Frank Lautenberg has died.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

:rofl: You're too much for me.

[mikegideon]

I'm not as kind and reasonable as some are.  Frank Lautenberg was a grandfatherly old man and grandpaw to someone who loved him; and i'm willing to concede and accept that fact.  He was also one of the most dangerous statist sons of Marx that made it way too entirely long (...in my view...) into the twenty-first century.  He and others like him have done this country and its citizens great harm and no one who loves freedom should be sad that he is gone to his reward.

 

Frank Lautenberg was a thoroughly dangerous opportunistic man; and was no friend to this country, freedom, or the Constitution. He could have just as well been decorated with the Order of Lennin for his service to socialism, as he could have been a WW 2 veteran.  As others have opined; i wonder which side he fought on....?

 

His votes, "public service", and belief system gave us people like Barak Obama and this pseudo socialist government we have today. He has pillaged the pockets of citizens, taken their rights, and enriched himself and his sorry associates for many a year.  People like Frank Lautenberg believe that folks like us "delightful rustics' are a rabble to be controlled and serfs to pony up whatever the "ruling elites" demand.   Frank Lautenberg (...and others like him....)  brought old world belief systems and serfdom to the new world.  They believed that they were the "best and brightest" and that the citizenry was a rabble to be controlled and to be made to bow down to these "ruling elites"; just as they have been made to do in New Jersey and New York.  If he had have had his way; the "New Jersey and New York" way would have been made the law of this entire land.

 

Dont be sad that he is dead.  You can be polite to the family; but dont gloss over the truth.  Remember this; everybody blesses us in some way; some by staying and helping, some by leaving.  Thank you Lord that You have called this dangerous man to his reward.

 

leroy

 

Yep. I'm fixin' to raise a toast to the old commie in a minute.

[Chief07]

old people die, it happens every day.  Lautenberg was a poster boy for what is wrong with American politics.  Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Well good rid-dins.

He was so crooked they will have to screw him into the ground when they bury him.

He was so anti-2nd amendment I could care less about him.

Another Commie-crate gone!

[seez52]

I'm not as kind and reasonable as some are.  Frank Lautenberg was a grandfatherly old man and grandpaw to someone who loved him; and i'm willing to concede and accept that fact.  He was also one of the most dangerous statist sons of Marx that made it way too entirely long (...in my view...) into the twenty-first century.  He and others like him have done this country and its citizens great harm and no one who loves freedom should be sad that he is gone to his reward.
 
Frank Lautenberg was a thoroughly dangerous opportunistic man; and was no friend to this country, freedom, or the Constitution. He could have just as well been decorated with the Order of Lennin for his service to socialism, as he could have been a WW 2 veteran.  As others have opined; i wonder which side he fought on....?
 
His votes, "public service", and belief system gave us people like Barak Obama and this pseudo socialist government we have today. He has pillaged the pockets of citizens, taken their rights, and enriched himself and his sorry associates for many a year.  People like Frank Lautenberg believe that folks like us "delightful rustics' are a rabble to be controlled and serfs to pony up whatever the "ruling elites" demand.   Frank Lautenberg (...and others like him....)  brought old world belief systems and serfdom to the new world.  They believed that they were the "best and brightest" and that the citizenry was a rabble to be controlled and to be made to bow down to these "ruling elites"; just as they have been made to do in New Jersey and New York.  If he had have had his way; the "New Jersey and New York" way would have been made the law of this entire land.
 
Dont be sad that he is dead.  You can be polite to the family; but dont gloss over the truth.  Remember this; everybody blesses us in some way; some by staying and helping, some by leaving.  Thank you Lord that You have called this dangerous man to his reward.
 
leroy

Tell it all brother, tell it all!
Amen

[Mike.357]

I respect what was done during WW2 by my father's generation , but other than that it is very over rated.  Someone previous compiled a pretty good list as to what that generation did.

 

As for who declared war on who it did not matter,  the US was marching towards the sounds of guns.  That generation just happened to be alive at that time.  I firmly believe any generation of American's would have done what they did.  So as far as "greatest generation" I am not so sure. 

