Wilson? Nighthawk? what's the big deal?

[Guest jwp]

Guns which are built from a bin of interchangeable parts have their advantages, but they simply won't have the precision of properly fitted, matched parts. Both have their proper applications... since it wouldn't make much sense to arm every LEO or soldier with a Wilson/Ed Brown/etc unless they could shoot them well enough in their application to take full advantage of them, when cheaper pistols will send lead downrange just as reliably (perhaps in some conditions, moreso), and you'll never notice the extra couple inches in group-size at 25yd, since they are firing under stress, anyways.

You're assuming that Wilson and Brown pistols aren't made from bin(s) of parts. They might not be as "assembly line" made as Glock, but they are in no way totally hand fit either.

[DaveTN]

Guns which are built from a bin of interchangeable parts have their advantages, but they simply won't have the precision of properly fitted, matched parts.

That’s the point that I am questioning. What parts of a Smith & Wesson or a Kimber are improperly matched parts? I have spent my life in the machine trades. This is 2008 not 1968, those parts in those bins could be made either by a company producing parts that are junk or they could be made by a company that can easily produce far superior parts than a machinist with basic machines can produce. I would guess that S&W or Kimber can produce high quality parts or get them from a supplier that does.

Again… I’m just questioning this; not arguing it. I truly would like to see how a high end production gun would compare to one of these “Custom†guns costing three times the money. How much smaller group does that extra money get you?

[Guest grimel]

Come on. Be honest, you haven't looked at them. You're just trying to be cute and witty.

He extended an honest invitation to you and all you had was that?

Really, come on in. Don't be shy, tell whomever is working the counter that you're here to see me and I'll personally show you the pistols and then spot you a box or two of ammo so you can shoot them free of charge and see what you think. I'll even let you shoot one of my Brown, Yost or other personal, custom 1911s for a real, honest comparison.

I guarantee that you'll see the difference and agree that we're making one of the best custom 1911s on the market today.

I haven't looked at them? Okay, I'm guessing you are the young tall thin guy. I've shot a few thousand rounds down your range in the last year alone. I've looked over and pawed quite a few of your guns. From the HP's to the chopped 1911's to the race guns on display. You've tended toward a fairly good turnover on your display guns.

I can come by again, but, I can't give a fair shooting evaluation of any handguns yet (I've only been released from PT to self based rehab since the 4th)..

[Guest grimel]

Well good grief man, I have a “High End†1911 and didn’t even know it.

I have a Smith & Wesson SW1911 Stainless Target that I’ll put up against anything in that list. I really don’t know about the Wilson, but since it’s a compact I’ll guess that it will out perform it.

My gun only cost $910 OTD. I thought the requirement was paying $1000 over the cost of a production gun and having someone else’s name on it to be considered “high end�

I had to get my S&W out and look, and it has a gap. Does that knock me back down to bottom feeder status?

We need to find an impartial bullseye shooter and put this issue to rest.

I was giving a list of what I have and have had.

The Wilson compact was only guaranteed to shoot 1.5" at 25yds. The 1991 would shoot 5 shot cloverleafs (NRA expert shooter) at 25yds. I really hated Darrel for doing that. Lost any excuse for missing after that.

As for a bullseye shooter, if you want the accuracy of the guns a Ransom Rest needs to be used and a variety of ammo.

The semi-custom/custom 1911's shine it consistency. Every decent 1911 from the rest will shoot well with some load, the top guns shoot well with "everything".

[Guest grimel]

Again… I’m just questioning this; not arguing it. I truly would like to see how a high end production gun would compare to one of these “Custom†guns costing three times the money. How much smaller group does that extra money get you?

As someone posted earlier, the $3000 gun isn't 3x better than the $1000 gun. One reaches a point of diminishing returns (and reaches it rather quickly). IMO, the $700-1000 price point is the sweet spot. After that, you are paying a lot for a little gain. Depending on your wants and needs it may or may not be worth it. I paid $400 to customize the last 1911 I had worked on. It was perfect for it's job.

The important part of a semi-custom/custom gun I don't recall anyone mentioning it matching the maker to your wants. It would be the height of stupidity to want a carry gun and buy a Clark match gun. It would be equally stupid to buy a Vicker's carry gun and expect to win at Camp Perry.

[Guest Phantom6]

As someone posted earlier, the $3000 gun isn't 3x better than the $1000 gun. One reaches a point of diminishing returns (and reaches it rather quickly). IMO, the $700-1000 price point is the sweet spot. After that, you are paying a lot for a little gain. Depending on your wants and needs it may or may not be worth it. I paid $400 to customize the last 1911 I had worked on. It was perfect for it's job.

The important part of a semi-custom/custom gun I don't recall anyone mentioning it matching the maker to your wants. It would be the height of stupidity to want a carry gun and buy a Clark match gun. It would be equally stupid to buy a Vicker's carry gun and expect to win at Camp Perry.

What? You mean I won't get high point when I shoot my HighPoint?

