plop out without much force (unlike the factory rounds).  Am I under charging them?

 

3. the 50 grain "match" HP groups well like the rest of them BUT I only got to shoot 1 group.  The rounds kept jamming.  The round attempts to feed but doesn't go in all the way.  I can see that the bolt isn't all the way forward.  I use the Forward Assist but nothing happens.  I also cannot pull the charging handle and extract the round.  They are just stuck in there.  This happened 2 times out of only 8 rounds I fired.  So i stopped shooting those.  We had to use a rubber mallet to push the charging handle back to remove the round. 

 

Inspection of the round shows a few curved scratches on the bullet tip?  Does that mean my rounds are too long and the lands are scratching the bullet?  Shall I back the round a bit?  (the others use the same OAL (except for the Varmint rounds which I load to the cannalure and are much shorter than the others (they feed/work fine; OAL is closer to 2.20)

 

Any suggestions for the above?  What are some things I can check?

 

Thank you,

 

 

 

[vujade]

Here is a complimentary gun pic of a friend of a friend of a friend shooting my AR. 

 

[gregintenn]

Do you get good feeding and ejection at 25-25.5 grains of powder with the 55 grain bullets?

 

Your OAL should be correct. Are you full length resizing the cases?

 

To reach the same pressure levels, you'll need a lower powder charge with the heavier bullet, and a higher charge with the lighter bullets. I'm no AR expert, but I have found that in general, semi autos work best at a certain pressure level, and that is usually found at the upper end of the load data.

Edited June 8, 2013 by gregintenn

[Dolomite_supafly]

Sounds like you are not getting enough velocity and pressures to cycle the gun.

 

For #3 the cases are not sized all the way. If they were once fired military you might need to get a small base sizing die because the 5.56 fired through machine guns can swell so much standard dies can't fix it. If these are the same cases as all the rest then you need to seat the bullet a bit deeper because it is likely jamming the bullet into the lands before locking up.

 

You need to invest in a chronograph. It will save you that much in trial and error between time and components

Edited June 8, 2013 by Dolomite_supafly

[Jonnin]

yes, it sounds like the bullets are a hair long and hitting the rifling early which will jam up.  This could be from using a fatter bullet at the same length, in some cases (fatter at the nose sooner, so a more pointy bullet might miss the rifling and the fatter one catch it?)

 

The others sound like light load problems, need more oomph to throw them out and cycle properly. 

 

The last round not popping out  --- before trying to diagnose it, try increased load power.  It may clear up. 

 

Had you shot any steel in the mix?

[Troutburger]

I've had no problems with 24.5 gr wc844 and 62gr green tips. Through a couple hundred rounds.

[ToysRUs]

No way would I develop loads without a chrono to tell me what is going on and a case gauge to tell me is the sizing/trim length is correct.

Buy both of them.

Edited June 14, 2013 by ToysRUs

[leroy]

vu:  I'm like the others.  I would up the powder charge and use small base dies to resize the brass.  I've shot lots of rounds thru a 223 bolt gun with a 1 in 12 twist with 52 to 55 grain bullets and 26 grains of H335.  No problems at all with great accuracy.  Greg is right in that semiautos tend to like the ballistics of whatever factory round they are designed for (...semiauto pistols as well...).  It's an impulse-pressure-time thing that cycles the action per the original design and makes everything work together.  I always take a look at the actual ballistics from factory rounds and look to the reloading tables to get close with the semiautos.  Take a look at the load tables for the AR in the Serria Loading Manual.

If ya dont have one; you can probably Google and find them. They will give ya some guidance in your quest for the "right" load.

 

Good luck.

leroy

PS -- The comments about a chronograph are good advice too.  Take a look at a Crony. They are good and they are very inexpensive.

Edited June 8, 2013 by leroy

[vujade]

Thanks for the helpful advise.

 

I have a chrony but it stopped working after I shot it by accident.  I know, i need to save up and buy one again.

 

I'm going to do some measuring on the bullets - I think you're right, I suspect that the bullet is slightly fatter sooner.  If that's the case or in any case, I'll move the bullet back a bit more.

 

I am full length sizing the cases but probably minimally; (I trim the cases also.)  I basically turn the dies and keep trying them on the case until the primer pops out.  The cases are 223, not 5.56 - I going to turn the die a little bit deeper though - that should 'size them even more'... effectively pushing the shoulder back more.

 

(nope, have't shoot steel on the mix)

 

I'll bump up my charge to 24.5 instead of 24.1 and 24.3

 

(No pressure signs up until 26 grains when I was load testing).

[vujade]

I'm not sure if it helps - my cases eject at about the 1-2 o'clock position. 

