Government snooping poll

[Guest ThePunisher]

Nikita Khrushchev once said "we can't expect the American people to jump from capitalism to communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have communism". I'm afraid that day of awakening has come. We now will have to revise our recent history to say that America did not win the Cold War against communism, but rather our government succumbed to the infiltration of commies from within our country.

[leroy]

Mike and OS:  My opining is the result of wonderin why a complicit bunch like the NYT and other democrat outlets are doin what they are doin.  When i wondered about that a while (...like the great indian character, Lone Waddi, in the "Outlaw Josey Wales"...), i came up with the obama equals satan; hillary equals savior thing; and declared war on both of them. 

 

In my old age, ive come to believe that in politics, especially, nothin happens for "no reason", especially when it comes to the democrat party.   I understand it could be looked upon as nutty; but i wanted ya to understand the rationale for the thinking. 

 

Here's a bit more idle musing to ponder on this subject:

 

I think that there are lots more "True Believers" in the democrat socialist utopia thing in the democrat party in relatively high places within the ruling class and the bureaucratic class who want to stay there.  I really believe they are worried about the political landscape and what could come.  I also believe the democrat party is just like the republican party in that number one, they believe they should "rule over us"; and number two, there are factions which fight for supremacy within the political machine.   I think there are two pretty big democrat factions now;  the obama faction (...brought to you, i think, by the kennedys...) and the clinton faction; with, of course, the "true believers" in the utopia thing that im talkin about (...think head office bureaucrat and democrat party officials in washington pukes here...).

 

I agree that it's a given that the democrats have a political advantage; they give away stuff.  I also believe that there are plenty of complicit republicans who believe the same things as the democrats; that is, that, they ought to "rule over us" and have a piece of the pie; job security so to speak, that keep helpin them (...Some of them must be on the mominating committee of the republican party ALA Romney....).

 

Look at the historical significance of the Obama presidency thing; he is the "new Abe Lincon"; the first black (...sorta...) ever to hold the most powerful office in the world.  Why, then, would the democrat machine throw him under the bus?  The only answer i could come up with wuz the "re-branding" thing.  The point is, that there's somethin up, and it's unusual.  Think about it a bit, and see what ya can come up with.

 

PS:  Just found this.  Check it out.   http://hotair.com/archives/2013/06/07/poll-hillary-clintons-favorable-rating-still-sinking/

 

 

Wonderin leroy

Edited June 8, 2013 by leroy

[Oh Shoot]

Mike and OS:  My opining is the result of wonderin why a complicit bunch like the NYT and other democrat outlets are doin what they are doin.  When i wondered about that a while (...like the great indian character, Lone Waddi, in the "Outlaw Josey Wales"...), i came up with the obama equals satan; hillary equals savior thing; and declared war on both of them. <etc>

 

Well, all an interesting viewpoint, and yeah I admit I've been surprised by some various negative media from traditional sycophants of The Anointed One, but I think it's more about their being in between champions. Like Herr Leader and the Dem Party itself, they're more about elections than anything actually related to effective government itself.

 

And I'll certainly concede that 3.5 years is an eternity in political time, or any kind of time in American life today, as far as that goes, but unless a major socioeconomic change happens before, Hildebeest is in the catbird seat. I said it when she resigned, that the fix had been in all along.

 

She gives four years of service to The Anointed One, thereby bringing the Dems who were bitterly disappointed by her loss of the nomination into the fold, kept her in the press daily doing "important things", and allowed her to bow out with plenty of time to systematically gin up the machine for her Ascension. If BHO winds up being seen as a miserable failure, she was still a team player, and didn't have anything to do with it (after all, she didn't want him to be president), if a success, just more coat tails to ride in on.

 

It was to BHO's benefit to have her heading State, mainly in the "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" sense.

 

Unless the various Benghazi probes eventually show that she and BHO basically said "Screw Chris Stevens, let's have another drink", it won't cost her any significant points at the polls.

 

Keep an eye on Christie. Assuming he almost certainly wins reelection as Guv, I honestly don't see him running for Prez on the GOP ticket. Seriously giving odds here that he might mount an early independent campaign, maybe only half seriously as for as winning, but if his favorability stays high,  with the deal being he becomes Hillary's veep, switching parties in "a true sense of bipartisan service to the country".

 

He'll be a hundred pounds lighter, and she'll look 50 by the time the campaigns begin and unless something overall terrible happens as mentioned in my post above, it would be a cakewalk, even if Christ himself decides to run for the GOP.