[willis68]

Gentlemen,

If you truly want to know the differences, this is not the correct site, as good as TGO is it does not specialize in the 1911, go here http://forum.m1911.org/index.php or here http://forums.1911forum.com/index.php and read till your hearts content of what thousands of owners actually think of each brand of 1911, this thread has grown long in the tooth here........

Edited August 15, 2008 by willis68

[molonlabetn]

You're assuming that Wilson and Brown pistols aren't made from bin(s) of parts. They might not be as "assembly line" made as Glock, but they are in no way totally hand fit either.

But there is an (arguably significant) difference in the individual attention given to each firearm... and that is what one pays for. Not saying that price is equivalent to the value-added (see my previous posts), but it does produce a measurable improvement in precision.

[Guest jwp]

But there is an (arguably significant) difference in the individual attention given to each firearm... and that is what one pays for. Not saying that price is equivalent to the value-added (see my previous posts), but it does produce a measurable improvement in precision.

True. Glocks can be slapped together with little if no fitting. It is not uncommon for someone to take the slide from a 19 and put in another frame with no issues what so ever. The 1911 parts might require a little hand fitting, but most of the parts that the larger "custom" 1911 makers are using are created using MIM and CNC technology and are not going to need hours upon hours of hand filing and fitting to make the proper fit for function.

Take our guns for example, we put approximately 50+ hours of hand labor in to each and every one of the guns we make. It is very unlikely that even the bushing will go on another slide without fitting, they are hard enough to get off with a bushing wrench.

[TGO David]

Gentlemen,

If you truly want to know the differences, this is not the correct site, as good as TGO is it does not specialize in the 1911, go here http://forum.m1911.org/index.php or here http://forums.1911forum.com/index.php and read till your hearts content of what thousands of owners actually think of each brand of 1911, this thread has grown long in the tooth here........

With all due respect, 1911forum.com blows. If you so much as forget to genuflect and cross yourself as you pass the giant painting of St. John Moses Browning in the foyer, you'll receive swift and brutal punishment at the hands of their moderators.

I once said that a certain accessory "sucked" on that forum and received a disciplinary action from their moderating team for using such urbane language. Please.

If you really want to know about solid fighting 1911s, visit Hilton Yam's 10-8 Forums and do yourself a favor and keep quiet for a while. They are polite but intolerant of neophyte questions that ruin their signal-to-noise ratio.

[willis68]

With all due respect, 1911forum.com blows. If you so much as forget to genuflect and cross yourself as you pass the giant painting of St. John Moses Browning in the foyer, you'll receive swift and brutal punishment at the hands of their moderators.

I once said that a certain accessory "sucked" on that forum and received a disciplinary action from their moderating team for using such urbane language. Please.

If you really want to know about solid fighting 1911s, visit Hilton Yam's 10-8 Forums and do yourself a favor and keep quiet for a while. They are polite but intolerant of neophyte questions that ruin their signal-to-noise ratio.

Agreed, m1911.org "John" the Greek Moderator can be an ass, and the 10-8 forums are superior as they have professional members whom use these guns everyday, however all of these forums are great for just snooping around and getting opinions of every specific 1911

[Guest Verbal Kint]

With all due respect, 1911forum.com blows. If you so much as forget to genuflect and cross yourself as you pass the giant painting of St. John Moses Browning in the foyer, you'll receive swift and brutal punishment at the hands of their moderators.

I once said that a certain accessory "sucked" on that forum and received a disciplinary action from their moderating team for using such urbane language. Please.

If you really want to know about solid fighting 1911s, visit Hilton Yam's 10-8 Forums and do yourself a favor and keep quiet for a while. They are polite but intolerant of neophyte questions that ruin their signal-to-noise ratio.

+1

I've had issues on there before, as well, for literally no reason. Think I commented on something or stuck up for another member by saying "Hey, maybe he has a point, though, because..." and pretty much got my ass chewed by the nazi mods over there. Was threatened with a ban if I didn't keep quiet.

[Kano]

WOW ....something I agree with you guys on.....1911forum.com & John & his moderators... Total Pro Nighthawk board because Nighthawk gave John a free Talon and they pay money every month to advertise on his board. John owns 1 Nighthawk and is an EXPERT on every Nighthawk model and other high end guns . The Mods KISS his ugly ass to stay on good terms with him .

[Kano]

Again… I’m just questioning this; not arguing it. I truly would like to see how a high end production gun would compare to one of these “Custom†guns costing three times the money. How much smaller group does that extra money get you?

Dave I was a member at the Smith & Wesson range before I moved to TN...10 Months ago. Smith & Wesson Springfield, MA..I lived 30 mins away in CT. Mass has some stupid gun laws and restrictions on what pistols you can own. More than one person working there like my 1911's & wished they could own 1911's that where not restricted. The S&W Performance Center 1911's are very good at 25 & 50 yards. The other ones are decent but nothing great. I agree that spending over $2000 for a 1911 is over kill...but I have 1911's that will do 10 shot groups of 1" at 50 yards. Some are 1 1/2" ..I can't shoot that good but I have done some good groups. Your pistol is good but it will not come close to 10 shot groups at 25 or 50 yards...sure you don't need a pistol to group that well ...but I am into trying to put rounds in the same hole at long range.