 

Lautenberg was a terrible congressman.  And I do feel sorry for his loved one's loss, but I ain't shedding a tear or a second of reflection over his rotting in the ground.

[Guest ThePunisher]

I won't be shedding any tears for another treasonous commie that has been complicit to destroying the best country on earth. Also, I didn't shed any when Teddy croaked, and I won't shed any when a few Rhino's croak.

[Mike.357]

I won't shed a tear when any of them croak.

[JayC]

How did Hitler pose a threat to the United States?  Where are these secret plans to invade the US after taking care of Europe, UK, Russia, Africa?  There is no indication that Hitler had any plans on invading the US, and even if he had, he could have won.  We couldn't have invaded Europe without England being 20 miles off of her coast.  You're talking about a leader who couldn't even manage to invade the UK, let alone move his entire male population over 2000 miles of ocean and then invade us and win.  It's just a fair tale to believe Hitler posed a direct threat to us in the 1940's.  I believe they stepped up and fought a war, and they sacrificed a lot to win that war.  Were there real heroes of that generation YES, without question.  But, our existence was never threatened during WWII not for a single second.

 

Once we had war declared on us, there was no choice left but to win the war, and our grandfathers generation did that in spades, many giving their lives for their brothers in arms, and real heroes stepped forward during that time.  I don't question what they did, or how brave many men were in doing so, only why we did it, and why we lost our way as a nation in the process of doing so.

 

Don't we need to take a look at history not through the lens of a nationalistic coloring book, but through the lens of what really happened and why?  Can we not be a nation that had good men who sacrificed more than should ever have been asked of them, but acknowledge they in many ways sold (or allowed to be sold) the very soul of this country in the process?

 

As for my generation, we did much the same as my grandfathers, we rallied around the flag when attacked on 9/11 and fought 2 wars when asked, never questioning the reasons behind those wars, we allowed a large chunk of our rights and freedoms (mainly because unlike our grandfathers generation many of us didn't know what real freedom was) to be tossed aside in the name of security theater.  

 

How will the story end for us?  Who knows, it will be my generation that works everyday paying 40-50+% taxes and never see a penny of it back.  My generation that will have to shoulder the burden of a crushing debt given to us by our parents and grandfathers generation, trying to hold a country together who has been brought up dependent on the government instead of themselves.

 

Who knows what the future holds, I just know that we tend to highlight the positives and forget about the negatives.  Doesn't mean my grandfathers generation weren't good men, but they weren't perfect either and left us with problems at least as big if not bigger than the ones they faced.

 

What does it matter who declared what?  There was no law that said we had to defend ourselves. That said, if you truly believe that it was our fault that Hitler declared war on us; that even after taking all of Europe and Russia he would have just stopped there then I'd suggest that you don't have a very firm grasp of Hitler, his goals, or the danger he presented to the entire world.

 

You stated that your "grandfather fought in the war and he was a good man, but his generation did enough to screw this country up, it's hard to separate the few good things they did for this country with the awful road they allowed us to be taken down". How could your grandfather be a "good man" if he and every other person part of his generation is responsible for the "awful road" the country has gone down since?

 

If you truly believe the people who fought (including those who died) in WW2 to keep the United States in existence didn't qualify for any acknowledgement because of the bad policies that occurred during that generation then it sounds as if you believe we would have been better off had they either never went to fight in the first place or had lost the war since, apparently, that "awful road" negates their blood and sacrifice in the fields of Europe and the islands of the Pacific.

 

If you want to believe that our WW2 veterans did nothing for us and qualify for no special consideration that's your prerogative but I think you have a very slanted view of what the world was facing at that time.

 

As to the bases; maybe we are there because we still have enemies and trying to hide behind our oceans would be a stupid thing to do???

 

By the way, maybe I just missed it but what great, wonderful and noble things has your generation done for the country???    :rolleyes:

 

[JayC]

Yes because by getting rid of Hitler and Japan, we allowed Mao and Stalin to grow and kill off more than 10 times as many innocent people as Hitler ever did :)

 

Nobody says that getting rid of Hitler was a bad thing, I'm not some big fan of Hitler's, but the last thing we should have done, is in the process of fighting Germany is to become just like the Germany we fought.

