Help with SBR for the wife

[Romad7]

I'm in the planning stages of building the perfect PDW for my wife and I'm leaning towards a 300 BLK SBR. Problem is that she doesn't like ARs for the following reasons. Please realize that while we may find some of these reasons to be not a big deal, they are important to her so I would like to build a gun that is comfortable for her.

Rifle is a DD M4 with Samson Evo 12".

Charging handle is awkward for her. I'm thinking a non reciprocating charging handle on the left in front of the receiver would be best.

Weight of the rifle is difficult for her. She is in great shape but not happy with the weight of a full sized rifle. This is why I'm going with an SBR.

Needs to be quiet (I fully understand the limitations of this) so it'll need to be easily suppressed while maintaining good ballistics out to 200yds or so. If she grabs this for defense the noise of a rifle round would probably be too much without ear pro.

My thoughts are a 300 BLK 8-9.5" barrel with titanium suppressor.

The only thing that looks really good at the moment is the new ARAK-21 upper but their SBR is going to be 11.5" and I would like to go shorter if I'm going to do the whole SBR thing.

I'm have also looked at these but they're not really doing for me.
ACR
SCAR
Tavor

Am I overlooking something great? Your thoughts on the whole thing?

Thanks!

[c.a.willard]

If I can make  suggestion. For a defensive weapon don't limit yourself to just rifle caliber weapons.  There are lots of PCC's on the market that make wonderful defensive weapons.  They may not have the range that a rifle round does but it will open up the amount of options you have.    

 

As or a suppressor.  Quiet guns are nice to have and all.  and im not knocking a suppressor on a defensive gun, but they really do not gain you much. With the adrenaline pumping you really do not notice the noise flash and pressure of a gun shot nearly as much as most people think you would. 

[Romad7]

I think the limiting factor that will make the difference for this is the effective range of a PCC.  This is mainly for if she has to take the fight outside.  The ideal weapon would have an effective range of at least 200 yds.  How would a PCC perform in that scenario?  My experience is only with rifle caliber carbines so I don't have much practical experience with the limitations of PCCs.  

 

The suppressor is more icing on the cake and something that I want as well:-)  She is pretty sensitive to loud noises so I am just trying to stack the deck in her favor.  I have had M4s fired within feet of my head in combat so I completely get where you are coming from but she not trained to handle that kind of thing yet (although she would likely surprise me).  I'm am working on the training part though, just did some drills a couple days ago and she's looking good.

[Il Duce]

If I can make suggestion. For a defensive weapon don't limit yourself to just rifle caliber weapons. There are lots of PCC's on the market that make wonderful defensive weapons. They may not have the range that a rifle round does but it will open up the amount of options you have.

As or a suppressor. Quiet guns are nice to have and all. and im not knocking a suppressor on a defensive gun, but they really do not gain you much. With the adrenaline pumping you really do not notice the noise flash and pressure of a gun shot nearly as much as most people think you would.

You will still get damage to the ears.

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[Smith]

If the weight of an AR is an issue nothing you mentioned would be any better. Getting a lightweight barrel will save more weight than anything and then just be picky with your furniture. The Magpul HG's work great and are light. 300 blk out would be great in an SBR or you can stay with 5.56 with a longer lightweight barrel.

[Romad7]

You will still get damage to the ears.

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This too.  Even though it would be minimal, it would still concern my wife a lot if she had to use it for real.

[Romad7]

If the weight of an AR is an issue nothing you mentioned would be any better. Getting a lightweight barrel will save more weight than anything and then just be picky with your furniture. The Magpul HG's work great and are light. 300 blk out would be great in an SBR or you can stay with 5.56 with a longer lightweight barrel.

I think an SBR AR in 300 BLK is about as good as it gets and likely will be my personal build.  The thing is the ergonomics of the charging handle.  For us shooters it seems like a small issue but for her its a big deal.  Makes things much more difficult for me but I do love shopping for gun stuff!

[dcloudy777]

American Spirit Arms does a nice side-charging AR upper, but it's pricey.

 

JP does an even nicer one, that's even more pricey.

 

If you don't mind a reciprocating charging handle, there are a few less expensive options for side-charging ARs.

[Romad7]

American Spirit Arms does a nice side-charging AR upper, but it's pricey.

JP does an even nicer one, that's even more pricey.

If you don't mind a reciprocating charging handle, there are a few less expensive options for side-charging ARs.

I'll check those out, thanks!

[Trekbike]

Just wanted to throw this out since it came up in the meeting several of us had with Chip Cain from Cain Law Firm at the end of last year. He mentioned he had fielded a question from a client regarding having a suppressed SBR AR for a HD gun and how would it be perceived if he had to use it. Chip said while it was an excellent tool for the job, it would be viewed very negatively by the jury and make the defense in court even tougher even if it was a good shoot. His advice was not to use one from a legal point of view, YMMV.

[Romad7]

Just wanted to throw this out since it came up in the meeting several of us had with Chip Cain from Cain Law Firm at the end of last year. He mentioned he had fielded a question from a client regarding having a suppressed SBR AR for a HD gun and how would it be perceived if he had to use it. Chip said while it was an excellent tool for the job, it would be viewed very negatively by the jury and make the defense in court even tougher even if it was a good shoot. His advice was not to use one from a legal point of view, YMMV.

Did he specify if the suppressor was the problem or the SBR or both?

[Il Duce]

Get a MSAR STG. Super light and no need for a SBR as it is a bullpup

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[Romad7]

Get a MSAR STG. Super light and no need for a SBR as it is a bullpupSent from my SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

I forgot about that one and it comes in 300 BLK. Thanks!

