Let's talk shotguns... I know practically nothing :/

[RichardR]

It's not magic, it's physics.

Spheres lose velocity/energy much more quickly in flight or when penetrating than a pointed cone shape does, I honestly can't believe anyone of reasonable intelligence would even argue this.

Also, "operator error" does not make a weapon any less reliable, seriously wtf?

Loading a shotgun (ie slanking a shell into the tube magazine) isn't even remotely difficult, at least not for someone who can actually manage to slide one of their fingers into one of their nostrels.

Capacity?

Well I guess that depends on how you look at it, is capacity the # of projectiles that can potentially be sent or # of times a trigger can be stroked?, considering a typical 00 buck shell contains 9 pellets & my 590 holds 8+1 shells... that would be 81 projectiles I can send down range before having to reload, or 9 strokes of the trigger.

As far as engaging armored targets? I am guessing most homeowners defending themselves from intruders, won't be doing so against armored ones, however a blast of 00 buck to an armored intruders face would probably be very effective if the need ever did arise.

As far as effective range? No a shotgun loaded with buckshot isn't "done at 40 yds" granted the larger spread on cheaper flat-wadded, non buffered, non-plated 00 buck would be more likely to wound the target instead of cleanly killing it, however premium stuff like Federal 00 buck w/flight control wad, buffered & plated pellets still pattern tight enough that I have *gasp!* used them outdoors to kill large game animals like whitetails & hogs at their "done distance" many many times.

But you do realize most homes do not have rooms/hallways 40 feet from end to end, let alone 40 yards, so why this was injected into a home defense discussion I've no idea.

But I would much rather debate/argue gun stuff than gay boyscouts & such, so I guess I'm happy for the change of topic at least *chuckle*.

These statements seem kinda contradictory.... if the buckshot won't travel or penetrate well, how is it producing the truama? Elfin magic? :P
Modern 5.56 ammuniton has a stellar "street record" of stopping threats.

As for reliablity.... not buying that one either... the pump shotgun is much, much more prone to operator error, particularly under stress. Also, shotgun malfunctions are extremely diffcult to rectify when they do happen.

A tube-fed shotgun can indeed be "topped off" at any time, but so can a magazine-fed rifle, and much less skill is required. Loading a tube-fed shotgun quickly is very difficult to do, again, particularly under stress or while moving. ARs are easy to load, and hold 3-4 times as much ammunition anyway.

Less-lethal options are definitely a point in the shotgun's favor, as are breaching rounds... those are the the two primary uses for the shotgun in combat.

Where the rifle really shines is in precision at all ranges. Remember, you're responsible for every projectile you send downrange, and every one of them is going to hit something. Inside of 10 yards, sure a 00 shell will probably keep all nine pellets inside COM of the target, but at that range with an AR you can literally pick which eye you want to hit. At 25 yards, 00 is getting marginal for keeping all pellets on a man-sized targets, but you're still in easy headshot/heart shot range with the rifle. At 40 yards, the shotgun is pretty much done, unless you're shooting slugs, and the rifle is still capable of headshot precision. If good guys are around, the rifle gives you much more flexibilty to engage the bad gys than buckshot at any range.

Another advantage of the rifle over the shotgun is the armored threat. Practically all soft body armor stops 00 buck cold. A rifle can defeat soft armor easily, and even trauma plates are much easier to shott "around" with a rifle than a shotgun.

That's my salvo for now. :up:

[RichardR]

Of course I am...I've said 5.56 HD ammo...ammo manufactured specifically for home defense purposes; surely no one though I was talking about perpetrator ammo??? :)

I'm sorry, I must have missed/overlooked it.

Tons of stuff going on here at the house today, (my youngest daughter is home for her Spring Break) so I'm sort of distracted.

Anyway yea fragnible ammo is good stuff for HD, regular FMJ's though are a no-go around here, too many neighbor houses too close to risk it.

[dcloudy777]

Also, "operator error" does not make a weapon any less reliable, seriously wtf?

 

 

Of course it does... if you pullt the trigger and get no bang... does it really matter whether it was your fault or the guns?  Any gun is just part of a "weapon system", with the most important part being the operator.  When taken as a complete system, the AR + user is at least asreliable than a pump shotgun + user.  Pump guns get short-stroked a lot under stress, and movies notwithstanding, are single-shots if you don't have both hands free.

 

And buckshot sails right through interior walls no problem.  If it didn't it wouldn't stop fights.  Sure rifle rounds will go through more walls, but also have a much better chance of being stopped by the intended target.