 

I suspect that the millions of jews who would have been slaughtered had Hitler prevailed would not agree; not to mention every other "non-Aryan" race. 

 

[RobertNashville]

How did Hitler pose a threat to the United States?  Where are these secret plans to invade the US after taking care of Europe, UK, Russia, Africa?  There is no indication that Hitler had any plans on invading the US, and even if he had, he could have won.  We couldn't have invaded Europe without England being 20 miles off of her coast.  You're talking about a leader who couldn't even manage to invade the UK, let alone move his entire male population over 2000 miles of ocean and then invade us and win.  It's just a fair tale to believe Hitler posed a direct threat to us in the 1940's.  I believe they stepped up and fought a war, and they sacrificed a lot to win that war.  Were there real heroes of that generation YES, without question.  But, our existence was never threatened during WWII not for a single second.

 

Once we had war declared on us, there was no choice left but to win the war, and our grandfathers generation did that in spades, many giving their lives for their brothers in arms, and real heroes stepped forward during that time.  I don't question what they did, or how brave many men were in doing so, only why we did it, and why we lost our way as a nation in the process of doing so.

 

Don't we need to take a look at history not through the lens of a nationalistic coloring book, but through the lens of what really happened and why?  Can we not be a nation that had good men who sacrificed more than should ever have been asked of them, but acknowledge they in many ways sold (or allowed to be sold) the very soul of this country in the process?

 

As for my generation, we did much the same as my grandfathers, we rallied around the flag when attacked on 9/11 and fought 2 wars when asked, never questioning the reasons behind those wars, we allowed a large chunk of our rights and freedoms (mainly because unlike our grandfathers generation many of us didn't know what real freedom was) to be tossed aside in the name of security theater.  

 

How will the story end for us?  Who knows, it will be my generation that works everyday paying 40-50+% taxes and never see a penny of it back.  My generation that will have to shoulder the burden of a crushing debt given to us by our parents and grandfathers generation, trying to hold a country together who has been brought up dependent on the government instead of themselves.

 

Who knows what the future holds, I just know that we tend to highlight the positives and forget about the negatives.  Doesn't mean my grandfathers generation weren't good men, but they weren't perfect either and left us with problems at least as big if not bigger than the ones they faced.

If you truly think that Hitler was no threat to the U.S. then I suggest you spend some time studying history.

 

As to your generation, well...you've done nothing I can see that can be considered wonderful and noble and in fact, all the things you cited as being the fault of the WW2 generation has happened in spades while your generation has been around.

 

If the entire WW2 generation is to be held responsible for legislation passed during their lives and their service to country during our country's gravest threat thrown aside as unimportant or unnecessary then any service to country during your generation's tenure is even less important and your entire generation should then be held responsible for all the trash legislation passed during your tenure.

[RobertNashville]

Yes because by getting rid of Hitler and Japan, we allowed Mao and Stalin to grow and kill off more than 10 times as many innocent people as Hitler ever did :)

 

Nobody says that getting rid of Hitler was a bad thing, I'm not some big fan of Hitler's, but the last thing we should have done, is in the process of fighting Germany is to become just like the Germany we fought.

Well...I guess it just really sucks that you weren't born much earlier so you could have prevented all that.   :rolleyes: 

[Guest 6.8 AR]

That the best you can do?

 

A lot of Hitler's politics was toward telling America to leave him alone by using mostly lies, deception and thug

tactics against European countries and, in the process, acting like he was their savior. A lot of Americans fell

for his ruses. Germany and Japan knew they couldn't win against the US, but if we hadn't intervened they may

have been able to eventually. He made promises and turned around, almost immediately and broke them,

multiple times. All he wanted was complete domination. He would have never stopped.

