Figuring out accuracy loads, what's your method? Other 223 bolt tips..

[timthetoolman]

Personally I:

 

Pick a range of projectiles for the twist rate.

Ladder load a variety of powder charges

Pick most accurate at 100 yards

Work on OAL to see where that bullet likes to sit in relation to the rifling

Try different primers to see if there is a change

Experiment with differnet crimp amounts (depending on caliber and firearm type)

Try basic prepped brass vs my version of match prepped brass

And finally....settle in on my "sweet load" and start making a bunch.

 

 

This may seem silly but here's why I ask.  Typically I have alot of time to toy around with the load.  Last year I picked up a new Rem 700 223 and got the barrel broke in last fall.  Then stuff went nutty with supplies etc. I have been able to pick up about 300 each of 40, 50, and 52 grain projectiles.  My father and I are going on a prairie dog hunt in South Dakota soon and I am crunched for time to work up a load(s) that I also have dope sheets on for the hunt.  Where we are going we will be taking 300-700 yard shots so it would nice to narrow the consistency down and get cozy with the combos before going.  How do yall find your sweet load?

 

What type of brass do you like most for 223, I have them all available so I am curious what others have found for weight, volume, etc for various brands. Any particular favorite loads for a 233 bolt reaching pretty far out there.  

 

My twist is 1:12 and powder wise I have some Varget, 4895, WC 842, and WC 846.  I have used them all thru my AR, but I would prefer to use the milsurp stuff and save my nicer powders for other projects. A friend of mine has the exact same rifle and he uses 26 grain of 842 under a 50 grain Hornady w BR primers and Lapua brass for sub MOA consistently. I know in my AR 24.6 of 842  is about the most I like to run in it. Any opinions? 

 

I only have 100 rounds of Lapua brass so thats out for me, and I will have to stick with once fired stuff.

 

Thanks

 

Tim  :usa:

[Dolomite_supafly]

I use a chronograph to load. There is a correlation, I believe, Standard Deviation and vertical stringing when shooting at longer distances.

 

Everyone has their own routine for accuracy testing. I do it this way to minimize my time at the range. I can shoot at my house so I can determine SD's without being at a range. With my testing all components are as close to being identical as humanly possible. Cases the same, bullets the same, primers the same and all are loaded in the same setting. The only variable when I test will be the powder charge and overall length of the bullet.

This is how I test loads for accuracy. I will load 3 rounds with the bullet I plan to shoot starting at the minimum powder charge and at the maximum overall length. Then I load 3 more but I add .3 grains of powder to the load and again at the maximum overall length. I do this, .3 of a grain at a time, until I start to see signs of pressure. I record the results then move on to the next powder and do the same. And once I find a load that has a SD I feel is small enough I start the load development.

 

With the same powder you will find a point where the SD numbers drop significantly. I think this is where the powder has reached is perfect efficiency. I have a 223 load that has a SD of 1.73 fps, which is amazing. I thought my chronograph was broke or the batteries were dead but after replacing the batteries it ran the same numbers again and again.

 

And because the bullet exits at a certain part of the whip you need to find the position where the bullet exits at the same time. I normally load the 3 that had the smallest SD. Then I load 3 more with the same charge except I seat the bullet .01" deeper in the case. Then 3 more that are .01" deeper than the previous. Seating .01" deeper will change where the bullet exits during the whip of the barrel. I will generally start out seating .01" and stop at .10". That is unless I see pressure signs first.

Then I take these loads and shoot them at a horizontal line on the target. I am not worried about lining up with a vertical line at this point. I try 100 or maybe even 200 yards. You are not worried about the horizontal, side to side, group size but vertical group size. That is if you have 3 rounds that are spread out over 2" vertically that means the bullets are exiting at different times during the whip. If you find that 3 rounds that are on that horizontal line, even if they are spread out horizontally, that means these are exiting very close to the same point during the whip.

 

I also prep my brass when I am trying to squeeze the absolute last amount of accuracy of the gun. I buy brand new brass and use brass from the same lot. I trim them all then weigh them all and throw out any out of the norm. Then I uniform the flash holes and chamfer the flash hole. I uniform the primer pockets so they are identical. Then I neck size the brass followed by body sizing the brass. And when seating my primers I seat them using a die that allows me to set the depth so all primers will be the same height.

For my Savages I set the headspace at 0 using the sized pieces of brass. That is I loosen the barrel nut and tighten the barrel down onto the sized piece of brass without anything providing some clearance, like tape or paper or gauges.