 

As for range not being an issue... better to have and not need.  And if you're using buckshot to stop a threat at ranges greater than 40 yards, I hope there's no bystanders around, and you have good cover.  And the threat is standing pretty still in the open.  :devil:

 

As for the capacity issue... shooting a lot of projectiles with each pull of the trigger cuts both ways... sure you get 81 pellets, but you only get to aim 9 times... rememeber, every piece of lead is gonna hit something, and you've signed for it.

 

Armored threats are (thunkfully), not likely, but the rifle will certianly deal with them better.  What will the shotgun do better?

 

   Still having fun though, and hey, it quit raining!   :up:

Edited June 5, 2013 by dcloudy777

[TMF]

[ What will the shotgun do better?

Cost only 300 bucks, have the option of different length barrels and different loads for everything from killing home invaders to killing clays. Every house should have a 12 GA. Granted, every house should have a military style rifle, but that is for a different reason entirely.

[Trekbike]

For what it's worth, if you told me that I'd be placed in an ensconced position and possibly only had one shot to stop an intruder, I'd choose my shotgun, YMMV.

[RichardR]

Welp, yanking the pump backwards until it stops & then pushing forward until it stops isn't exactly rocket science, nor does it make the weapon inherently unreliable if the operator is neither mentally &/or physically incapable of operating it.

Heck I wasn't even aware that "short-stroking" a pump shot gun was even an issue (at least not for most adults), I've never personally "short stroked" a pump shotgun, at least not that I can ever recall.

Anyway I never claimed that 00 buck wouldn't penetrate interior or exterior walls, I just commented that the fired spherical buckshot runs out of energy very quickly while doing so, heck it runs out of energy very quickly even if it doesn't have to spend any of it's energy penetrating anything.

But why do you believe that a shotgunner's target have to be standing still @ 40 yards for buckshot to be effective? It's the spread of the pellets that makes shotguns excel at engaging fast moving targets, they literally "cast a net" of hot piercing lead, granted the more pellets that "hit" the more energy that is delivered.

Bystanders & backstops are a consideration regardless of what type of firearm that is being fired, but at least with shotguns you don't have to be as worried about anything beyond a couple hundred yards at best, instead of say with a bullet fired from a rifle or a pistol where everything within a couple of miles behind the target could be hit by a stray/errent round!

Capacity, as in the # of shots in a weapon's magazine needs to be 30+ or you're going to die ... well than my guess iffin your having to aim & fire more than a pump shot gun is capable of holding in a self/home-defense scenario, you're probably an actor in a Hollywood movie.

The vast majority of engagements in "real-life" SD/HD scenarios are typicially a couple of rounds fired at most, I highly doubt anyone but the most determined professional or crazed killer (or even a large pack of either) is going stick around for a prolonged fire-fight.

I'm not saying that folks shouldn't be prepared for "the ultimate SHTF shoot-out" scenario, but let's be honest here, it's not very likely.

Anyway I'd much rather discuss guns than politics, so thanks!

Of course it does... if you pullt the trigger and get no bang... does it really matter whether it was your fault or the guns? Any gun is just part of a "weapon system", with the most important part being the operator. When taken as a complete system, the AR + user is at least asreliable than a pump shotgun + user. Pump guns get short-stroked a lot under stress, and movies notwithstanding, are single-shots if you don't have both hands free.

And buckshot sails right through interior walls no problem. If it didn't it wouldn't stop fights. Sure rifle rounds will go through more walls, but also have a much better chance of being stopped by the intended target.

As for range not being an issue... better to have and not need. And if you're using buckshot to stop a threat at ranges greater than 40 yards, I hope there's no bystanders around, and you have good cover. And the threat is standing pretty still in the open. :devil:

As for the capacity issue... shooting a lot of projectiles with each pull of the trigger cuts both ways... sure you get 81 pellets, but you only get to aim 9 times... rememeber, every piece of lead is gonna hit something, and you've signed for it.

Armored threats are (thunkfully), not likely, but the rifle will certianly deal with them better. What will the shotgun do better?

Still having fun though, and hey, it quit raining! :up:

[RobertNashville]

Welp, yanking the pump backwards until it stops & then pushing forward until it stops isn't exactly rocket science, nor does it make the weapon inherently unreliable if the operator is neither mentally &/or physically incapable of operating it.
 

Pointing the firery death hole end of a pistol at a target, pulling the trigger and hitting the target isn't rocket science either yet people screw that up all the time, even not under stress...add real stress to the situation and it happens a lot more.

 

Remove pistol and insert shotgun and you get the exact same thing; in the case of shotguns, stress will often materialize as short-stroking the gun

 

I think the other caution with shotguns is that a lot of people just assume that they know how to operate one in a life and death self-defense situation...people need to go through training on using a shotgun as a home defense weapon at least as much as they need training on their other weapons. Unfortunately the shotgun often gets overlooked or pushed to the back of the training "to do" list

. 