Does anyone need a pistol to shoot that good at long range NO...but I enjoy it ...PEACE

[KahrMan]

.but I have 1911's that will do 10 shot groups of 1" at 50 yards. Some are 1 1/2" ..

BS. I think you need to send me your 1911's so I can verify that claim!

[Kano]

The targets below are 10 shot groups at 50 yards in a Ranson Rest of 1' & 1".396 from my Marvel Custom... ... I had a S&W 1911 and for the $$$ they are good guns !! but they will not group the same ..Like I said you don't need a 1911 to be that good at long range... but it comes down too personal choice..

Your pistol at only 25 yards

from Guns & Ammo

By Wiley Clapp

The Shooting Session

To break in the S&W 1911, I ran several boxes of miscellaneous loads through it, mostly 230-grain ball and JHPs, at my local club range. I wanted to use 230s to get full recoil and a subjective impression of the pistol's handling with real-world ammo. I tried tin-can rolling and dirt-clod busting along with some fast target drills (Hammers and Mozambiques) and found that the SW1911 performs every bit as well as any Government Model I've ever fired. The trigger is on the heavy side but still bearable. Having dry-fired the gun before I ever loaded it, I was aware of the need to really get into the grip safety to be sure the firing-pin block is cleared. Any Government Model is best used with a positive grip and aggressive handling; this one is no exception. It's also true that you need a strong, locked-wrist grip to ensure proper functioning. Don't limp-wrist it (or any other 1911, for that matter).

To evaluate accuracy, I used a Ransom Rest bolted to a rigid concrete bench. After a couple of magazines to settle the gun in the inserts, I lined up my Oehler 35P chronograph screens and started shooting for record. The actual shooting went uneventfully. With each of 10 different loads, I fired a 10-shot group using five rounds from each of the two provided magazines. In short order I had a short stack of targets from which I was able to derive some interesting information. The overall average group size was 2.87 inches, and the best group measured 2.15 inches (fired with Black Hills 230-grain JHPs)--all in all, an excellent performance for a box-stock, service-grade 1911-style pistol.

Final Thoughts

Although the idea of a Smith & Wesson Government Model may seem a trifle unusual to some, it seems perfectly clear to me that this is a fine rendering of a classic. I believe it will quickly become a staple of the service pistol scene. We are going to see SW1911s in SWAT cop holsters, on the firing line at IPSC and IDPA matches and even in Milt Sparks rigs at Gunsite and Thunder Ranch. And, believe me, this first standard SW1911 is just the beginning. Other variations are on the way. Stay tuned.

10 Rounds 50 yards ......................................................................................................................10 Rounds 50 yards

Edited August 15, 2008 by Kano

[Magiccarpetrides]

I limp wristed the heck(on purpose) outta my DW and she still shot and fed perfect...Ymmv

[KahrMan]

That's cool. Nice shooting. I love making small groups.

[Kano]

I limp wristed the heck(on purpose) outta my DW and she still shot and fed perfect...Ymmv

Which DW ?? they seem to make a great pistol for money.

[Magiccarpetrides]

Which DW ?? they seem to make a great pistol for money.

Dan Wesson Commander Bobtail .45 If I dont like the EMP 9mm I just picked up im probably gonna trade it in and add a DW 10mm to the collection also

Its my first 1911 but not my first .45 and I can say thats its definitely less finicky then any of the other plastic fantastic .45's I have shot. Definitely way more accurate then I am also and so far it has fed every kind of HP and FMJ round I have fed it.

[Kano]

That's cool. Nice shooting. I love making small groups.

Bob Marvel did those in a RR before he shipped out the pistol..... I would love to be able to that ...it's my dream & my NIGHTHMARE....

[Kano]

Dan Wesson Commander Bobtail .45 If I dont like the EMP 9mm I just picked up im probably gonna trade it in and add a DW 10mm to the collection also

Its my first 1911 but not my first .45 and I can say thats its definitely less finicky then any of the other plastic fantastic .45's I have shot. Definitely way more accurate then I am also and so far it has fed every kind of HP and FMJ round I have fed it.

THANKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Magiccarpetrides]

if your ever near knoxville lemme know and you can shoot it.

[strickj]

I love my Taurus PT1911

[DaveTN]

Kano, Sorry for there misunderstanding. I was reading about some of the groups posted here and I’m thinking , there aren’t many people that can shoot 1 ½†groups at 50 yards (or even 25 yards).

However… I am talking about standing. Offhand, no rests, slings, arm braces or other equipment; just you and the gun.

If you put a pistol in a ransom rest or a rifle in a sled; where’s the skill?