 

- OS

Edited June 8, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[Tim Nunan]

"They that give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."  BENJAMIN FRANKLIN

 

"The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions." --American statesman and senator Daniel Webster (1782-1852)

[leroy]

OS:  I like your analysis above; it's another possible branch of the democrat strategy political tree; and i think a good one.  It makes perfect sense.  As to the Christie thing; i think you well could be right on switching parties.   The sad truth is that as Archie Bunker said one time:  "...No matter who wins (...either democrat or lots of republicans...) I (...we...) loose.....".

 

Keep up the good work.

leroy

[mav]

Interesting.  It appears that over a majority of Americans support the snooping. 

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/most-americans-support-nsa-tracking-phone-records-prioritize-investigations-over-privacy/2013/06/10/51e721d6-d204-11e2-9f1a-1a7cdee20287_story.html

 

I give up, sheesh.

[Guest Cazador]

I am totally against the Gov snooping.
As far as Hillary goes I think most people have missed a big news story that was buried on page 6 the day after the last election. In 2008 she ran for the big office and amassed between 25 and 30 million dollar debt. The day after the 2012 election it was announced that her bill was finally paid. HMMM wonder how that happened? Billy was out all year singing praises for the great one, piling on the sugar for a guy he hates. Who was pulling his strings? My guess is someone or group of someones with a thick checkbook. Don't take my word for it do some fact checking.

[Worriedman]

Interesting.  It appears that over a majority of Americans support the snooping. 

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/most-americans-support-nsa-tracking-phone-records-prioritize-investigations-over-privacy/2013/06/10/51e721d6-d204-11e2-9f1a-1a7cdee20287_story.html

 

I give up, sheesh.

Depends on who is setting up the poll, who is tabulating the results, and what their agenda is.  Lying with statistics.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Polls are for people who can't think and for those who want to sway public opinion. Anyone who falls for that

nonsense should just go ahead and become a good soviet.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Interesting.  It appears that over a majority of Americans support the snooping. 

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/most-americans-support-nsa-tracking-phone-records-prioritize-investigations-over-privacy/2013/06/10/51e721d6-d204-11e2-9f1a-1a7cdee20287_story.html

 

I give up, sheesh.

Polls are for people who can't think and for those who want to sway public opinion. Anyone who falls for that

nonsense should just go ahead and become a good soviet.

 

Pew is a lib outfit but seems near the top of the heap in "getting polls right" and doing fairly solid work.

 

If that washpost-pew poll is the same one with detail breakout here--  http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/10/majority-views-nsa-phone-tracking-as-acceptable-anti-terror-tactic/

 

Then the only slight consolation is that the poll was conducted friday thru sunday, and as more people notice the news perhaps views could change somewhat. It wasn't a huge story on friday and perhaps people who pay attention to news don't pay as close attention on weekends. And there are so many oblivious who never pay attention to news.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Lester Weevils

[Guest Lester Weevils]

This one is funny-- James Clapper advice columnist-- http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/10/ask-james-clapper/

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Pew is a lib outfit but seems near the top of the heap in "getting polls right" and doing fairly solid work.

 

If that washpost-pew poll is the same one with detail breakout here--  http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/10/majority-views-nsa-phone-tracking-as-acceptable-anti-terror-tactic/

 

Then the only slight consolation is that the poll was conducted friday thru sunday, and as more people notice the news perhaps views could change somewhat. It wasn't a huge story on friday and perhaps people who pay attention to news don't pay as close attention on weekends. And there are so many oblivious who never pay attention to news.

I know, Lester, but it's the ugly part of democracy that twists and turns sometime intelligent people into unintelligent

and uninformed attitudes. I won't get into the minutiae of poll-making because of the average pollsters out there,

but there are some who do get them right. Still don't like how they have influenced recent events over the last several

decades.

 

One thing I will say about all those who agree with the government is that they are allowing unlawful acts

to continue because of their ambivalence toward unjust laws. Polling justification is circumventing the

legal process, by default.

Edited June 11, 2013 by 6.8 AR

[Guest RedLights&Sirens]

Interesting. It appears that over a majority of Americans support the snooping.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/most-americans-support-nsa-tracking-phone-records-prioritize-investigations-over-privacy/2013/06/10/51e721d6-d204-11e2-9f1a-1a7cdee20287_story.html

I give up, sheesh.