 

If you look at the picture, the camera captured the flying case (with a bit a smoke still coming out of the case).

[Dolomite_supafly]

Thanks for the helpful advise.

 

I have a chrony but it stopped working after I shot it by accident.  I know, i need to save up and buy one again.

 

I'm going to do some measuring on the bullets - I think you're right, I suspect that the bullet is slightly fatter sooner.  If that's the case or in any case, I'll move the bullet back a bit more.

 

I am full length sizing the cases but probably minimally; (I trim the cases also.)  I basically turn the dies and keep trying them on the case until the primer pops out.  The cases are 223, not 5.56 - I going to turn the die a little bit deeper though - that should 'size them even more'... effectively pushing the shoulder back more.

 

(nope, have't shoot steel on the mix)

 

I'll bump up my charge to 24.5 instead of 24.1 and 24.3

 

(No pressure signs up until 26 grains when I was load testing).

 

There is your problem!!! The shell holder MUST touch the sizing die. If not you are not completely sizing the case. If you are using the same method with your other calibers that is why you are probably having issues there as well.

 

When setting up the sizing dies I put the handle all the way down. Then I screw the sizing die in until the handle moves up about a 1/2".

 

5.56 and 223 are identical when it comes to size. The only difference is in the chamber and the pressures the loaded rounds are.

 

 

Here is the rule for using a chronograph.

First, NEVER shoot groups while using a chronograph.

Second. If using a scope aim at the sky screen because the bore is a few inches low and you will never hit the sky screens. If you are using irons put a piece of tape between the uprights right below the sky screens and put a dot to aim at on the tape.

[vujade]

Thanks Gordon! 

 

I just checked - 308 (fine, it touches the plate and then a little), 45acp (fine)... 223 - it took another half turn until it touched the die!  I wasn't sizing them enough.  I adjusted and sized a couple dozen cases.  I'll load those later and look forward to testing.

 

I also checked the differences between the match and the other bullets that seemed to work:

 

The seating die is set to make my a-Max cases sized to exactly 2.250.  When I run this same setting on the Match bullets, it sized them to 2.180!!!  I was changing the setting to 2.250 for these match bullets so was essentially backing them quite a bit and therefore making them much longer than they needed to be.  I adjusted accordingly and will be setting these match bullets to 2.200 (nice even number).  When I use amax bullets, it'll change the setting to 2.250.  I made some dummy rounds that I can use as reference points to reset/change the setting more easily next time.

 

I'll load these and see if that fixes #3. 

 

I'll likely keep the charge the same until #3 if fixed so I'm not changing a lot at the same time.

 

Great advice on the chrony! (aim at the shade/sky screen)  My mistake was using it for groups; I paying attention to that instead of remembering that the scope sits higher than the bore.

Edited June 9, 2013 by vujade

[Jonnin]

I did the same thing with the sizing die for a while.  They worked in one gun which made it even harder to diagnose when I tried them in a second .... ! 

[DUXBUSTER]

Coupla things come to mind when I was having extraction issues on a new barrel. I had been using RCBS .223 dies and there are two die sets, ARE you using the SB small base die set 11103 not the 11101 for bolt guns. I know Lee and Dillon only make the tapered die sets for.223.

 

Next issue is your chamber clean, I mean really clean this was my REAL issue as there was fowling in the chamber, it was from the manufacturing process of the barrel, we used a good solvent and chamber brush and a piece of Green Scotch Brite to clean the chamber.

 

This corrected my issues as it was from something in the chamber and I was told by the barrel manufacture what to look for and how to correct it. Yes they use Green Scotch Brite ( I pissed my wife off as I cut a chunk from her scrubby) in the shop to clean chambers.

 

I chucked a short cleaning rod and smaller diameter brush with the SBP into a Dewalt drill to polish the chamber until clean with some CLP on the SBP.

Edited June 9, 2013 by DUXBUSTER

[Luke E.]

 Another thing that will make you scratch you head is... I had my lee sizing die set and was running into the same ( round won't chamber completely but also won't extract ) I farted around with the sizing die until i was good and aggravated. After leaving the bench and cooling off for a bit i came back and found the issue. Not sure how I did it but, I had somehow gotten my bullet seating/ crimp die screwed in to far. I had my OAL set where I wanted it but the crimp was set low enough that it would swell the wall/shoulder transition out ever so slightly and preventing it from chambering. Yes, i felt like an idiot but figured i'd put it out there so maybe it would save someone else the headache.

[vujade]

Coupla things come to mind when I was having extraction issues on a new barrel. I had been using RCBS .223 dies and there are two die sets, ARE you using the SB small base die set 11103 not the 11101 for bolt guns. I know Lee and Dillon only make the tapered die sets for.223.