 

The politics of WWII ended up in the Democrat Party, and while the progressive movement came from the Wilsons

and others like him, they combined to what we have now. That's a strange political landscape to have come from

someone involving Hitler. The sad consequence that really evolved out of WWII was the corruption of our own

political process by co-opting some real devious actors into taking over our own government. On the one hand,

communism became our enemy, and on the other, it became some of our more famous politicians' best friend.

 

We had to fight that war, but if FDR was not the President, things sure would have been different. FDR wasn't

much more than a precursor to the Bloombergs and the Clintons of their times. Wait until Hillary gets in office

and see if that doesn't become obvious.

 

Hitler forever influenced American politics in ways some just don't understand. Maybe one of these days they will.

 

Otherwise, what JayC said. :D

 

as far as those Jews, gypsies and homos, Robert, whatever that comment was meant to say, which I have no idea,

we did what we had to do to end that. did we know all of it in time, though? Maybe, I don't remember, but if you are

saying that to provoke something, I won't bite because I already have stated multitudes that it was one of the most

horrific things Hitler did, and I don't know what else would have changed the event.

 

I stand on what I said, though. Hitler lives on through the Democrat Party, and the progressives alike.

[RobertNashville]

That the best you can do?

 

A lot of Hitler's politics was toward telling America to leave him alone by using mostly lies, deception and thug

tactics against European countries and, in the process, acting like he was their savior. A lot of Americans fell

for his ruses. Germany and Japan knew they couldn't win against the US, but if we hadn't intervened they may

have been able to eventually. He made promises and turned around, almost immediately and broke them,

multiple times. All he wanted was complete domination. He would have never stopped.

 

The politics of WWII ended up in the Democrat Party, and while the progressive movement came from the Wilsons

and others like him, they combined to what we have now. That's a strange political landscape to have come from

someone involving Hitler. The sad consequence that really evolved out of WWII was the corruption of our own

political process by co-opting some real devious actors into taking over our own government. On the one hand,

communism became our enemy, and on the other, it became some of our more famous politicians' best friend.

 

We had to fight that war, but if FDR was not the President, things sure would have been different. FDR wasn't

much more than a precursor to the Bloombergs and the Clintons of their times. Wait until Hillary gets in office

and see if that doesn't become obvious.

 

Hitler forever influenced American politics in ways some just don't understand. Maybe one of these days they will.

 

Otherwise, what JayC said. :D

 

as far as those Jews, gypsies and homos, Robert, whatever that comment was meant to say, which I have no idea,

we did what we had to do to end that. did we know all of it in time, though? Maybe, I don't remember, but if you are

saying that to provoke something, I won't bite because I already have stated multitudes that it was one of the most

horrific things Hitler did, and I don't know what else would have changed the event.

 

I stand on what I said, though. Hitler lives on through the Democrat Party, and the progressives alike.

I'm not trying to provoke anything; I'm simply stating what I believe should be obvious which is that had Hitler not been stopped the millions of Jews he did massacre would have been just a drop in the bucket to what he would have done to the Jews and every other non-Aryan race.

 

I am not at all confident that the allies, U.S. included, could not have been defeated...about six months more breathing room at what became the end of the war to give them time to bring to bear some of the new weapons they were getting ready (such as a more powerful supersonic V2 and jet aircraft) and I believe you would or at least could have seen a very different outcome to the war.  Whether by luck or divine providence, the U.S. developed the bomb first and the German's offensive in December of 1944 was stopped because of some amazing things (Patton disengaging from one major front and moving his whole army in 48 hours to counter the German offensive being for one; not to mention some extremely brave men in Bastogne).  Even the U.S. developing the A-bomb first might not have been enough to save us since I'm not sure we could have developed enough or been willing to use them enough to have actually stopped the Axis powers.

 

Thankfully, we are free to discuss the possibilities rather than, perhaps, living in a different outcome.

Edited June 4, 2013 by RobertNashville

[MacGyver]

My mama taught me not to speak ill of the dead.  So, this is a rare case where I find myself with nothing to say.

