Let's talk shotguns... I know practically nothing :/

[Garufa]

There's been some pretty good info being shared here.  But your AR (provided it's a reliable gun), is as good or better a defensive tool in every measurable category.  Shotguns are for hunting, shooting three-gun and tactical shotgun matches, and for turning into short-barreled shotguns so you can show them off and play at the range.  Rifles are just better... an AR15-type rifle can do everything (from an anti-personnel standpoint) that a shotgun can do, and a whole lot more.

The shotgun, while indeed a powerful weapon, has limited ammunition capacity, limited range, and is the most diificult weapon system to learn how to "fight" effectively.

 

  DanO

 

This simply is not true. 

 

I imagine there a a sound reason shotguns are included in three-gun and tactical shotgun matches.  Maybe because they are one of the most viable self-defense weapons available?

Edited June 4, 2013 by Garufa

[Guest glocklocker19]

Great suggestions all! Thank you all so much. 

 

Dan, I think there are a whole lot of ground troops that would disagree with your statement that is in bold.  The shotgun has a long standing history of use in about all wars for trench, urban, CQB.......especially in Iraq and Afhganastan.

 

 

This simply is not true. 

 

I imagine there a a sound reason shotguns are included in three-gun and tactical shotgun matches.  Maybe because they are one of the most viable self-defense weapons available?

 

I was fortunate enough to never see a battlefield during my time in the USAF, so I can't offer my own opinion on this, but having see what a shotgun does it didn't take long to convince me that it would be a good weapon to protect my family, myself, and my property. My little brother served 9 years in the Navy and participated in counter-terrorism in the Gulf back in '05. He boarded many ships with an MP5 and Remington 870 shortie, and thankfully while he never saw combat, he swears by them as well. In fact, he's the one that taught me to shoot it on Memorial Day weekend, I knew I would love that kid for something when he grew up lol.  

 

I love my AR, and I would certainly depend my life on it as I have that much confidence in that platform as well as my particular AR as a whole, but that shotgun was way fun to shoot and I will undoubtedly have one soon. I'm also of the opinion that the best weapon is the one your comfortable with and that you and the weapon have a respect for each other :) I hope in this lifetime that I am in a situation where I have to put that theory to test, but if I do, I hope to live through it! 

Edited June 5, 2013 by glocklocker19

[wjh2657]

I own many Mossberg 500 shotguns (all gauges but 28 and 16) but my HD mainline defense is a Maverick 88. Also, don't let anybody tell you can't find accessories to customize it. Check out "You don't belong here" below. Bead is also glow in the dark for night.

 

Edited June 5, 2013 by wjh2657

[RichardR]

Shotguns own CQB, no if's, &'s, or but .. but .. but's, about it.

[Oh Shoot]

Just to avoid confusion for those asking questions who say they know 'next to nothing' about shotguns, I want to point out that using a choke and achieving a tight pattern for hunting deer is moot in TN as buckshot is not legal for taking deer in this state.  Unless the rules have changed drastically in the last year or two, slugs are the only option for legally taking deer with a shotgun in Tennessee.  Seems kind of odd in a way - after all, it is called 'buckshot'.

 

Looks to me like all sizes of buckshot is legal. Only shot  banned for deer, bear, or elk is:

 

- "Shotguns (including muzzleloading shotguns) using ammunition loaded with Number Four (4) or smaller shot"

 

- "Shotguns (including muzzleloading shotguns) using ammunition loaded with T shot (0.20 inch diameter) or smaller"

 

http://www.tn.gov/twra/huntweapons.html

 

 

- OS

Edited June 5, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[chances R]

NOpe, buckshot is not legal in TN for deer.  The above post does not include the part where it labels 'single ball' as being legal. 

[RobertNashville]

It's my understanding (I have seen no official figures to back it up) that over the past decade or so, many LE agencies have switched from a shotgun to an AR/5.56 platform when entering a home/clearing a home in a tactical situation.  Part of the reason is that with the proper ammo, the 5.56 is far less prone to over-penetration than a shotgun and MUCH less prone to over-penetration than almost any handgun round (I have seen many videos of tests using a typical home setup with dry wall, etc and loads starting with .32 pistol round up through the 5.56 rifle round).  Other advantages is that for most people, ans AR is more accurate, easier to shoot, less recoil and if you get a good hit, is pretty devastating to the recipient.

 

As far as I can tell, the only real drawback to using an AR is jury perception.  I was a bit shocked to learn in our seminar this past December (thank you Chip Cain) that studies have been done that clearly shows that juries tend to "dislike" ARs in SD shootings; apparently the perception that the AR is too mean. :)  So...if you ever do have to defend yourself and us an AR to do it and are charged, it might be a bit of a problem.  I'm not sure, however, that such a possibility is sufficient reason to not use an AR if you have one. ;)

 

I'm not taking anything away from the shotgun for HD purposes, and in fact I have on dedicated to that very purpose, but I would suggest that it's not the only great choice out there. Plus, as was pointed out, if you already have an AR there is little reason to "need" to go out and get a shotgun for HD..

