Troubling news for the Trayvon Martin camp

[DaveS]

Here is a picture of Trayvon the defense says was taken just minutes before his death.

 

 

 

 

The hoodie the defense says Trayvon was wearing at the time of his death.

 

 

So, I am saying that Trayvon ran home, changed clothes, ran back outside still holding his goodies to whoop Zman's azz and got shot. It's very possible TM didn't want to mess up his good clothes with blood. If this is the best the defense can do, I'd want a new lawyer....

 

Dave S

Edited May 26, 2013 by DaveS

[RobertNashville]

 
 It isn’t an unfounded allegation; it’s an undisputed fact. What did Martin do that gave Zimmerman the cause or authority to chase him when he was trying to get away from a guy following him and ultimately chasing him? Zimmerman was committing a crime when it turned into a pursuit.

Disengaged? What authority or right did he have to “engage” in the first place?

I guess a lot of this depends on who people identify with. Some seem to think convicting Zimmerman will somehow limit their ability to protect themselves. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Do any of you plan on jumping out of your truck and chasing a kid that you think is suspicious? I don’t.

I identify with Martin. If I am walking down the street and some citizen thinks I look suspicious and he wants to check me out and starts approaching me in a threatening manner; I will display a weapon, that is my right to defend myself as an innocent citizen. If he has a gun a decides to draw; one of us is probably going to die. If I was the survivor and he was a dead neighborhood watch person I hate to think you would all be saying I had no right to protect myself in an unprovoked attack.

Fact?  What "fact" are you talking about.

 

You use words like "chase" but unless you are holding out on us you weren't there; there is a hell of a lot of difference between "chasing" someone and simply trying to keep up with someone to see where he is going/if he, as Zimmerman suspected, was going to do something criminal. And if Zimmerman was heading back to his vehicle then how was he "chasing" Martin?

 

When exactly did Zimmerman display his weapon - do you know that for a "fact" too?

 

Martin had a "right to defend himself" if and ONLY if Zimmerman presented an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm and I see NOTHING in any evidence we have access to that shows Zimmerman did so...if you've got access to something I don't or have missed please feel free to point me to it.

[TripleDigitRide]

Looks like he's up to no good. Zimmerman probably saved someone from being robbed. Team Zimmerman!

[RobertNashville]

It appears to me me that you the only person reeatedly concentrating on race as if Martin deserved to die simply for being black. Many of these gentlemen have made reasoned arguments both pro and con for what they believe happened in this case. Your best augument approaches theres no way Martin wasn't up to something because he was black.

This isn't a racial issue. This case is about will a family man spend the rest of his life in jail for a justified shooting or was a young man gunned down because the "fit the decription".

Race is absolutely an issue - it's the soul reason Zimmerman is on trial for murder...had this been a white 17 year old thug it would have ended when the DA decided not to prosecute.

The DA at the time it happened saw the evidence and didn't prosecute...the evidence I've seen since has given me no reason to think that the DA was wrong.

Edited May 26, 2013 by RobertNashville

[TMF]

[


For me this is really simple (and should have been for everyone).


1.) Did Trayvon brutally assault & repeatedly bash Zimmermans head into the sidewalk? Yes/no.


2.) Did Zimmerman have a "reasonable belief" that he was in immediate danger of sustaining SBI &/or possibly being killed by Trayvon's actions when he discharged his weapon Yes/no


See how easy & uncomplicated that is?


.

Those two question a justified shoot does not make... at all. There are plenty of murderers behind bars who were in a situation where broth sets of criteria were met. I referenced one already in this thread. If you or any other HCP holder believe that these two questions alone make or break a justified shoot you'd be dead wrong.

[TMF]

Looks like he's up to no good. Zimmerman probably saved someone from being robbed. Team Zimmerman!

You know how some folks get after downing some Skittles. Usually how folks start a crime spree.

[TripleDigitRide]

Looks like he's up to no good. Zimmerman probably saved someone from being robbed. Team Zimmerman!

You know how some folks get after downing some Skittles. Usually how folks start a crime spree.

Yep! Especially true with these new-age youngsters who crush and snort their Skittles. That stuff is bad news.
Edited May 26, 2013 by TripleDigitRide

[TMF]

Why do people keep saying that he had no "authority" to investigate?

Investigate what? What crime was he committing?

[RobertNashville]

You make a good point Robert, but Zimmerman's primary responsibility as a member of a watch group is to observe and report. Zimmerman set this entire death spiral into play when he did anything except call the authorities and tell them which direction the suspicious person was headed, what he was wearing and he was doing.

Zimmerman being or not being a member of a "watch group" is absolutely irrelevant.