 

In light of the way this thread has turned, I found this article compelling last week:

 

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/05/29/the_bomb_didnt_beat_japan_nuclear_world_war_ii?page=0,0

 

When you look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki in comparison to the 68 other cities that had suffered both conventional bombing and firebombing, the atomic bombings may not have really have the game changing impact we attribute to them.  The victor gets to tell the story, I guess.

 

Reading the article nonetheless makes you appreciate the horror that was the war in the Pacific. 

[RobertNashville]

My mama taught me not to speak ill of the dead.  So, this is a rare case where I find myself with nothing to say.

 

In light of the way this thread has turned, I found this article compelling last week:

 

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/05/29/the_bomb_didnt_beat_japan_nuclear_world_war_ii?page=0,0

 

When you look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki in comparison to the 68 other cities that had suffered both conventional bombing and firebombing, the atomic bombings may not have really have the game changing impact we attribute to them.  The victor gets to tell the story, I guess.

 

Reading the article nonetheless makes you appreciate the horror that was the war in the Pacific. 

I would suggest that the psychological impact of the two a-bombs probably had more influence on ending the war in the Pacific than the actual physical damage; great as it was.  Anyway, what one plane and one bomb could do to a city had to have been pretty sobering effect if it was your country/people on the receiving end of that kind of destructive power.

[JayC]

Enlighten me, how exactly was Germany a threat to our nation existence?  Obviously we took two separate history classes in college, because I see no way that Germany was going to even attempt an invasion let alone alone succeed.

 

I do know that FDR ran on a platform that he would never send US troops to die in a European war, all the while plotting and scheming trying to get the US drawn into a war with Germany.   How we violated our neutrality time and time again, trying to draw Germany into attacking us to have an excuse to go to war with them.

 

My generation?  I never said my generation has done anything special, but we're still in our 20's and 30's, the vast majority aren't old enough to be elected President yet...  who knows what my generation will do, probably nothing except work our entire lives to pay for old people to retire in comfort playing golf for the last 30 years of their life, while we're forced to work until we die and never see a penny of the money we paid into a Government backed Ponzi scheme.  And watch as our child and their children are forced to try and pay back 17 trillion dollars (and counting) because we spent the second half of the 20th century trying to build an empire that had our founding fathers rolling in their graves over ;)

 

If you can't tell my tongue is firmly planted against my cheek on the above paragraph...  I'm not trying to say my generation is better than anybody else's, only that we place generations on a pedestal by forgetting what really happened in history.

 

And yes, my generation will own Obamacare, and whatever else we allow the government to do in our names that limits freedom for all future generations. 

 

If you truly think that Hitler was no threat to the U.S. then I suggest you spend some time studying history.

 

As to your generation, well...you've done nothing I can see that can be considered wonderful and noble and in fact, all the things you cited as being the fault of the WW2 generation has happened in spades while your generation has been around.

 

If the entire WW2 generation is to be held responsible for legislation passed during their lives and their service to country during our country's gravest threat thrown aside as unimportant or unnecessary then any service to country during your generation's tenure is even less important and your entire generation should then be held responsible for all the trash legislation passed during your tenure.

 

[RobertNashville]

Enlighten me, how exactly was Germany a threat to our nation existence?  Obviously we took two separate history classes in college, because I see no way that Germany was going to even attempt an invasion let alone alone succeed.

 

I do know that FDR ran on a platform that he would never send US troops to die in a European war, all the while plotting and scheming trying to get the US drawn into a war with Germany.   How we violated our neutrality time and time again, trying to draw Germany into attacking us to have an excuse to go to war with them.

 

My generation?  I never said my generation has done anything special, but we're still in our 20's and 30's, the vast majority aren't old enough to be elected President yet...  who knows what my generation will do, probably nothing except work our entire lives to pay for old people to retire in comfort playing golf for the last 30 years of their life, while we're forced to work until we die and never see a penny of the money we paid into a Government backed Ponzi scheme.  And watch as our child and their children are forced to try and pay back 17 trillion dollars (and counting) because we spent the second half of the 20th century trying to build an empire that had our founding fathers rolling in their graves over ;)

 

If you can't tell my tongue is firmly planted against my cheek on the above paragraph...  I'm not trying to say my generation is better than anybody else's, only that we place generations on a pedestal by forgetting what really happened in history.