Dont worry, 90% of Americans supported background checks and common sense gun laws and look where that went :-D

/sarcasm Edited June 11, 2013 by RedLights&Sirens

[Guest 6.8 AR]

That was one of the best examples of a touche'.

[mav]

I see that Boner came out today and called the NSA whistleblower a traitor.  I know we are supposed to be cordial to our representatives, but honestly, does anyone else feel like telling all of the supposedly conservative represenatives and senators to go **** themselves?

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I see that Boner came out today and called the NSA whistleblower a traitor.  I know we are supposed to be cordial to our representatives, but honestly, does anyone else feel like telling all of the supposedly conservative represenatives and senators to go **** themselves?

 

I somehow doubt that it is worth posting a poll on THAT question. :)

[vontar]

In regards to the NSA. "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

In short, if you(government) want my information, have probable cause and get a warrant.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

[Guest 6.8 AR]

They seem to think the Patriot Act supercedes the Constitution. Until they get that message, they will keep this stuff up.

[JAB]

To me, it isn't an issue of having, 'something to hide.'  Instead, privacy is an issue of personal liberty.  Personally, I'd rather live in a society where there is even as much as a 5% chance that I will be killed by a terrorist than live in a society where there is a 100% chance that Big Brother is constantly looking over my shoulder and privacy is dead.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I would feel much more secure left to my own devices than the government taking away my rights, in the name of

protecting me, any day of the week.

 

This surveillance, done by the government is directed towards the wrong target. I can't understand why so many

haven't seen this, also. The Russians warned our government about the threat from those two who bombed Boston,

yet they dropped that. TSA is nothing but an embarrassment. Has it ever done much more than make people worry

about their own safety and privacy? Homeland Security has turned us into terrorists by their own documents. We

have reason to be concerned when the government pays more attention to our conversations than doing plain old

police work. It's more akin to the Gestapo when the government uses its power like this. Yep, more Hitler/Godwin

content. :D

 

What exactly is the federal government doing with all that data collecting on American citizens? Political criminality

by making us into criminals when they can get around to it. No other reason. All the laws on the books and there has

to be something they can use against us. You don't spy on your own unless it is political. This action only tells me

they are looking to make more criminals.

 

The next thing you know is your next vote will decide whether or not you are going to be caught in a politically set

trap. We may already be there. States are already being punished by the federal government for their actions.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

To me, it isn't an issue of having, 'something to hide.'  Instead, privacy is an issue of personal liberty.  Personally, I'd rather live in a society where there is even as much as a 5% chance that I will be killed by a terrorist than live in a society where there is a 100% chance that Big Brother is constantly looking over my shoulder and privacy is dead.

 

The supreme court invented the right to privacy in order to legalize abortion. Ain't making opinion on the wisdom of abortion one way or t'other, but I do agree that there is a constitutional right-to-privacy even if those exact words are not spelled out in the document. "NOT HAVING A RIGHT TO PRIVACY" just does not seem at all consistent with the document. If there really is not a detectable right to privacy in the constitution then we desperately need another amendment to make it so.

 

So anyway, if women have enough right to privacy to have abortion choices and birth control choices, then I think that EVERYBODY ought to have enough right to privacy to not have their financial and comm transactions tracked, even at the "meta data" level.

 

What exactly is the federal government doing with all that data collecting on American citizens? Political criminality

by making us into criminals when they can get around to it. No other reason. All the laws on the books and there has

to be something they can use against us. You don't spy on your own unless it is political. This action only tells me

they are looking to make more criminals.

 

I ran across an article which MAY give hints of what they consider valid uses for the data. I don't buy that the solution is worthy of the problem. Like burning down the house to kill off the termites. However, it paints a "rosy picture" of how superman geeks can save the world--

 

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2013/06/is_this_who_runs_prism.php

 

For yet more of a sense of what Palantir does for the US government, here’s a hypothetical of what they make possible for counter-terrorism analysts in the US intel committee, as described in a 2011 article in Bloomberg …

 In October, a foreign national named Mike Fikri purchased a one-way plane ticket from Cairo to Miami, where he rented a condo. Over the previous few weeks, he’d made a number of large withdrawals from a Russian bank account and placed repeated calls to a few people in Syria. More recently, he rented a truck, drove to Orlando, and visited Walt Disney World by himself. As numerous security videos indicate, he did not frolic at the happiest place on earth. He spent his day taking pictures of crowded plazas and gate areas.