[chances R]

In a HD situation, and especially in an apartment, would you prefer your neighbor to fire off a few rounds of 5.56 or a few rounds of #6 shotgun shells?

[RobertNashville]

In a HD situation, and especially in an apartment, would you prefer your neighbor to fire off a few rounds of 5.56 or a few rounds of #6 shotgun shells?

5.56 for the reasons cited above

[Guest whamonkey]

My go to HD weapon is a Remington 870 Express Synthetic 18, loaded up with 00 buckshot....proven, tested, and 100% reliable. As far as an AR and penetration? No way in hell that a .223 penetrates less than buckshot. ALSO....Has anyone here uncorked an AR inside a house at night without hearing protection? Screw that. Your ears will be ringing for a month.

Police departments are moving to the AR platform because it's more firepower in a smaller package. With the collapsible stock the weapon is great for sweep and clear, especially with an Aimpoint. For a strictly defensive weapon there is no greater choice than a shotgun. I think you'll find the overwhelming consensus agrees on this. Edited June 5, 2013 by whamonkey

[chances R]

Believe what you want, but .223 will penetrate much more than #6 shot. This is from my own, fairly extensive shotgun experience. #6 is not nearly the man stopper, but at short-range HD situations is much 'safer' as far as wall penetration and will be very convincing in stopping an attack. The previous reasons noted for LE use is a different situation than HD.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

[Oh Shoot]

NOpe, buckshot is not legal in TN for deer.  The above post does not include the part where it labels 'single ball' as being legal. 

 

Single ball/slugs is not in question,.

 

It does not show shot of any size over .20" as illegal. All buckshot is over .20". If the .20" is not pertinent, why not simply state all shot shells?

 

I emailed them, they have responded promptly in the past. Last time it was about an obvious error on one of their pages, which they corrected, so we'll see.

 

- OS

Edited June 5, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[chances R]

I think they did it that way to fit their table to illustrate and fit their small game regs. It does not specify as to buckshot but has done so in the past. Maybe it does in the full regs

[Jamie Jackson]

Just to avoid confusion for those asking questions who say they know 'next to nothing' about shotguns, I want to point out that using a choke and achieving a tight pattern for hunting deer is moot in TN as buckshot is not legal for taking deer in this state.  Unless the rules have changed drastically in the last year or two, slugs are the only option for legally taking deer with a shotgun in Tennessee.  Seems kind of odd in a way - after all, it is called 'buckshot'.

 

Good point JAB.

 

My frame of reference is from my deer and hog hunting youth in the swamps and marshes of south Mississippi. At 15-25 yds it was highly effective. I haven't had the opportunity to hunt deer in TN...yet... :pleased:

 

 

 

To all: As regards to home defense: I keep and AR and my Mossy handy. At in home distances, 10-12 yds is a relatively long shot. As I referenced previously, working within the "A" zone capabilities of a shotgun (aimed like a rifle), buckshot has a profound impact (pun intended) on it's target.

I have cared for folks shot with # 6 or 8 shot from about 5-7 feet...very nasty, and buckshot from 8-10 feet...again very nasty...But it all depends on target area struck, and vital organs penetrated, as to the end result.

 

That being said, most people, with reasonable training, can hit more accurately and quickly (multiple shots) using a carbine (AR/AK). Current training dictates a NSR (Non Standard Response) of 3-5 shots at the center of whatever target is presented for the carbine platform. But I'm going off on a tangent...

 

imho...A shotgun is a formidable home defense weapon. As Col. Cooper's Rule # 4 states: [i]Be sure of your target and what's beyond it[/i]. This applies to shotties and carbines...both have their place in our home defense battery.

 

:2cents:

[RobertNashville]

Believe what you want, but .223 will penetrate much more than #6 shot. This is from my own, fairly extensive shotgun experience. #6 is not nearly the man stopper, but at short-range HD situations is much 'safer' as far as wall penetration and will be very convincing in stopping an attack. The previous reasons noted for LE use is a different situation than HD.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

My experience tells me otherwise as does dozens of tests I've seen as does about 50 years of shooting shotguns including doing some of my own (admittedly "unscientific") tests - we'll just have to disagree.  ;)

 

5.56 HD ammo may penetrate more than no 6 shot as I've never used no 6 for HD but I don't want convincing; I want something that I can be sure will stop the threat and do so at as great a distance as possible.

