Remember when an attractive conservative woman warned...

[Guest 6.8 AR]

about death panels?

http://washingtonexaminer.com/sebelius-wont-waive-regulation-for-girl-with-five-weeks-to-live-someone-lives-and-someone-dies/article/2531097

 

I won't weigh in on this one particular girl's illness because I remember a little about cystic fibrosis,

but Sebelius's comments made me sick, like she has always in everything I have heard or seen

about her. I'm sure there is more to follow from the NAZI health care queen.

 

Oh, yeh, this, which is illegal, also:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/05/us/politics/sebelius-asked-companies-to-support-health-care-law.html?_r=0

Edited June 5, 2013 by 6.8 AR

[2.ooohhh]

about death panels?

http://washingtonexaminer.com/sebelius-wont-waive-regulation-for-girl-with-five-weeks-to-live-someone-lives-and-someone-dies/article/2531097

 

I won't weigh in on this one particular girl's illness because I remember a little about cystic fibrosis,

but Sebelius's comments made me sick, like she has always in everything I have heard or seen

about her. I'm sure there is more to follow from the NAZI health care queen.

 

Oh, yeh, this, which is illegal, also:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/05/us/politics/sebelius-asked-companies-to-support-health-care-law.html?_r=0

This is NOT Politics, nor is it a death panel.

 

Sebelius has almost no say in the regulations governing organ procurement and distribution. That is all handled by UNOS and the participating member hospitals that nominate and elect the board members for each organ who are tasked with carefully developing rules governing how procured organs are placed.

 

This young girl can have an organ that's why she's been accepted and listed with UNOS, she's just not likely to survive long enough to receive an organ. That's a lack of organ donations issue not a policy issue. It is magnified by the fact that she is in region 2 which has a much lower donation rate than several others nation wide.

 

 

 

"The views and opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of Vanderbilt University Medical Center, and they may not be used for advertising or product endorsement purposes."

[Guest 6.8 AR]

It was primarily a post to show the death panel, not that child, like I said. The death panel does exist. the

physician will be only a referrer to it, eventually.

 

Sebellius did have a hand in making those decisions. She is front and foremost in that process, along with

several noted elitist academicians.

 

The politics was during the debate over Obamacare. This only serves to demonstrate the consequences of

bad law.

 

I am aware of this girl's situation.

[Randall53]

I bet if it was the daughter of Sebellius she'd suspend it.

However. Organ donations can save lives and I am an organ donor. Too many people don't sign up as organ donors. To me that's a real shame.

[2.ooohhh]

It was primarily a post to show the death panel, not that child, like I said. The death panel does exist. the

physician will be only a referrer to it, eventually.

 

Sebellius did have a hand in making those decisions. She is front and foremost in that process, along with

several noted elitist academicians.

 

The politics was during the debate over Obamacare. This only serves to demonstrate the consequences of

bad law.

 

I am aware of this girl's situation.

 

Sebellius had NO hand in writing the UNOS policies concerning procurement and allocation in 2005 or now. There is no rationing of organs nor will there be(they go in better whole), what your seeing is a scarce resource supply and huge demand. The only reasons there are so many regulations with organ procurement is b/c of the scarcity of donated organs in this country. If the politicians want to "fix" transplantation the solution is simple. Change nationwide donation registries to "opt-out" instead of "opt-in" overnight donation rates increase dramatically. With our lazy population I would bet that even fewer would get off their ass to "opt-out" as currently dot he same to vote. As a side benefit people receiving organs begin receiving them earlier while they are still healthy and outcomes further improve from the current years waiting approach.

 

While I generally wouldn't support such ad hominem , neither Sebellius nor Barletta are remotely qualified to make the kinds of medical decisions that they are acting like is common place in their profession(politics) during the video of the discussion.

 

Obamacare does not play into whether a patient is listed for nor receives an organ at most centers via the OPTN and UNOS, only how much and whether or not the center providing the transplant(at great cost) will get payed for it.

 

This girl has already been approved to receive a transplant(not denied as is stated in the video), she's even at the top of the PEDs waiting list for her region, I hope that she receives an organ soon but that is most often up to the families of the soon to be deceased.

 

We can divy up the pie any way the politicians want if they mandate it but the facts of the matter are that the very small number of organs currently available won't ever completely serve the portion of the population currently waiting without a major change to the donation system in this country.

 

Sadly for all our population the last actual medically trained candidate to be chair of H&HS was Dr.Louis Wade Sullivan who served under Bush senior until 1993. :stunned:

 

 

"The views and opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of Vanderbilt University Medical Center, and they may not be used for advertising or product endorsement purposes."

Edited June 5, 2013 by 2.ooohhh

[RichardR]

Change nationwide donation registries to "opt-out" instead of "opt-in" overnight donation rates increase dramatically. With our lazy population I would bet that even fewer would get off their ass to "opt-out" as currently dot he same to vote.