None of Fikri’s individual actions would raise suspicions. Lots of people rent trucks or have relations in Syria, and no doubt there are harmless eccentrics out there fascinated by amusement park infrastructure. Taken together, though, they suggested that Fikri was up to something. And yet, until about four years ago, his pre-attack prep work would have gone unnoticed. A CIA analyst might have flagged the plane ticket purchase; an FBI agent might have seen the bank transfers. But there was nothing to connect the two. Lucky for counterterror agents, not to mention tourists in Orlando, the government now has software made by Palantir Technologies, a Silicon Valley company that’s become the darling of the intelligence and law enforcement communities.

The day Fikri drives to Orlando, he gets a speeding ticket, which triggers an alert in the CIA’s Palantir system. An analyst types Fikri’s name into a search box and up pops a wealth of information pulled from every database at the government’s disposal. There’s fingerprint and DNA evidence for Fikri gathered by a CIA operative in Cairo; video of him going to an ATM in Miami; shots of his rental truck’s license plate at a tollbooth; phone records; and a map pinpointing his movements across the globe. All this information is then displayed on a clearly designed graphical interface that looks like something Tom Cruise would use in a Mission: Impossible movie.

As the CIA analyst starts poking around on Fikri’s file inside of Palantir, a story emerges. A mouse click shows that Fikri has wired money to the people he had been calling in Syria. Another click brings up CIA field reports on the Syrians and reveals they have been under investigation for suspicious behavior and meeting together every day over the past two weeks. Click: The Syrians bought plane tickets to Miami one day after receiving the money from Fikri. To aid even the dullest analyst, the software brings up a map that has a pulsing red light tracing the flow of money from Cairo and Syria to Fikri’s Miami condo. That provides local cops with the last piece of information they need to move in on their prey before he strikes.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Well, what they consider justifiable uses and what is actually a justifiable use can be two different things, Lester.

The scenario is of a foreign national who comes in and does a series of things which might raise flags, and I can

wrap my mind around that, but you or I doing similar things, but in a completely legal fashion, I have a problem

with, since, in the first place, they are legal, and secondly, it is none of their business spying on people without a

reason. that foreign national has no rights afforded to him, and you and I do until we break a law, first.

 

The cart is before the horse in their reasoning.

[JAB]

The next thing you know is your next vote will decide whether or not you are going to be caught in a politically set

trap. We may already be there. States are already being punished by the federal government for their actions.

 

This has even scarier implications than what you mentioned.  Think of a scenario where the current or a future regime administration decides that you aren't voting the 'right' way.  All that need be done is to scour your phone records, etc. to find an instance or two of you breaking some obscure but felony-level law.  Wa-la, instant felon with a side dish of losing your voting rights forever.  Rinse and repeat a few thousand times and you could easily sabotage the opposition's ability to gain votes.  What better way to 'fix' subsequent elections?

 

People can holler about tin foil hats all they want but in a world where a government agency (the IRS) has been caught red-handed playing political favorites I say that the people who are out of touch with reality are the ones who deny the possibility.

Edited June 12, 2013 by JAB

[Guest 6.8 AR]

And I was being polite. :D I've decided those who accuse others of the tin foil Barbara Streisand, are themselves

the blind ones. Too much has already happened and very few have noticed, much less scratched their ass.

 

What you mention, JAB, is entirely plausible. It may be already happening, with the harrassment of the Tea Party

by the IRS. The questionaires they use and the tactics of sitting on applications for 501c4's. We have a lot of bad

things with this current regime.

[gjohnsoniv]

The supreme court invented the right to privacy in order to legalize abortion. Ain't making opinion on the wisdom of abortion one way or t'other, but I do agree that there is a constitutional right-to-privacy even if those exact words are not spelled out in the document. "NOT HAVING A RIGHT TO PRIVACY" just does not seem at all consistent with the document. If there really is not a detectable right to privacy in the constitution then we desperately need another amendment to make it so.

 

So anyway, if women have enough right to privacy to have abortion choices and birth control choices, then I think that EVERYBODY ought to have enough right to privacy to not have their financial and comm transactions tracked, even at the "meta data" level.

 

 

I ran across an article which MAY give hints of what they consider valid uses for the data. I don't buy that the solution is worthy of the problem. Like burning down the house to kill off the termites. However, it paints a "rosy picture" of how superman geeks can save the world--

 

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2013/06/is_this_who_runs_prism.php

That's like the "Person of Interest" show premise.