[dcloudy777]

Properly cycling a pump shotugun is easy in your living room, one the range, or even the dove field. Add in a bit of stress, time pressure, sweat, blood, or pants-pooping fear.... It becomes a bit tougher. Between law enforcement training and 3-gun/tactical shotgun matches, I'd conservatively estimate that I've run at least 30,000 rounds through a pump shotgun, and watched another 100,000 get shot through one (some by some of the best shooters in the world). Short strokes absolutely happen. Under-lifter jams absolutely happen. Missing absolutely happens.

[RichardR]

Properly cycling a pump shotugun is easy in your living room, one the range, or even the dove field. Add in a bit of stress, time pressure, sweat, blood, or pants-pooping fear.... It becomes a bit tougher. Between law enforcement training and 3-gun/tactical shotgun matches, I'd conservatively estimate that I've run at least 30,000 rounds through a pump shotgun, and watched another 100,000 get shot through one (some by some of the best shooters in the world). Short strokes absolutely happen. Under-lifter jams absolutely happen. Missing absolutely happens.

Meh, you seriously can't expect me to believe that pump-action shotguns are so prone to operator error that they shouldn't be used for home-defense because they are in essence "unreliable".

Especially when I have seen no evidence of this myself in the 30+ some odd years that I've been shooting pump shotguns both recreationally & competively?

I'm not saying that it couldn't happen, I just haven't ever personally seen it (aside from small children & a frail elderly woman do it that is).

I'd go so far in saying that even an otherwise physically fit one-armed man can successfully cycle the action on a pump-action shotgun 99 times out of 100 ...

[RichardR]

Everyone should train on whatever weapon they intend to use, failure of the operator to do so is the operators, not the weapons fault.

Of course this doesn't apply to situations where it is a mixture of both, for instance the homeowner who buys a $40 "Jamming Jenny", takes it home, loads it up & tosses it into their dresser drawer, without ever testing it or learning how to shoot it ..

Pointing the firery death hole end of a pistol at a target, pulling the trigger and hitting the target isn't rocket science either yet people screw that up all the time, even not under stress...add real stress to the situation and it happens a lot more.

Remove pistol and insert shotgun and you get the exact same thing; in the case of shotguns, stress will often materialize as short-stroking the gun

I think the other caution with shotguns is that a lot of people just assume that they know how to operate one in a life and death self-defense situation...people need to go through training on using a shotgun as a home defense weapon at least as much as they need training on their other weapons. Unfortunately the shotgun often gets overlooked or pushed to the back of the training "to do" list
.

[RobertNashville]

Meh, you seriously can't expect me to believe that pump-action shotguns are so prone to operator error that they shouldn't be used for home-defense because they are in essence "unreliable".

Especially when I have seen no evidence of this myself in the 30+ some odd years that I've been shooting pump shotguns both recreationally & competively?

I'm not saying that it couldn't happen, I just haven't ever personally seen it (aside from small children & a frail elderly woman do it that is).

I'd go so far in saying that even an otherwise physically fit one-armed man can successfully cycle the action on a pump-action shotgun 99 times out of 100 ...

I've read though his (dcloudy777) post multiple times and I can't find where he said anything remote close to "shotguns are so prone to operator error that they shouldn't be used for home-defense because they are in essence unreliable".

 

I don't believe anyone in this thread has said that a shotgun is either unreliable or ineffective (with proper ammo, aiming and understanding its limitations) but to deny that there are other and perhaps even much better alternatives out there is a bit short sighted.

 

If you only want a shotgun for HD go for it...no one is saying you can't or shouldn't do so.

Edited June 6, 2013 by RobertNashville

[dcloudy777]

I've read though his (dcloudy777) post multiple times and I can't find where he said anything remote close to "shotguns are so prone to operator error that they shouldn't be used for home-defense because they are in essence unreliable".

 

 

Thanks... I'm not saying that the shotgun is a "bad" tool for defensive use... it's pretty good.  I just think that the autoloading rifle, in particular the AR-pattern gun, is a better one. 

[RichardR]

Thanks... I'm not saying that the shotgun is a "bad" tool for defensive use... it's pretty good. I just think that the autoloading rifle, in particular the AR-pattern gun, is a better one.

Your main arguement against using a shotgun, in favor of the AR platform (correct me if I am wrong) was essentially "operator error, ie: short-stroking" of a pump action?

With additional "capacity, over-penetration, etc" supportive ancillary arguements?