 

And yes, my generation will own Obamacare, and whatever else we allow the government to do in our names that limits freedom for all future generations. 

 

If you actually want to learn, don't try to take a shortcut by depending on someone else to enlighten you - there is a plethora of information available covering all aspects of WW2, what led up to it and what happened following it as there is concerning other pivotal moments in our nation's history such as the first civil war (usually called the Revolutionary War), the years following our earning independence and the drafting of our founding documents, the War of 1812, the second civil war, and WW1. All are worthy of your time studying them.

Edited June 4, 2013 by RobertNashville

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Sometimes the History Channel gets it right, and other times wrong.

 

Jay has a pretty good grasp.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Regarding alternate history scenarios, Germany was working on nukes and ICBM's. Japan was working on nukes and cruise missiles. If USA hadn't waded in to WWII, kept its nose out of it, had neglected spending all that money in raising and equipping armies and shipping them off to war-- Anybody please raise a hand if they think that Japan and Germany, after mopping up Europe, Asia and Africa, would have left the western hemisphere alone? :)

 

Hitler showed his overall idiocy for starting the war too soon. He managed to "live in peace" and build up his military "in peace" for several years before invading Poland. If he had stayed quiet a few more years until he had ICBM's and nukes, when the USA and other nations were still building big battleships and flying bi-planes off jokes of tiny aircraft carriers, and the French remained busy interior decorating the Maginot line, then Hitler would have had a much easier job in world domination. Extra dumb points awarded for running off several of the world's best nuclear physicists into the protection of his soon-to-be-enemies.

 

 

Edited June 4, 2013 by Lester Weevils

[Glenn]

What does it matter who declared what?  There was no law that said we had to defend ourselves. That said, if you truly believe that it was our fault that Hitler declared war on us; that even after taking all of Europe and Russia he would have just stopped there then I'd suggest that you don't have a very firm grasp of Hitler, his goals, or the danger he presented to the entire world.

 

You stated that your "grandfather fought in the war and he was a good man, but his generation did enough to screw this country up, it's hard to separate the few good things they did for this country with the awful road they allowed us to be taken down". How could your grandfather be a "good man" if he and every other person part of his generation is responsible for the "awful road" the country has gone down since?

 

If you truly believe the people who fought (including those who died) in WW2 to keep the United States in existence didn't qualify for any acknowledgement because of the bad policies that occurred during that generation then it sounds as if you believe we would have been better off had they either never went to fight in the first place or had lost the war since, apparently, that "awful road" negates their blood and sacrifice in the fields of Europe and the islands of the Pacific.

 

If you want to believe that our WW2 veterans did nothing for us and qualify for no special consideration that's your prerogative but I think you have a very slanted view of what the world was facing at that time.

 

As to the bases; maybe we are there because we still have enemies and trying to hide behind our oceans would be a stupid thing to do???

 

By the way, maybe I just missed it but what great, wonderful and noble things has your generation done for the country???    :rolleyes:

Robert,

There are a lot of thing I disagree with you on, but this thread ain't one of them. Right on.

[JayC]

I can't prove a negative, you make the claim that Germany was a serious threat to the existence of this country...  That they could have invaded and conquered this country in the 1940's and had some plan to do so...  

 

I've never seen anything to back up any of those claims...  so enlighten me, where is your proof, what historical document are you basing your feeling that Germany was a threat to us here in the US in the 1940's.

 

I've read my fair share of history, and there just isn't proof that we had to enter WWII.

 

If you actually want to learn, don't try to take a shortcut by depending on someone else to enlighten you - there is a plethora of information available covering all aspects of WW2, what led up to it and what happened following it as there is concerning other pivotal moments in our nation's history such as the first civil war (usually called the Revolutionary War), the years following our earning independence and the drafting of our founding documents, the War of 1812, the second civil war, and WW1. All are worthy of your time studying them.