Folks who willingly donate their organs to help others is one thing, ghoulish doctors who forcefully or sneakingly removing organs from unwilling or unknowing is another.

Regardless of any good-intentions, anyone who would do such a thing is no better than & when caught should be treated exactly like the fiendish "corpse eaters" of monster-movie mythology.

Opt-out my ass ...

[Garufa]

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/06/05/parents-file-lawsuit-in-girl-lung-transplant-case/

 

The girl gets on the list for adult lungs.

 

I have to ask....at the top or the bottom of that list?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Sebellius had NO hand in writing the UNOS policies concerning procurement and allocation in 2005 or now. There is no rationing of organs nor will there be(they go in better whole), what your seeing is a scarce resource supply and huge demand. The only reasons there are so many regulations with organ procurement is b/c of the scarcity of donated organs in this country. If the politicians want to "fix" transplantation the solution is simple. Change nationwide donation registries to "opt-out" instead of "opt-in" overnight donation rates increase dramatically. With our lazy population I would bet that even fewer would get off their ass to "opt-out" as currently dot he same to vote. As a side benefit people receiving organs begin receiving them earlier while they are still healthy and outcomes further improve from the current years waiting approach.

 

While I generally wouldn't support such ad hominem , neither Sebellius nor Barletta are remotely qualified to make the kinds of medical decisions that they are acting like is common place in their profession(politics) during the video of the discussion.

 

Obamacare does not play into whether a patient is listed for nor receives an organ at most centers via the OPTN and UNOS, only how much and whether or not the center providing the transplant(at great cost) will get payed for it.

 

This girl has already been approved to receive a transplant(not denied as is stated in the video), she's even at the top of the PEDs waiting list for her region, I hope that she receives an organ soon but that is most often up to the families of the soon to be deceased.

 

We can divy up the pie any way the politicians want if they mandate it but the facts of the matter are that the very small number of organs currently available won't ever completely serve the portion of the population currently waiting without a major change to the donation system in this country.

 

Sadly for all our population the last actual medically trained candidate to be chair of H&HS was Dr.Louis Wade Sullivan who served under Bush senior until 1993. :stunned:

 

 

"The views and opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of Vanderbilt University Medical Center, and they may not be used for advertising or product endorsement purposes."

I am not talking about the vultures, okay? You seem to be stuck on the donor program, of which, and I begrudgingly

agree with Sebellius, okay? I had no comment on the organ donor program. As for the politicians attitude, there

were liberals and conservatives who got it wrong, because of an emotional attachment, instead of rational operation.

 

Since you seem to be stuck on that, my view on the organ donor program is that it is a good, working program for

those who choose to participate. I did not say she had anything to do with this process. I was pointing out her and

her policies affecting Obamacare and how it will affect us with people like her in charge of the entire health care

system. If I didn't make that clear, I apologize. It isn't about that little girl, at all.

 

After the complete implementation of Obamacare, you will see the organ donor program most likely

disappear, due to that death panel I mention and cost, not because of people who care for life, though.

Edited June 6, 2013 by 6.8 AR

[Guest 6.8 AR]

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/06/05/parents-file-lawsuit-in-girl-lung-transplant-case/

 

The girl gets on the list for adult lungs.

 

I have to ask....at the top or the bottom of that list?

She went ahead of the next adult in line, from what I heard on Phil Valentine, this afternoon. Any way you cut it,

someone loses, or wins, however this falls. Kinda like Sebellius saying someone lives and someone dies.

[2.ooohhh]

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/06/05/parents-file-lawsuit-in-girl-lung-transplant-case/

 

The girl gets on the list for adult lungs.

 

I have to ask....at the top or the bottom of that list?

Placement on the list depends on her medical condition, UNOS Liver, Heart, and Lung transplant waitlists are ordered in sickest patient getting organs soonest.(a pretty tight line is walked between sick enough to receive an organ while also being well enough to survive the operation) Kidney and Pancreas waitlists are currently first in-first out which is based on wait time though the center can grant exceptions for rare circumstances(such as a patient that has no viable access location for dialysis) or a patient can bring in a living donor to be transplanted faster.

 

She's now in a group of 216 adult candidates instead of just the 7 PED candidates. While more adults donate there are is much more competition in that particular region for organs.

 

To put it in perspective, were she listed our region she would be one of 2 PED candidates or one of 84 candidates on the adult list.

 

Organs are offered regionally first then for export to other regions, so it'a actually quite likely she could still end up with a PED organ from our region assuming that she's a different blood type than our single currently listed PED.

[TMF]

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/06/05/parents-file-lawsuit-in-girl-lung-transplant-case/

The girl gets on the list for adult lungs.

I have to ask....at the top or the bottom of that list?