Like I said I was & am kind of distracted with my young one here at the house, so I'm trying to keep up as much as possible.

[dcloudy777]

Your main arguement against using a shotgun, in favor of the AR platform (correct me if I am wrong) was essentially "operator error, ie: short-stroking" of a pump action?

With additional "capacity, over-penetration, etc" supportive ancillary arguements?

Like I said I was & am kind of distracted with my young one here at the house, so I'm trying to keep up as much as possible.

 

No, my main argument was the increased precision that the rifle affords.  Just for posterity, I'll group some of my rifle "advantages into three categories:

 

Most important:  precision targeting, easier to learn to use, faster follow-up shots/multiple targets

 

Somewhat important:  higher ammo capacity, easier to reload, longer useful range

 

Not as important:  defeats armor, easier to use with one hand not free

[Jonnin]

No, my main argument was the increased precision that the rifle affords.  Just for posterity, I'll group some of my rifle "advantages into three categories:

 

Most important:  precision targeting, easier to learn to use, faster follow-up shots/multiple targets

 

Somewhat important:  higher ammo capacity, easier to reload, longer useful range

 

Not as important:  defeats armor, easier to use with one hand not free

 

Many of these seem strange to me. 

 

Talking home defense, you list things like range (dunno where you live but if they are more than 20 yards away they get a SEP field (someone else's problem) cause they are robbing the neighbor, not me.  I mean, I will help, but I am not going to bust out my sniper rifle and pick them off, I am gonna call the cops and keep my eyes open.   You list defeating armor, which exactly 0.000000000001% of home invaders tend to wear.   One handed use: ok, maybe, but I would take my pistol over either one if I had only 1 arm.   Faster follow up shots?  well my shottie is semi auto so the issue there is just recoil.  It recoils more because it is more powerful....   ease of use?  About the same, you pull the trigger; both have the same (one button off) safety. 

 

Really the AR has capacity (of weaker ammo) and ease of reloading (very important, but after 11 rounds of shotgun, I will NY reload to pistol if anything is still trying to get at me).   It has those advantages for sure.  Anything else seems like, at best, minor "advantages" and closer to "differences". 

[Oh Shoot]

I see what you are saying.  The table doesn’t specifically say that buckshot is illegal, it just doesn’t say it is legal.  In fact, buckshot isn’t really mentioned, at all.  My guess is this is an oversight more than anything else as I seem to recall (although my memory may be faulty) that the reg’s book has been much more clear, in the past, that only slugs/solid balls are legal for deer hunting with a shotgun.

 

Of course, there is also a chance that the regs have changed.  I was kind of surprised when they dropped the four inch minimum required for a handgun length last year (but that probably had a lot to do with it being legal for HCP holders to have their carry weapon on them while hunting.)  I will be interested to see what kind of response you get to the email.

 

Got reply and indeed no buckshot. I suggested in reply that that clarify the info on the referencing page and also in the PDF Hunting Guide, which says same thing:

 

"Buckshot is illegal for hunting anything in TN.  Shotguns with rifled slugs are legal for hunting deer, bear and elk. Shotguns with #4 shot or smaller are legal for hunting turkey.

 

Steve Nifong

Lt. Colonel, Boating and Law Enf. Div."

 

I pretty much thought it was illegal, but I haven't hunted deer since my youth, and most folks don't know it's legal to go after deer and bear with a .25acp mouse gun now, so thought maybe it had changed too.

 

- OS

Edited June 6, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[RichardR]

No, my main argument was the increased precision that the rifle affords. Just for posterity, I'll group some of my rifle "advantages into three categories:

Most important: precision targeting, easier to learn to use, faster follow-up shots/multiple targets

Somewhat important: higher ammo capacity, easier to reload, longer useful range

Not as important: defeats armor, easier to use with one hand not free

Okdokie, thanks now we are on the same page.

1.) Increased precision, we are still talking about home defense scenarios right?

I'd be my educated presupposition that anyone capable of "scoring a COM hit" with a rifle on a home invader at typical home defense ranges, would also be capable of "scoring a COM hit" on that same target with a shotgun at the same range of distance from the target.

Unless of course we are not talking about typical home defense ranges, at which the rifle would definately be a better asset, especially the greater the distance was to the target.

2.) AR's are easier to learn to operate, than pump action shotguns.

This will probably come as no surprise, but again I disagree with this assertion, with pump shotguns the procedure is so simplistic that almost anyone, who has never handled one, can figure it out by themselves in a matter of a few minutes.

I've seen guys who just bought their first AR's sit & struggle trying to figure out how to charge the darn things, since the charging handle isn't where "its supposed to be" w/regards to other rifles that they've seen/owned..(or what the forward assist button does, etc).