 

What did all this work get me? I have a factory Savage barrel that shot .3's at 100 yards pretty consistently. And those are 7 shot groups, not 3 or 5.

 

I haven't used this method for probably a year since I went to the 300 Blackout. I no longer shoot for the smallest groups on paper but do shoot for fun. I enjoy shooting clays and other reactive target so as long as my hand loads are able to that I am happy.

 

 

 

[itchytriggerfinger]

....  That is unless I see pressure signs first.
 

 

I don't want to thread hijack, but could you give some examples of what you're looking for, or point me to some reading on it?  

[Currently]

I don't want to thread hijack, but could you give some examples of what you're looking for, or point me to some reading on it?

Google is your friend ...

http://www.google.com/#sclient=tablet-gws&q=high+pressure+signs+in+reloading&oq=high+pressure+signs&gs_l=tablet-gws.1.0.0l3.2556.15395.0.19011.19.14.0.5.5.0.386.2074.5j6j2j1.14.0...0.0...1c.1.14.tablet-gws-psy.S0mXudQ0oFU&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.&bvm=bv.47008514,d.eWU&fp=7c32a7d9837a4c83&biw=1024&bih=672

[jeff43]

Doesn't the weather affect the way a rifle shoots?Humidity and temp .A load that shoots a 1/2" group today may open up to 1" or bigger tomorrow.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I don't think weather changes will affect group size as much as it will affect trajectory. Air can get thicker and thinner depending on the weather or elevation. In thicker air the bullet will not fly as far.

 

During inclement weather the wind generally blows more and more unpredictibly. Those unpredictable winds can affect group size.

 

I have not personally seen groups change in size with the weather. I have seen a point of impact shift because of weather. I would say that the groups would be similar on a calm 95 degree day and a calm 35 degree day but the groups would be on different areas of the target.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I don't want to thread hijack, but could you give some examples of what you're looking for, or point me to some reading on it?  

Here are some signs of pressure on primers:

Flattening of primers is indication of pressure but primer type can affect how wasy they deform. The first two on the left are fine. The third is a sign and the fourth is the point you need to be concerned. Not saying the fourth is bad or dangerous, just saying you should have worked up to that point very, very slowly. I do not believe the third and fourth were fired by the same gun. You can see primer flow around the firing pin in three but not in four.

 

Piercing the primer is also a sign of pressure and is bad for several reasons. First those hot gases can erode the firing pin tip affecting firing pin protrusion and that affects reliability. Second the gases go into the bolt between the firing pin and the firing pin hole. This will enlarge that hole and cause the primers to flow back into the hole like in number three above. This can cause a primer failure because the firing pin actually supports the primer some. It deposits dirt and crud inside the bolt which can affect reliability. And finally those gases can, depending on the gun, reach the shooters face. That is why it is important to wear glasses at all times but especially when doing load development.

 

I have personally had one that you could not see a difference between the case and the primer. The primer flow was so severe the entire back of the case was flat except for the dent in the primer and a mark left by the ejector. Most of the writing was gone off the back of the case as well. After this the case was ruined. The primer pocket was so loose you could drop a primer into the primer pocket and it would fall back out. And honestly I was extremely lucky the case did not fail. That was probably the last time I pushed the envelope.

 

How easily a primer flattens is dependent on the primers used. Federal primers tend to be the softest while some Russian primers tend to be really hard. That is why you read the primers with other signs like sticky extraction or marks on the case that were transferred by the bolt head. It is quite possible to get to a point beyond the pressure range of the cartridge without seeing signs on the primer.

 

And finally, never exceed published data. At least not without knowing what you are doing and doing it very slowly. I have spoken to a lot of new reloaders and they say they start at the max load and work down. That is a very bad practice because some guns can affect pressure. And being new to reloading where would you want the mistake to happen, at the minimum or the maximum load data? That is why it is better to start low and work up. Also, I have never found a bullet that is more accurate at max than at significant less than max. I tend to load on the lighter end of the spectrum because it is easier on brass and easier on the gun. My go to 223 load is a 69SMK with 24.5 grains of Varget. Max is 26 grains and I have loaded to max but my groups suffered significantly. BTW, the velocity with that load in a 16" gun is 2,350 fps.

 

And what is a safe pressure in one gun can be unsafe in another. The throat can have a significant affect on pressure and if you are already at or beyond max in one gun then fire the ammunition in another with a much shorter throat you might have problems. That is why I NEVER load at or beyond max unless it is for a specific gun. All my "universal" ammo is loaded well below max to take into account for different guns that might shoot that ammo.