 

When you add in other benefits of a AR.

• Easier to aim
• Easier to shoot
• Less recoil
• MUCH more capacity
• Easier and faster to reload

to name some of them.

 

Again, I'm not dissing the venerable shotgun as a HD weapon but I think the usefulness of the AR platform (or something similar in my case) becomes clear; especially if one already has one (meaning no real need to go out and by a SG specifically for HD).

 

My apologies to the OP for hijacking the thread...signing off now. :)

Edited June 5, 2013 by RobertNashville

[dcloudy777]

Anything smaller than #4 Buckshot (and that's marginal) is a very, very, very bad idea.  Simply put.. if it won't penetrate drywall, how in the world is it going to stop a threat?  A fellow that goes by the handle of Old Painless has done an incredible job of testing, here is his site:

 

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

 

And I completely stand by my statement that 5.56mm autoloading rifle beats shotgun in the defensive role.  Hits to vital areas win fights, and the AR makes those hits faster, more precisely, at much longer ranges, and with much less operator skill involved than the shotgun.  I'm no tac ninja operator, but I have been in a scrape or two, and have fired thousands of rounds from handguns, rifles, shotguns, subguns, and squirt guns.  I've shot a boat load of three-gun, and done quite a bit or "real-world" oriented training.  The rifle beats all... it's not really even close. 

 

But I love the discussion.  And I do have to admit that shotgun matches are crazy fun.  :up:

 

DanO

[chances R]

Well there you have it...........that's why there are blondes, brunettes, and redheads.

[JAB]

Single ball/slugs is not in question,.

 

It does not show shot of any size over .20" as illegal. All buckshot is over .20". If the .20" is not pertinent, why not simply state all shot shells?

 

I emailed them, they have responded promptly in the past. Last time it was about an obvious error on one of their pages, which they corrected, so we'll see.

 

- OS

 

I see what you are saying.  The table doesn’t specifically say that buckshot is illegal, it just doesn’t say it is legal.  In fact, buckshot isn’t really mentioned, at all.  My guess is this is an oversight more than anything else as I seem to recall (although my memory may be faulty) that the reg’s book has been much more clear, in the past, that only slugs/solid balls are legal for deer hunting with a shotgun.

 

Of course, there is also a chance that the regs have changed.  I was kind of surprised when they dropped the four inch minimum required for a handgun length last year (but that probably had a lot to do with it being legal for HCP holders to have their carry weapon on them while hunting.)  I will be interested to see what kind of response you get to the email.

 

With the confusing hunting regs we have in this state, if they reply that buckshot is okay, I'd want to print that email and carry the printout with me if using buckshot to hunt.  Several years ago, it was unclear as to whether or not it was legal to use treble hooks for catching catfish.  The reg book wasn't clear on the subject so I emailed TWRA.  The response was that they are, indeed, legal so I printed out that email and kept it in my tackle box, just in case.

Edited June 5, 2013 by JAB

[RichardR]

The physics of a sphere (as in a shotgun's round pellet) does not lend very well to penetration or even for "flight" for that matter.

But hey I guess physics don't apply to some people.

Anyway my 30ish some-odd years of shooting shotguns gives me vast amounts of confidence in a few things, first is their ability to dish aout a tremendous amount of trauma at close range with a single trigger stroke, this is especially true when using 00 buckshot.

Second I am extremely familiar with how quickly fired shot, even the larger 00 buckshot runs out of energy, so even without the pellets expending energy penetrating any barriers I know that any shot fired out of one of my shotguns is less likely to reach my neighbors homes.

Third is a pump shotgun's reliability, especially my Mossberg 590/500 series shotguns, I have been using them for years in some of the nastiest weather and conditions & they've never failed me.

Fourth has to be the fact they (tube magazine shotguns) can be reloaded at anytime, ie: you can top them off by slanking in a shell or two during momentary lulls in the fighting, without having to take the weapon momentarily out of action by dropping the empty mag & reinserting another full one.

Fifth, less lethal options ... rocksalt, beanbags, rubber balls, even 12g taser rounds are now availible.

Granted the laws down here in TN are not favorable to homeowners employing less lethal options, seems like they'd rather you use regular buckshot iffin "deadly force is justified" or you'll be charged or something because by using less lethal options "deadly force couldn't have possibly been justified". (What's the deal with this btw?)

Sixth again has to do with being wrongfully charged, a homeowner employing a shotgun for home defense is not unusual or scary, however a lot of folks, especially ones who tend to vote democrat ... be they responding or investigating officers, district attornies, potential jurors, could believe that only military/police should own "assault weapons" & a civilian who dares to use one obviously did so because they were looking for an excuse to use it.