[Il Duce]

Np

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[Dolomite_supafly]

I would caution against using NFA for HD. If something does happen you are going to be without your stuff for a very long time. Even if you are 100% right they are going to hold your stuff until the trial is over.

 

Also, 200 yards is mighty optimistic for a SD situation. You would have a hard time explaining why you shot rather than run if the bad guy is 200 yards away.

 

If you want light you need to forget about aluminum. You need to get a polymer lower and carbon fiber free float tube to keep the weight down. I have a 20" AR in 223 that weighs an honest 5 pounds. It would be easy to duplicate because I used all off the shelf parts. You could do the same in 300 Blackout and save a little weight with a 16" barrel.

 

And as much of a fan of the 300 I am I would take a hard look at a 9mm carbine. There is no muzzle blast to contend with without a suppressor. It will be loud but no where near as loud as a 300 BO. It is generally easier to charge than most other calibers. Out of a rifle barrel it gives 357 Magnum type performance. And the best thing is the gun is a blowback which makes it supremely reliable. My wife's 9mm AR has over 9K rounds through it and it has been cleaned 3 times since new. And if you must suppress it will suppress easier and cheaper than a 300 Blackout. A 9mm suppressor is generally smaller and lighter than suppressors that will work with full power 300BO. I would NEVER use subsonic 300 Blackout for a self defense round. I have been doing a lot of testing as of late and they pass right through water jugs without tumbling or expanding. A slow, heavy bullet is more likely to over penetrate than a lighter faster bullet.

[Oh Shoot]

I think the limiting factor that will make the difference for this is the effective range of a PCC.  This is mainly for if she has to take the fight outside.  The ideal weapon would have an effective range of at least 200 yds.....

 

Neither point computes with "personal defense".

 

- OS

[Trekbike]

Did he specify if the suppressor was the problem or the SBR or both?

I believe it was both. That's not viewed as a normal weapon for HD for the average Joe. Appears as though you are looking for trouble.

Additionally, I recall him telling about a survey that was done regarding men and women and different firearms and the impression that people had. IIRC, a woman using an AR was viewed more negatively than a man using one because it's not as common to see a woman with an AR.

[Romad7]

Lots of good points and I'll address the main one. Neither one of us are looking for a fight, I can see how it might looks that way but I can assure you I am not "that guy". We are just aware that in every bad guy scenario, we are the first line of defense.

The conversation started when my wife asked me about what to do if someone grabbed our child from our home and was running away with her. She asked which weapon to use. I realized that I don't have anything that she would be comfortable with practicing enough to be able to take the shot (she is a very good shot under optimal conditions, I would introduce her to stress training). So I started thinking about what to get her for such a situation and here we are.

This would be a last resort weapon since we have enough "normal" defense weapons available for home defense. So, if this gun is being used its for a reason that, to us, would justify the legal issues of losing the gun or anything else. The range is because of the land that we own, 200 is about the max range from the house to the furthest points on our property. Also, as for over penetration, we talked about that and I don't want to go on record with my thoughts on how to handle that.

I am a reasonable man am I am truly taking all of your advice into account here. I laid in bed last night war gaming all of this in my head. Heck, with all the good points that were brought up, she might be better off with a 357 mag lever gun, I'm seriously considering that.

Thanks:-)

[Romad7]

I believe it was both. That's not viewed as a normal weapon for HD for the average Joe. Appears as though you are looking for trouble.

Additionally, I recall him telling about a survey that was done regarding men and women and different firearms and the impression that people had. IIRC, a woman using an AR was viewed more negatively than a man using one because it's not as common to see a woman with an AR.

I can see how this would happen in our society. I hate that if I am prepared for any situation with the best tools available and arm my family to do the same then I am looking for trouble! I'm not upset with anyone here, you guys are just trying to help me but its the general public that is annoying me with all their ignorance and whining.

Thanks:-)

[dcloudy777]

The M1 Carbine is an excellent HD weapon as well... practically no recoil, not "scary looking", plenty accurate out to 150 yds or so.  Pretty much .357Mag power levels in a handy little semi-auto package.  Just more food for thought. 

[Trekbike]

I can see how this would happen in our society. I hate that if I am prepared for any situation with the best tools available and arm my family to do the same then I am looking for trouble! I'm not upset with anyone here, you guys are just trying to help me but its the general public that is annoying me with all their ignorance and whining.

Thanks:-)

 

I know what you mean.   That meeting with Chip Cain put a lot of worry in my mind of how the legal system and jury can go against you even if you are in the right in a defensive shooting just based on perception.  So much so I decided to join the Armed Citizen Legal Defense Network just as a small step in legal protection should something happen.   

[Romad7]

Good reminder, I was looking at joining too.

[173rdABN]

Mp5, ump, aks74u. I'd consider all those. I have an mp5 in 9mm and .40 and I'd take either to a 200 yard fight. Me and DMark were shooting steel at 220 yards at GGC no problem. With both calibers. Yeah pistol calibers might not do much at that range but does your wife really need to worry about that? What are the odds she shooting that distance to kill.

[Romad7]

Those sound like good options, I was looking lustfully at a UMP myself:-)

Which pistol caliber would you recommend if you had to pick one?

The odds are quite low that she'll have to take the shot and this is one of those things that makes me wonder if I am being too paranoid. But I enjoy gun shopping with a purpose in mind and something like a PCC would be useful in the more likely situation of her being cornered in the house by an intruder....or zombies;-)

Thanks

[zgunbear]

If she already has a Glock Pistol I would suggest a Just Right Carbine. They use Glock mags and the same receiver can be set up for 9mm, .40 sw, and .45 acp. 

I have shot mine at 100 and gotten center of mass hits on a standard silhouette target.