 

Next issue is your chamber clean, I mean really clean this was my REAL issue as there was fowling in the chamber, it was from the manufacturing process of the barrel, we used a good solvent and chamber brush and a piece of Green Scotch Brite to clean the chamber.

 

This corrected my issues as it was from something in the chamber and I was told by the barrel manufacture what to look for and how to correct it. Yes they use Green Scotch Brite ( I pissed my wife off as I cut a chunk from her scrubby) in the shop to clean chambers.

 

I chucked a short cleaning rod and smaller diameter brush with the SBP into a Dewalt drill to polish the chamber until clean with some CLP on the SBP.

 

Good info Dux.  I need to find out what kind of die I have.   A big difference between the 2 dies for the same caliber?

 

I just checked the chamber.  Yeah, it is dirty.  I use a bore snake for the bore and then q tips to try to clean the chamber area.  It's less than effective on the chamber.   I'll try the scotch bright... Looks like I need a chamber brush too.  I've been looking around local stores and can't seem to find any.  I'll keep looking. 

[vujade]

 Another thing that will make you scratch you head is... I had my lee sizing die set and was running into the same ( round won't chamber completely but also won't extract ) I farted around with the sizing die until i was good and aggravated. After leaving the bench and cooling off for a bit i came back and found the issue. Not sure how I did it but, I had somehow gotten my bullet seating/ crimp die screwed in to far. I had my OAL set where I wanted it but the crimp was set low enough that it would swell the wall/shoulder transition out ever so slightly and preventing it from chambering. Yes, i felt like an idiot but figured i'd put it out there so maybe it would save someone else the headache.

 

Made me think Luke... and I'll check that.  I have a pretty heavy crimp on the 223 (I tried different settings until it was tight enough so that when I chambered dummy rounds, the bullet wouldn't move forward. 

 

I thought the crimp (any crimp no matter how small) would make it 'smaller', how does it make the wall/shoulder slightly larger?

 

(One thing I did to increase neck tension was to take the deprimer part and polish it so that it's every so smaller.  (put the 'rod' in the drill and spun it while holding a wet 1000 grit sandpaper to it.  Took out just enough to make it smooth/remove a little metal.   Read something about it; seemed to help (there is now increased neck tension as well)).

[Dolomite_supafly]

I think the culprit is he was not sizing all the way. I have been guilty of it as well when I first started reloading. I never realized they had to touch until I had loaded about a 100. Fortunately I have a bolt gun in 223 that I could use them in so I didn't have to tear the rounds back down.

 

DO NOT ATTEMPT TO RESIZE THE LOADED ROUNDS. THE DIE IS LIKE A CHAMBER AND IF THE ROUND GOES OFF IT WILL BE VERY BAD.

 

You do not need to crimp, even for an AR. I have shot thousands without every applying a crimp. Neck tension holds the bullet just as good. I had had bullets that had only a crimp and the bullet would wiggle because the neck tension wasn't tight and after the crimp the neck sprang back some.

 

I have not had to use a small base die set EVER but I mention it as an option before I knew he was not sizing all the way.

 

I would get away from the "all-in-one" dies if you want your brass to last. I am talking about the single die that sizes the neck AND the body at the same time. They tend to really work harden the brass and I was only getting about 4 loadings per case unless I annealed the case necks. Annealing was too much of a pain. And when I do use the "all-in-one" I generally remove .002" from the expander ball so I have good neck tension and do not need to crimp. Another reason I do not crimp is because it work hardens the neck.

 

I use a Lee collet die to size the neck only followed by a Redding body die to do the body and bump the shoulder only. Then I am done. The brass doesn't grow as much and lasts so much longer. I have some that have to have at least 15 loadings on them now and you cannot tell. It is also easier physically when you seperate the steps. For a bolt gun you only need to neck size everytime. Then body size every 4th or 5th time when chambering gets a little hard.

 

I even take the collet dies mandrel and chuck it into a drill and remove .002" to increase the neck tension. Using the whole neck to hold the bullet is more secure than just a crimp. It also doesn't deform the bullet like a crimp can either.

 

Get a chamber brush to loosen all the crude then use a 45 caliber bore mop to clean the chamber. Scotch bright might actually roughen the chamber some, I know I use it on SS barrels to give the outside a nice matte finish. If I wanted a nice chamber I would take the 45 caliber bore mop and load it with Flitz or something similar. Then chuck it into a drill and spin it in the chamber for like 30 seconds. It will polish the chamber without removing metal. On locked breech guns there is nothing wrong with having a lisck chamber because the locking lugs are what holds everything in, not side wall pressure.