As silly as that sounds to us, some folks do actually believe that sort of nonsense, anyway out of time for now.

[RobertNashville]

The physics of a sphere (as in a shotgun's round pellet) does not lend very well to penetration or even for "flight" for that matter.

But hey I guess physics don't apply to some people.

Anyway my 30ish some-odd years of shooting shotguns gives me vast amounts of confidence in a few things, first is their ability to dish aout a tremendous amount of trauma at close range with a single trigger stroke, this is especially true when using 00 buckshot.

Second I am extremely familiar with how quickly fired shot, even the larger 00 buckshot runs out of energy, so even without the pellets expending energy penetrating any barriers I know that any shot fired out of one of my shotguns is less likely to reach my neighbors homes....
 

You can argue the physics of it if you wish but there are plenty of actual, controlled experiments that show that 5.56 for HD will not penetrate as far as  buckshot shotgun loads.

Edited June 5, 2013 by RobertNashville

[dcloudy777]

The physics of a sphere (as in a shotgun's round pellet) does not lend very well to penetration or even for "flight" for that matter.


Anyway my 30ish some-odd years of shooting shotguns gives me vast amounts of confidence in a few things, first is their ability to dish aout a tremendous amount of trauma at close range with a single trigger stroke, this is especially true when using 00 buckshot.
 

 

These statements seem kinda contradictory.... if the buckshot won't travel or penetrate well, how is it producing the truama?  Elfin magic?  :P

Modern 5.56 ammuniton has a stellar "street record" of stopping threats.

 

As for reliablity.... not buying that one either... the pump shotgun is much, much more prone to operator error, particularly under stress.  Also, shotgun malfunctions are extremely diffcult to rectify when they do happen.

 

A tube-fed shotgun can indeed be "topped off" at any time, but so can a magazine-fed rifle, and much less skill is required.  Loading a tube-fed shotgun quickly is very difficult to do, again, particularly under stress or while moving.  ARs are easy to load, and hold 3-4 times as much ammunition anyway.

 

Less-lethal options are definitely a point in the shotgun's favor, as are breaching rounds... those are the the two primary uses for the shotgun in combat. 

 

Where the rifle really shines is in precision at all ranges.  Remember, you're responsible for every projectile you send downrange, and every one of them is going to hit something.  Inside of 10 yards, sure a 00 shell will probably keep all nine pellets inside COM of the target, but at that range with an AR you can literally pick which eye you want to hit.  At 25 yards, 00 is getting marginal for keeping all pellets on a man-sized targets, but you're still in easy headshot/heart shot range with the rifle.  At 40 yards, the shotgun is pretty much done, unless you're shooting slugs, and the rifle is still capable of headshot precision.  If good guys are around, the rifle gives you much more flexibilty to engage the bad gys than buckshot at any range.

 

Another advantage of the rifle over the shotgun is the armored threat.  Practically all soft body armor stops 00 buck cold.  A rifle can defeat soft armor easily, and even trauma plates are much easier to shott "around" with a rifle than a shotgun.

 

That's my salvo for now.   :up:

[TMF]

Well there you have it...........that's why there are blondes, brunettes, and redheads.

Yep, and some of us like 'em all.

I have AR's, shotguns and pistols all worked into my base defense plan.

Shotguns are not the preferred weapon for any offensive CQB, despite all the popular video games. There are a bunch of reasons for this, but sleep assured no higher tiered door kicking organization uses them for anything other than breaching. For defensive use though I would agree that it is a great tool for close targets.

[RichardR]

You can argue the physics of it if you wish but there are plenty of actual, controlled experiments that show that 5.56 for HD will not penetrate as far as buckshot shotgun loads.

You must be refering to specialty 5.56 fragnible ammo, typical FMJ 5.56 zips right through both interior & exterior walls.

[RobertNashville]

You must be refering to specialty 5.56 fragnible ammo, typical FMJ 5.56 zips right through both interior & exterior walls.

Of course I am...I've said 5.56 HD ammo...ammo manufactured specifically for home defense purposes; surely no one though I was talking about perpetrator ammo???  :)

[RobertNashville]

Yep, and some of us like 'em all.

I have AR's, shotguns and pistols all worked into my base defense plan.

Shotguns are not the preferred weapon for any offensive CQB, despite all the popular video games. There are a bunch of reasons for this, but sleep assured no higher tiered door kicking organization uses them for anything other than breaching. For defensive use though I would agree that it is a great tool for close targets.

Absolutely.

 

My security system is always armed; as is my four-legged early warning system and cameras in strategic places...a handgun within arms reach in every major room in my house; a 12 gauge and my 5.56 in my bedroom at night.

 

As soon as I get a moat filled with sharks with f'ikin lasers on their heads I'll be all set.