 

I know this seems like a lot of work but it is necessary to get accurate AND safe ammunition. And once you have done it for a while you get a feel for what is normal.

 

Picture form here:

http://www.larrywillis.com/pressure_signs.html

[itchytriggerfinger]

Awesome explanation! Thank you Dolomite.

[timthetoolman]

Thanks for the input so far.  I do have a chrony and forgot to toss that in the list.  But in all honesty I have not been using it like I should.  I have typically used it to "check" my loads after in order to add info to a ballistics program.  That being said, I did use the chrony to work up my 223 load for the AR platform.  I guess I will start with my favorite AR load and work it from there.  But I always load about 10 of each variety and try to shoot three groups of three, leaving one as an "oops" if I pull wrong.  I guess I was on the right track and its time to get loading! 

 

Any opinions on loading on single stage versus a Dillon for accuracy?  I would like to use my Dillon and save my elbow, and it seems pretty bang on for my pistols rounds.  I have run alot of 223 through it for the AR, but they are just for plinking so....

[Luke E.]

[quote name="timthetoolman" post="976589" timestamp=

Any opinions on loading on single stage versus a Dillon for accuracy? I would like to use my Dillon and save my elbow, and it seems pretty bang on for my pistols rounds. I have run alot of 223 through it for the AR, but they are just for plinking so....[/quote]

Or you could meet in the middle with a turret press and you have one at your disposal if needed.

[timthetoolman]

I think I'm going to give 26 grains of 842 a try.  Will prolly load lower and higher with the charge just to see where it lands.  I'll use my Lapua brass for testing so some variables are removed.  I'll also use BR primers off the bat as they seem to do marginally better than SR.  I'll load several with the Dillon, and the same with the RCBS and see if there is any negligible difference.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I think I'm going to give 26 grains of 842 a try.  Will prolly load lower and higher with the charge just to see where it lands.  I'll use my Lapua brass for testing so some variables are removed.  I'll also use BR primers off the bat as they seem to do marginally better than SR.  I'll load several with the Dillon, and the same with the RCBS and see if there is any negligible difference.

What bullet weight?

[trevorst]

The temperature and humidity of where you are going does need to factored in. I can get great winter loads with RL15 for 223 but when the temps get really hot it's not the best (I have seen almost 100fps of variance, of course that's early morning desert to mid day but....), that's one reason varget is popular or at least one reason it's popular with me. It's very consistent regardless of temp, its not the best powder for my 260 or my 308 or my 223 (or my 22-250 for that matter) but when you factor in weather..... It's very difficult to beat.

Depending on where you are going the temp can vary a lot more than TN from morning to mid day to evening.

If you are reloading quite a few rounds make sure you are staying in the same lot number of powder (can be a pretty big deviation from lot to lot also).

[timthetoolman]

What bullet weight?

52 grain Hornady A Max, I also have 50 and 40 grain, but 52 is what I would like to try first with the 1:12 twist.

[Dolomite_supafly]

52 grain Hornady A Max, I also have 50 and 40 grain, but 52 is what I would like to try first with the 1:12 twist.

I would start at 25.5 grains of SMP842 and work up. SMP842 is a great powder but it can be very unforgiving if you are not careful.

 

I will say that at 26 you are VERY close to what I would consider max with the bullets you are using.

[Currently]

Also pay close attention to the chambering of the rifle and the brass you are using.

A 5.56 can shoot .223, not vice versa due to chamber/throat relationship.

Military 5.56 brass typically has a thicker web at the base of the shell when compared to commercial .223 Remington brass. Capacity is slightly smaller.

Sort your brass. Load to .223 specs and you will be good to go. I believe that military sniper rounds are loaded to .223 spec ... Accuracy is rarely if ever the hottest load.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

My uncle introduced my father and I to reloading. He was a carpenter ...

Like most teenagers, I got excited about now having the freedom and choice to make some "hot" rounds that are better than what you can buy in a store. Like making car engines more powerful and so on ...

He crooked his index finger at me and said, "Come outside for a minute, I want to show you something."

He took a 22 oz Estwing framing hammer and a couple 3 1/2 inch nails and walked to a piece of 4x4 lumber we had lying around. He handed me the hammer and a nail and told me to drive the nail into the wood. So I tap, tap, tap, tap seven or eight times till the nail went in.