Granted neither is acceptable, I personally believe that everyone should train regularly with their defensive weapons until everything about the weapon's operation becomes instinctive, but most folks in my experience already seem to know instinctively that they have to yank the pump back & push it forward again on a pump action shotgun ...

3.) Faster follow up shots.

Ya got me there! A semi-auto AR can definately fire more individual cartridges more often/quickly than a pump shotgun can, unless of course we count the # of projectiles being sent down range, because if we count the # of projectiles even a highly trained operator firing a full-auto AR would have difficulty beating an inbred hill-billy with an 8+1 capacity pump shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot.

The other more minor points I've already addressed but I think if you are more comfortable with an AR then that is what you should use, I'm not saying that an AR (loaded with fragnible ammo) is a bad or the wrong choice, only that the reasons listed seemed a bit odd.

[RobertNashville]

One pump shotgun that I can cycle in a about 1 second with four or maybe 7 rounds is fine for one intruder...its capabilities start to get taxed if you've got a couple of intruders...any more intruders than that and it really starts to become inadequate.

 

For accuracy, effectiveness, safety, ease of use, ammo capacity, cycling time round to round and many other reasons, I'll take a semi-auto platform using 5.56 NATO and 27 rounds (not to mention I can reload and have 27 more in less time than most anyone can fully recharge a shotgun) over a shotgun any day.  That's especially true if one already HAS an AR or similar platform and is then considering buying a shotgun specifically for HD purposes (which I think is the OP's situation)...that money would probably be much better spent buying ammo or training. Or, do like I do and have one of each (shotgun on one side of the bed, the rifle on the other).

 

Now, if I already had a shotgun I wouldn't go out and by an AR just for HD but I think the AR platform is simply better. Perhaps more importantly, those who train others and those who have used both weapon systems in real-world situations seem to also feel the AR/5.56 platform is the better overall choice.

[Rowdy]

OK, y'all have beaten this horse past death. The OP has already decided on a shotgun; not which is better. Now go discuss something less contentious, like open carry vs concealed carry.

[Trekbike]

Now go discuss something less contentious, like open carry vs concealed carry.

I was thinking more like allowing gays in the boy scouts.

[RichardR]

I was thinking more like allowing gays in the boy scouts.

Meh I like disagreeing on topics in which the people I'm disagreeing with don't resort to calling me names, like homophobe &/or a bigot.

I think maybe that's why those sorts of "labels/names" were invented & promoted as the single worst thing a person could ever be, to prevent folks from disagreeing on certain topics, sort of making it a one-sided affair.

Regardless of any indisputable facts, or a well spoken/stated personal opinion on one of those sorts of topics, once a person has a racist, bigot, homophobe, etc label slapped on them, they are not only "wrong" but they are also the worstest person in the world.

At least when arguing about guns no-one is eventually compared or equated to Hitler... wait, what?

[Guest whamonkey]

I'm mentioning this again because it bears repeating. Has anyone fired an AR without hearing protection at the range, let alone inside a house?

Permanent hearing loss would be my guess.

[TMF]

I'm mentioning this again because it bears repeating. Has anyone fired an AR without hearing protection at the range, let alone inside a house?

Permanent hearing loss would be my guess.

Yes, quite a bit along with a lot of other loud, damaging noises. Not too bad hearing loss but terrible tinnitus. I had an AK fired with the muzzle a few inches from my right ear. I assume that is the cause of most of the damage since I have the most hearing loss in that ear. A few shots in a house in a self defense shoot isn't that big of a deal though. Maaayyybe some hearing loss, but probably so negligible that it won't make a difference and shouldn't be something to keep you from using it to stay alive. In the moment it won't even bother you due to the adrenaline, trust me.

[Rowdy]

I'm mentioning this again because it bears repeating. Has anyone fired an AR without hearing protection at the range, let alone inside a house? Permanent hearing loss would be my guess.

What does this have to do with the OP?

[RobertNashville]

I'm mentioning this again because it bears repeating. Has anyone fired an AR without hearing protection at the range, let alone inside a house?

Permanent hearing loss would be my guess.

Have you ever fired a shotgun inside the confines of your bedroom or house?

 

Have you ever fired ANY firearm inside the confines of a house?

 

I'd take permanent hearing loss any day over being dead if I have to but I don't intend to have that problem because, at least if I'm responding to an after bedtime break in, whether I'm picking up my shotgun or my AR I'm ALSO picking up my amplified hearing protection for 1) protect my hearing and 2) amplify any sounds the bad guy(s) might make.