What a great precedent. Bitch the loudest and go to the front of the line, which pushes someone down the list who has been waiting longer.

The situation is tragic all around, but looking for a villain here is emotions getting the better of folks. The organ donor system is set up the way it is based on reason and science. A family member of mine just received a transplant this year, so my limited understanding to how it works makes sense. This little girl absolutely deserves to live, but not at the expense of another child or adult who may have a better chance or has been waiting longer simply because her parents were able to navigate the media terrain better than most.

I've read many of the articles surrounding this case and the general comments made by Americans, and they mostly seem to think that the HHS secretary can just wave a magic wand and get this girl an organ. Even if it worked that way, which it doesn't, what precedent does that set? There are people who die each day from injuries and ailments requiring an organ, and it's NOBODY'S fault. It's life, and bad things happen to innocent people. Making snap decisions on a case by case basis due to media attention will only KILL other patients who have been doing the right thing and may have been on the list longer or more qualified for an organ.

[East_TN_Patriot]

Organ Donation: Don't Let These Myths Confuse You

 

Myth: If I agree to donate my organs, the hospital staff won't work as hard to save my life.

Fact: When you go to the hospital for treatment, doctors focus on saving your life — not somebody else's. You'll be seen by a doctor whose specialty most closely matches your particular emergency.

Myth: Maybe I won't really be dead when they sign my death certificate.

Fact: Although it's a popular topic in the tabloids, in reality, people don't start to wiggle their toes after they're declared dead. In fact, people who have agreed to organ donation are given more tests (at no charge to their families) to determine that they're truly dead than are those who haven't agreed to organ donation.

[knewcomb]

Cant remember where I heard it but there were specific reasons with the effects of giving an adult lung to a child. Basically there would be huge complications if they even survived. Edited June 7, 2013 by knewcomb

[2.ooohhh]

Cant remember where I heard it but there were specific reasons with the effects of giving an adult lung to a child. Basically there would be huge complications if they even survived.

 A section of the adult lung is typically resected(removed) adding further trauma to the transplanted organ as well lowering it's ability to oxygenate the blood. 

 

 

The precedent this judge has set with OPTN has many in the transplant community extremely upset. They didn't move this girl to the adult list as if she were 12, nor did they combine the adult and PED lists thereby negating the policy in question. They kept the lists separate and added her to the adult list as well,​ this essentially gives her two chances at an organ while every other patient on every other transplant list in the country has only one.  :down:

[2.ooohhh]

. . . and the race to the courthouse by patients unhappy with their spot on the waiting list has begun.

 

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/news/health/2nd-child-needing-transplant-gets-reprieve-690675/

[knewcomb]

. . . and the race to the courthouse by patients unhappy with their spot on the waiting list has begun.

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/news/health/2nd-child-needing-transplant-gets-reprieve-690675/

This has set a terrible precendent. It a unfortunate fact that you can not save every single person. This judge's decison to move her up for no other reason than her being a 10 yr old little girl is going to cause a ton of problems for this system. Regardless of what the women in the OP has said, this system was set up with the optimal probability in mind, its not meant to be fair. With her having cf, she will require a new lung within 10 years, probably sooner than later. She has a very poor long term pronosis even with the new lung. Once again, making decisons based off of emotion is a very bad decison. Tragic situation all around. Edited June 7, 2013 by knewcomb

[Guest 6.8 AR]

That wasn't the intent of this thread, but okay. I'll try better, next time.

[Hershmeister]

The girl did NOTmove to the top of the list, rather she moved onto the list in a place that equalled where she would have based on her waiting time of 18 months.

Some have argued that this isn't a law and rather rules....it's only the rules that the bureaucracy can control, so to suggest that no person in charge can change them is disingenuous or ignorant.

[Hershmeister]

Watch the video clip of her testimony at the following link. Then ask a liberal if government is "good"

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/06/sebelius-to-dying-10-year-old-girl-someone-lives-someone-dies-video/

[TMF]

Some have argued that this isn't a law and rather rules....it's only the rules that the bureaucracy can control, so to suggest that no person in charge can change them is disingenuous or ignorant.

These policies aren't made by a single person, nor are they made overnight. If a change to the policy must be made there has to be actual RESEARCH backed decision from a panel of really smart folks. It isn't something based on the emotions of people ignorant of the system.... well now it is I guess. Anyone waiting on an organ right now is probably mortified at the judge's order.

[2.ooohhh]

The girl did NOTmove to the top of the list, rather she moved onto the list in a place that equalled where she would have based on her waiting time of 18 months.

Some have argued that this isn't a law and rather rules....it's only the rules that the bureaucracy can control, so to suggest that no person in charge can change them is disingenuous or ignorant.