Then he asked for his hammer back and said, "I want you to do this ..." He took a nail and gave it a good tap to plant it and with one hard well practiced blow, he sank the nail almost to the head in the pine.

"Now, you do it."

I took the hammer back from him and tried several times to sink it just the way he did. I either bent the nail or missed it completely creating a huge dent in the wood with the hammer head.

He stopped me and said, "That's enough!"

"See this piece of wood?" "That's your father's rifle that he paid $400 for, those nails are those 'inexpensive and hot' bullets you want to load."

"That rifle will last you a lifetime if you treat it with care and respect."

"You load hot, and you WILL destroy that rifle either with an explosion or ruin it before its time."

Being the typical teenaged wiseass, I told him he was able to drive that nail with one blow.

He then responded, " I've been doing this for over twenty years, I still miss and bend nails every twenty or so."

"I can't afford to buy a new rifle every time I screw up."

Never forgot that lesson ... RIP, Uncle Mo. Edited June 2, 2013 by Currently

[timthetoolman]

I would start at 25.5 grains of SMP842 and work up. SMP842 is a great powder but it can be very unforgiving if you are not careful.

 

I will say that at 26 you are VERY close to what I would consider max with the bullets you are using.

 

Im with you...  I loaded 10 each at 25.6, 25.8, 26, 26.2, and 26.4  to run through the chrony and see what pressure signs exist.  Like you, I have used quite a bit of 842 and I wouldnt get close to those charges in my AR.  I'm using Lapua brass for the test but plan on using other brands for bulk loading.  After these have been fired I will only neck size them and see what accuracy I pick up.

 

Yesterday was windy as hell here, and then rained.  Today isnt looking so awesome for testing either.  I think I will putz around with some 38 and 357 loads in the meantime.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Also pay close attention to the chambering of the rifle and the brass you are using.

A 5.56 can shoot .223, not vice versa due to chamber/throat relationship.

Military 5.56 brass typically has a thicker web at the base of the shell when compared to commercial .223 Remington brass. Capacity is slightly smaller.

Sort your brass. Load to .223 specs and you will be good to go. I believe that military sniper rounds are loaded to .223 spec ... Accuracy is rarely if ever the hottest load.

 

The case capacity is actually a myth that has been dispelled. Most 5.56 brass actually has more capacity than more commercial 223 loads.

check about 1/2 way down this page for capacities:

http://www.6mmbr.com/223rem.html

 

 

Here is a chart that backs up the website:

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=332186

[Currently]

Thanks for the correction!

I based my assumption on using a Dremel to cut in half a SS109 Portuguese FN NATO round versus a commercial Remington soft point hunting load a couple decades ago. There was a noticeable difference in the web of cartridge.

I used to buy the SS109 green vinyl battle packs from Atlanta Discount Ammo and loved shooting that stuff.

A lot of my experience is dated to those pre-Internet days where gun magazine articles and Shotgun News were my sources of info.

EDIT: That article you linked too confirms my experience. Check out the last sentence.

Quote


.223 Remington vs. 5.56x45--Chambering and Throat Considerations
Is the .223 Remington the same as the 5.56x45? The answer is yes and no. There ARE differences between the .223 Remington as shot in civilian rifles and the 5.56x45 in military use. While the external cartridge dimensions are essentially the same, the .223 Remington is built to SAAMI specs, rated to 50,000 CUP max pressure, and normally has a shorter throat. The 5.56x45 is built to NATO specs, rated to 60,000 CUP max pressure, and has a longer throat, optimized to shoot long bullets. That said, there are various .223 Remington match chambers, including the Wylde chamber, that feature longer throats. Military 5.56x45 brass often, but not always, has thicker internal construction, and slightly less capacity than commercial .223 Rem brass.

/Quote Edited June 3, 2013 by Currently

[jphillips63]

In smaller cases such as the 223 load in .2-.3 grain increments. If you have a chronograph know how to read one and what to look for. I load custom cartridges that produce very high pressures and a chronograph is a much needed tool, looking at primers for craters and such is ok but that chronograph can tell you more than any visual of a primer will. I don't have any data with me as I'm at work but one example of a pressure spike is when you shoot over a chronograph and as you see the velocity of each different charge rise and then you see the next set the velocity backs off, when this happens you're very close to a pressure spike that next set of reloads can jump from 50 fps to over 100 fps depending on the cartridge and where you're at in your loads on powder charges. I also use an Ohler chronograph with strain gauges and I can visually see the pressure being produced in the chamber on each load I fire. I know most folks don't have this type of equipment but a chronograph is your best friend and tool in reloading for accuracy.