 

[Oh Shoot]

I've read my fair share of history, and there just isn't proof that we had to enter WWII.

 

Well, if would have been a pretty tough sell to have remained neutral after a third or whatever of our navy was destroyed in one fell swoop.

 

Unless BHO had been prez.

 

- OS

[RobertNashville]

I can't prove a negative, you make the claim that Germany was a serious threat to the existence of this country...  That they could have invaded and conquered this country in the 1940's and had some plan to do so...  

 

I've never seen anything to back up any of those claims...  so enlighten me, where is your proof, what historical document are you basing your feeling that Germany was a threat to us here in the US in the 1940's.

 

I've read my fair share of history, and there just isn't proof that we had to enter WWII.

And, since he did not prevail, I cannot prove what the future would have held for the U.S. if Hitler had prevailed.

 

In any case, it's not my responsibility to "enlighten you" and even if it were, an internet forum is not the place to do it.

 

I don't mean to miss-characterize your meaning but your statements in this thread seem to endorse the U.S. pursuing a policy of non-intervention no matter the circumstances which I find rather short-sighted.

Edited June 4, 2013 by RobertNashville

[JayC]

FDR knew Japan's Navy was going to attack us hours before they did, and didn't order all of our fleet to sea...  but you're right once we were attacked, we had no choice to go to war...  but that is only part of the story.

 

Why did they attack?  Two reasons, the first led to the second.  When Japan invaded China, we set up an embargo of oil.  This left Japan with less than 2 years of oil left to run their country, so they were forced to look towards the Dutch East Indies to secure a new source of oil.  So they set out to secure this new source, but the Philippine's were in the way... so they attack us at Pearl Harbor in hopes of knocking our navy resources out of the fight, so they could secure oil.

 

So, the reason we had a fight on our hands, is two fold...  we tried to build an empire, by holding territories far from home, violating principles of our founding fathers... and second we tried to embargo oil which violated the warning Washington and Jefferson gave us about entangling alliances..  by picking China over Japan, and selling weapons (and secretly providing men) to one side, while trying to cripple the other side by embargoing of oil.

 

So, yes once they attacked we had no other choice than fight, and win, period.  Why Japan had attacked us at that point doesn't much matter, but if we had stuck to founding principles, we very well might not have been attacked.  But, who knows?

 

 

Well, if would have been a pretty tough sell to have remained neutral after a third or whatever of our navy was destroyed in one fell swoop.

 

Unless BHO had been prez.

 

- OS

 

[JayC]

He had all sorts of plans, invade Russia (crazy), invade the middle east (even more crazy), but he didn't have a plan to invade North or South America.  You're right, 10, 15, 20 years down the line he might have been a threat...  but, why didn't he invade Switzerland then?  If all he wanted was world domination why did he leave Switzerland alone, right next door?  Compared to Russia or the US, Switzerland would have been an easy target.

 

Yes I believe we should go back to an non-intervention policy, countries that stay out of other people's business don't seem to get attacked or invaded on a regular basis.  How is that short sighted?  We've tried nearly 100 years of getting involved all over the globe, how is that working out for us?  How about we try some trade with the world, and keep our noses out of the affairs of other people for a 100 years and see how that works out?  Can it really be worse than the last 100 years?

 

I believe we can continue to be a world superpower, have the the most powerful military in the world here inside the US to protect us from attack, and if people make the mistake of attacking us destroy their civilization back into the stone age...  Without having 900 military bases all over the world, without having to provide billions of dollars in tax payer money to governments who are evil and hostile not only to their own people but are no friend of ours...  just because of 'national security'.

 

Call me crazy, but maybe just maybe it wouldn't hurt to try a little less intervention?

 

And, since he did not prevail, I cannot prove what the future would have held for the U.S. if Hitler had prevailed.

 

In any case, it's not my responsibility to "enlighten you" and even if it were, an internet forum is not the place to do it.

 

I don't mean to miss-characterize your meaning but your statements in this thread seem to endorse the U.S. pursuing a policy of non-intervention no matter the circumstances which I find rather short-sighted.