 

The waiting list for a Lung is not like a line at the grocery store checkout, being listed longer does not move you forward at all. Lungs are distributed on a clinical need vs outcomes model. The sickest patient with the best chance of a positive outcome is given priority. She has been added to the adult list as well as the PEDs list but even so she stands very low odds of receiving an organ b/c of her CF and how well she is.

[Hershmeister]

She was reported to have been at the top of the Pediatric list

[2.ooohhh]

She was reported to have been at the top of the Pediatric list

There is no "top of" the organ list in any organs other than Kidney, Pancreas, and combined Kidney Pancreas. The reporter likely couldn't properly explain how to balance a checkbook much less calculate a lung allocation score. (not the reporter's fault she's likely not paid to understand the ins and outs of solid organ transplant like I am. :2cents: )

 

Factors in calculating the LAS

• diagnosis of the patient (e.g. emphysema, cystic fibrosis, etc.);
• age of the patient;
• body mass index;
• presence or absence of diabetes mellitus;
• ability to function according to the NYHA scale;
• perecentage of predicted forced vital capacity (FVC);
• systolic pressure of the pulmonary artery;
• mean pressure of the pulmonary artery (only required of sarcoidosis patients);
• pulmonary capillary wedge pressure (PCW pressure);
• flow rate of supplemental oxygen required at rest;
• distance walked in six minutes;
• need or lack of need for continuous mechanical ventilation;
• levels of creatinine in the blood.

 

 

 

 

A change in the patient's base data changes the LAS, which in turn may reorder the entire list for that patient's blood group. With a population of 200+ patients as in region 2 where this girl is currently listed I can assure that this happens multiple times a day 365 days a year as centers update the listed patients' wedge pressures, O2 requirement's, systolic pressures, and Creat. values. to add to the confusion the raw LAS score can be altered by a physician filing and receiving and exemption for a test a patient cannot currently complete from the UNOS Lung review Board, this could give the patient a modified LAS for a period of up to 30 days when it must be either re-applied for or cancelled. Most often when I see these approved it's b/c the patient can't perform a 6 min. walk due to their condition. Time on the list can play a factor in who gets a Lung but only as a tiebreaker for patients with the same LAS.

 

In a blood group the patients are listed in order by LAS with distance to the organ as a modifier and age of the donor determining which recipient age groups the organ will be offered to.

 

 

What the reporter probably was supposed to say was that they patient was "listed as status 1A on the 12-17 age range list for her blood type for the next 10 days."

 

 

To be quite frank, statistically this girl's changes of getting an organ likely went up as much or more from school letting out for the summer than it did from all the parent's legal wrangling.

Edited June 7, 2013 by 2.ooohhh

[QuietDan]

This is NOT Politics, nor is it a death panel.

 

Sebelius has almost no say in the regulations governing organ procurement and distribution. That is all handled by UNOS and the participating member hospitals that nominate and elect the board members for each organ who are tasked with carefully developing rules governing how procured organs are placed.

 

This young girl can have an organ that's why she's been accepted and listed with UNOS, she's just not likely to survive long enough to receive an organ. That's a lack of organ donations issue not a policy issue. It is magnified by the fact that she is in region 2 which has a much lower donation rate than several others nation wide.

 

 

 

"The views and opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of Vanderbilt University Medical Center, and they may not be used for advertising or product endorsement purposes."

 

I call B.S. on this. In the narrow sense, it may be a medical issue. In the larger sense, EVERYTHING is political, everything has been politicized. Sebelius has the power to overrule, and just chooses not to use it. This is underscored by the judicial injunction that will force the issue.

 

I personally think that the Secretary of HHS should NOT have a role in these decisions, but the impending, imminent, evil Obamacare juggernaut is coming down the pike and the stupid bureaucrats and administrators are now firmly in the middle of medical decisions now. It may become an all inclusive, pervasive interference from now on.

 

We have entered a really insidious period in which politics have been injected into medical issues, and a lot of other issues as well.

 

Doctors and other medical personnel who believe they retain control over their medical domain are deluding themselves.

 

Rome went from a Republic with two Consuls to an Empire with an Emperor in very short order; Consuls continued to be elected, but they were essentially powerless. The Roman Senate continued to meet and pretend it had some influence over the State, but all was lost and never regained, even though the trappings of the Republic remained for centuries. We are now there.

 

IMO.

Edited June 7, 2013 by QuietDan

[2.ooohhh]

Well up until the judge crossed that line several hours after my post, this particular corner of healthcare WASN'T political.  H&HS has a contract with UNOS with the specific intent to wash their hands of the selection and distribution process to keep the politics out of it and require that all decisions be fact based. Now that has all changed and there are going to be major repercussions within the transplant/medical community. Sebelius could not overrule only request that the medical board review the policy(it's up for review and discussion with the UNOS board on 6/10 now), but apparently the lawyers for UNOS agreed that a Judge could and proceeded to submit to the injunction.