[jeff43]

I get good accuracy out of 25 grains of Accurate 2230 with a Nosler 50 gr ballastic tip in my Savage mdl. 10 Precision carbine an my Stevens mdl. 200. 1/2" 3 shot group or smaller on a good day at 100 yds.

[timthetoolman]

Well I did my ladder load, blah, blah, blah.  Starting load with 842 behind the 52gr A Max was 25.4....  Too hot.  Ran over the chrony at 3470 - 3550. They shot ok but the speeds were all over the place and the primers were a little flattened.  Lesson learned about listening to a friend for their sweet load, and variations in surplus pull powders.  I didn't shoot any of the hotter loads, and pulled them yesterday.  While shooting I ran a few of my "AR" loads through the bolt gun and the speeds with a 55gr bullet were about what I want for my 52 gr.  So back to around 24.6 grains it is.  Even with the wildly ranging speeds I shot a 10 round group that was about 1/2" at 100 yards, so I am not too worried about the accuracy.  I'm going to load some up tonight and give them a whirl.  One benefit of loading them the same as my AR loads is the cross compatibility as well. 

[timthetoolman]

I get good accuracy out of 25 grains of Accurate 2230 with a Nosler 50 gr ballastic tip in my Savage mdl. 10 Precision carbine an my Stevens mdl. 200. 1/2" 3 shot group or smaller on a good day at 100 yds.

 

I use 25 of Varget for about the same, and love the stuff.  Its just gotten hard to find, pricey, and I have a bunch of surplus to burn up.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Well I did my ladder load, blah, blah, blah.  Starting load with 842 behind the 52gr A Max was 25.4....  Too hot.  Ran over the chrony at 3470 - 3550. They shot ok but the speeds were all over the place and the primers were a little flattened.  Lesson learned about listening to a friend for their sweet load, and variations in surplus pull powders.  I didn't shoot any of the hotter loads, and pulled them yesterday.  While shooting I ran a few of my "AR" loads through the bolt gun and the speeds with a 55gr bullet were about what I want for my 52 gr.  So back to around 24.6 grains it is.  Even with the wildly ranging speeds I shot a 10 round group that was about 1/2" at 100 yards, so I am not too worried about the accuracy.  I'm going to load some up tonight and give them a whirl.  One benefit of loading them the same as my AR loads is the cross compatibility as well. 

 

Double check your chronograph. With the numbers being all over the place, while still shooting a great group. it almost sounds like you might be too close to the chronograph.

 

I use SMP842 to load 53 SMK's. I am using 1+ grain more powder than you and getting less fps. This is in a gun that has a 20" barrel.  My SD with SMP842 was 1.73 fps and as amazing as it sounds it has been double checked several times and the numbers are staying the same.

 

If you are using a bolt gun with a long barrel the extra fps would make sense.

 

I might need to go mix all of my SMP842 just to make sure it is consistent.

[timthetoolman]

Double check your chronograph. With the numbers being all over the place, while still shooting a great group. it almost sounds like you might be too close to the chronograph.

 

I use SMP842 to load 53 SMK's. I am using 1+ grain more powder than you and getting less fps. This is in a gun that has a 20" barrel.  My SD with SMP842 was 1.73 fps and as amazing as it sounds it has been double checked several times and the numbers are staying the same.

 

If you are using a bolt gun with a long barrel the extra fps would make sense.

 

I might need to go mix all of my SMP842 just to make sure it is consistent.

 

 

Chrony - It is about 15 feet away, how far out do you place yours?

 

When you say +1 more grain than what I am do you mean 25.6 grains?  I've mentioned so many different loads I am just curious where you have landed if your willing to share.

 

I sat down with my shooting log last night and did some mental fps estimations and reloaded another 40 rounds.  10 each with the following 24.4, 24.6, 24.8, and 25.  

 

I also fired another 20 rounds of my 55gr FMJ loads thru the chrony and got my normal speeds of right around 3000 fps, with 24.6 grains.  Typically I do expect some fluctuation in the speeds because I am loading pulls on my Dillon 550.  For these test rounds I am using my RCBS Chargemaster to keep things as consistent as time allows...still using Lapua Match brass and BR primers.  What kind of primers are you using.

 

Oh by the way, I just started a 300 blackout build, so plan for some conversation on that as soon as I locate a barrel source!

 

 

Thanks

 

Tim