He was a citizen (or "white Hispanic" if you perfer; whatever the hell that's supposed to be) who lived in a neighborhood that had been dealing with break-ins and, it sounds like, the thugs usually getting away.  He saw someone he thought looked suspicious and tried to describe and follow him until the police arrived..he took his side arm with him as I and I'd bet everybody else on this board would have done.   The 911 operator told him he didn't need to follow Martin and from what I've seen he complied with teh 911 operator and either had or was about to return to his vehicle when he was jumped and beaten.

 

You can say he should have never "followed" Martin in the first place or never left his vehicle and I'd be inclined to agree with you but I can't see any act on Zimmerman's part that presented to Martin what a "reasonable man" would consider to be an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm and if there was no such threat from Zimmerman toward Martin then Martin was the aggressor, had ZERO legal right to jump Zimmerman and beat his head against the sidewalk - as far as I can see, Martin got exactly what he deserved.

[mikegideon]

I'm convinced that y'all just like to argue :)

[Links2k]

You know how some folks get after downing some Skittles. Usually how folks start a crime spree.

It's that potent mixture of canned iced tea and Skittles that sends them over the edge. He couldn't resist going on a crime spree. Zimmerman may have prevented a massacre.

[DaveS]

What was Zimmermans reasonable suspicion or probable cause to investigate this kid? Cannot this be compared to cops investigating a person who is open carrying? Neither was committing a crime.....right? What did Trayvon do to cause Zman to follow him? Walking home? Carrying something in his hands? Wearing a hoodie? What did Zman do to get his butt beat? Answer that question...

 

When did Trayvon change his clothes before being shot? I will say, that if Trayvon went home, changed clothes and came back outside with his goodies to confront Zman, then he got everything he had coming! But I don't think that is what happened.

 

Dave S

[Links2k]

I'm convinced that y'all just like to argue :)

Almost like we've been waiting on a thread like this one.

[TMF]

I am really looking forward to the evidence presented at trial from both sides.

[RobertNashville]

I'm convinced that y'all just like to argue :)

damn right

[DaveS]

I looked at pictures of Zman pecan after he said TM kept beating his head against the sidewalk. I'm not saying he never got his head cut that way, but years of experience in that field, I just don't see the blood smear and/or splatter on his head that says he repeatedly got his head beat on a sidewalk. Punched in the head or maybe hit with something, maybe his head only hit once or so. But not repeatedly as he contends.

 

Dave

[Guest 6.8 AR]

 

Voice analyst of the 911 calls Just released information.

 

SANFORD -- 

The findings of state audio experts who examined the 911 calls made the night Trayvon Martin was shot and killed were released Tuesday. 

In call three, made by a woman who reported seeing the confrontation outside her home, screams can be heard and the audio experts came to different conclusions on who is heard screaming in the background.

Forensic Communication Associates in Gainesville examined the 911 call and broke it down scream by scream. 

Senior Consultants Harry Hollien and James Harnsberger were given CD’s containing voice recordings of both George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin to use for comparison.

Hollien and Harnsberger concluded that “only a little over eight seconds of speech was found available for assessment.”

They identified 16 samples of screams in that time frame and concluded that screams one and eight were made by Trayvon Martin and screams 14 and 16 were made by George Zimmerman.

Another analysis of the call was done by Forensic Acoustics Consultant Alan Reich.  He said his findings show that the cries came from Trayvon Martin.

He claims to hear Zimmerman make a seemingly "religious proclamation" saying, "This shall be."

The analyst describes the tone as that of an evangelical preacher or a carnival barker.

The analyst then reports hearing a higher pitched voice believed to be Trayvon Martin saying, "I'm begging you," which happens simultaneously with speech by the 911 operator and George Zimmerman.

In May 2012, Reich was retained by The Washington Post to do the same analysis and came to the same conclusion at that time.

Zimmerman’s lead defense attorney Mark O’Mara said the only thing the audio analysis shows is that the recording is not long enough, or good enough quality, to prove anything. “There are two of them, and they seem to be internally inconsistent, because they seem to be saying different things. One witness says he thinks he hears certain things, and another witness says he doesn’t hear that. And none of them can come up with something that is precise … or that is something they can testify with.”

O’Mara said since the analysis came out just a month away from the beginning of the trial, he may ask for a delay in the trial so his defense team can have enough time to look at the science that was used to analyze the call.  He also said he plans on challenging those methods used at an evidentiary hearing he has asked for later this month

 

 

• George Zimmerman's attorney asks for delay of trial
• George Zimmerman graduation pics among newly released photos
• Shellie Zimmerman's witness list released
• Audio experts differ in analysis of Trayvon Martin shooting call
• George Zimmerman defense wants anonymous jury
• George Zimmerman lawyers want to take jury to shooting scene

Dave

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dave, do you really think this audio evidence, hired by a newspaper to do, will see the light of day?

 

On a related note, I remember some discrediting of this or someone else alleging to have done audio analysis

on this case.

 

The results are fairly subjective.

[mikegideon]

Dave, do you really think this audio evidence, hired by a newspaper to do, will see the light of day?