[Luke E.]

Made me think Luke... and I'll check that.  I have a pretty heavy crimp on the 223 (I tried different settings until it was tight enough so that when I chambered dummy rounds, the bullet wouldn't move forward. 

 

I thought the crimp (any crimp no matter how small) would make it 'smaller', how does it make the wall/shoulder slightly larger?

 

(One thing I did to increase neck tension was to take the deprimer part and polish it so that it's every so smaller.  (put the 'rod' in the drill and spun it while holding a wet 1000 grit sandpaper to it.  Took out just enough to make it smooth/remove a little metal.   Read something about it; seemed to help (there is now increased neck tension as well)).

When using the bullet seater/crimp die it crimps by jamming it up in there further, once it crimps all it can it starts to shove the bullet and neck of the case down into the body of the case. Since the shoulder is tapered it pushes outward and causes the shoulder/wall edge to push outward.. I don't know if this makes much since the way that i've worded it or not. It is more likely that you are not sizing them deep enough but it you correct that and still have the problem this would be a good next place to look. I quit crimping with that die and use it only to seat bullets and started using the Lee "factory crimp" die and it does a great job. 

[Dolomite_supafly]

Setting up dies can be very frustrating but I have found a foolproof way to set them up 99% of the time. To set your seater die do this.

 

Loosen the seater die a few turns.

Loosen the seater stem a few more turns.

Take a piece of FACTORY ammo and place it in the shell holder.

Place the handle of your press at the all the way down position. It should be resting on the presses hard stop.

Slowly screw the seater die in until the die hits resistance and you start to see the handle move. It should not move up any significant amount but just kind of barely move.

Lock the seater die down so it cannot move.

Screw the seater pin in until the handle again starts to move.

 

Now when you load a round it should at least be the same as the factory ammo you used to setup your dies.

 

This will get you very. very close to where you want to be. 9 out of 10 times the seater die is good to go and the only adjustments from then on are with the seater pin. If you do have any issues or want to add a little more crimp only add a 1/8 turn at a time and remember to back the seater pin out the same amount you screw the seater die in.

 

I would also STRONGLY suggest a chamber gauge to check your loaded rounds before you get to the range. 

Edited June 11, 2013 by Dolomite_supafly

[Jamie Jackson]

This is an excellent, and informative thread. Thanks!  :up:

 

All I shoot in my handguns are my handloads...But It's been quite some time since I've reloaded .223/5.56, but I've been collecting and acquiring brass...I have primers, a couple of powders, and even have some 55 gr bullets still on hand.

 

I've had "issues" with buckling the shoulders before...and for quite a few years factory ammo was affordable... Not any longer...

 

I have a set of small base RCBS dies coming this week, and thanks to the excellent info on this thread I'm looking forward to rolling my own 5.56.

 

 

That most recent "tip" is excellent Dolomite.

[Guest nicemac]

Re-iterating what Dolomite said:

"I would also STRONGLY suggest a chamber gauge to check your loaded rounds before you get to the range."

[Luke E.]

This is an excellent, and informative thread. Thanks!  :up:

 

All I shoot in my handguns are my handloads...But It's been quite some time since I've reloaded .223/5.56, but I've been collecting and acquiring brass...I have primers, a couple of powders, and even have some 55 gr bullets still on hand.

 

I've had "issues" with buckling the shoulders before...and for quite a few years factory ammo was affordable... Not any longer...

 

I have a set of small base RCBS dies coming this week, and thanks to the excellent info on this thread I'm looking forward to rolling my own 5.56.

 

 

That most recent "tip" is excellent Dolomite.

 Also something to keep in mind if you experience buckling of the shoulder is, If you have the crimp set fairly tight on a case that is "trim to, length" and you slip in a case that is at the upper end of serviceable length it will likely cause this same issue.

 

 Like Dolomite said, get the case gauge and save a ton of headache. I have a couple that i need to pick up as well.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I trim my cases to 1.745". I used to trim at 1.755"-1.760" and I had to trim every time. I use a Lee trimmer and used a grinder to knock .015" off the stem. With the collet and body die trimming the cases is not happening anywhere near as often.

Having a case too short is never a problem as long as it holds the bullet. Too long can cause serious issues with pressure because the case mouth is held closed by the throat. And the bullet is not released until pressures are dangerous.

[Jamie Jackson]

Thanks Luke and Dolomite.

 

Have you guys considered making this a stickie? Or perhaps a tutorial?

 

Obviously I marked this thread, but I would think other folks venturing into carbine/rifle reloading would find this info very helpful as well.

 

Much obliged folks.