 

On a related note, I remember some discrediting of this or someone else alleging to have done audio analysis

on this case.

 

The results are fairly subjective.

 

More like completely subjective

[TripleDigitRide]

I'm convinced that y'all just like to argue :)

Which is better, 9mm or .45?

[Guest TankerHC]

Does that manual carry penalty of law? No? Then what does it matter. He isn't protected from anything based on his being a neighborhood watch volunteer.

 

Doesnt matter if it does carry penalty of law. Only matters if the Prosecutors can prove that Zimmerman claimed (And he did) to be working in the Capacity of a Neighborhood Watch Captain and he should have been aware of the rules. No confrontation, no weapons, no police powers. Like someone mentioned about the OJ trial, everyone only saw what they saw on TV, didnt see the entire trial. Whether he did it or not, the Jury found him not guilty. Maybe an attorney or someone wioth knowledge can chime in but I dod believe Martha whats her name said after the trial that "Not Guilty: is not the same as being found "Innocent" in California. It only means there wasnt enough evidence to convict. I think (And this is only my opinion) we will see the prosecutors use that manual and Zimmermans claims against him. Its not going to matter to a jury what holds the power of law, what will though is that Zimmerman violated every rule in the book. As someone else above mentioned, if he would not only have listened to the 911 dispatcher, but simply followed the rules in the book, this thread would not even exist.

 

I dont know one way or the other. As I stated I wasnt there, but with the press reports, the probable lawsuits, the claims of racism, the claims of taking away Martins Civil Rights by "murder", the more than probability of riots, Zimmerman ignoring his attorneys advice and going on TV, committing Civil violations while out on bond and all the rest. His attorneys are going to have a hard line to two in this case.

 

In the right or in the wrong, Zimmerman is facing a major uphill battle, unless his attorneys are along the lines of a "Dream Team" he will spend some time in prison would be my guess. And he hasn't helped his defense team a whole lot by doing those things.

 

I dont know about anyone else, but if I were in his shoes, I would have kept my mouth shut and did every single thing my defense team told me to do.

Edited May 26, 2013 by TankerHC

[RobertNashville]

Doesnt matter if it does carry penalty of law. Only matters if the Prosecutors can prove that Zimmerman claimed (And he did) to be working in the Capacity of a Neighborhood Watch Captain and he should have been aware of the rules. No confrontation, no weapons, no police powers. Like someone mentioned about the OJ trial, everyone only saw what they saw on TV, didnt see the entire trial. Whether he did it or not, the Jury found him not guilty. Maybe an attorney or someone wioth knowledge can chime in but I dod believe Martha whats her name said after the trial that "Not Guilty: is not the same as being found "Innocent" in California. It only means there wasnt enough evidence to convict. I think (And this is only my opinion) we will see the prosecutors use that manual and Zimmermans claims against him. Its not going to matter to a jury what holds the power of law, what will though is that Zimmerman violated every rule in the book. As someone else above mentioned, if he would not only have listened to the 911 dispatcher, but simply followed the rules in the book, this thread would not even exist.

 

I dont know one way or the other. As I stated I wasnt there, but with the press reports, the probable lawsuits, the claims of racism, the claims of taking away Martins Civil Rights by "murder", the more than probability of riots, Zimmerman ignoring his attorneys advice and going on TV, committing Civil violations while out on bond and all the rest. His attorneys are going to have a hard line to two in this case.

 

In the right or in the wrong, Zimmerman is facing a major uphill battle, unless his attorneys are along the lines of a "Dream Team" he will spend some time in prison would be my guess.

I don't think the "manual" is an issue; a "manual" can't disarm an otherwise legally armed citizen.

 

"Neighborhood watch captain" or not anyone has a right to call 911 and report what he believes to be a suspicious person...and that person also does nothing illegal by trying to keep the suspicious person in sight until the police get there.

 

I'm in my neighborhood watch; the Rutherford CSO never gave any of us manuals that I'm aware of. I don't nor do the rest of my neighbors "patrol" our neighborhood but I can damn sure tell you that if I"m awake I'M ARMED and that would include; even especially include if, until the police arrived, I outside of my home and were trying to keep an eye on someone I though was a potential thief/criminal up to no good.

Edited May 26, 2013 by RobertNashville

[Daniel]

Investigate what? What crime was he committing?

Investigate the unknown person roaming his neighborhood. Just as if I saw a random walking down my street I would watch to see where he was going. Double if I had a string of break-ins. That is just as a concerned citizen. As a neighborhood watch volunteer I would feel it was my duty to report and maintain visual contact. If I was watching someone and they took off running as they saw that I was observing them I  would be of the opinion that they ran because they were guilty of something.

 

If I noticed a person breaking into my neighbors house I would probably arm myself and walk outside to where I had a clear view of the home, any vehicle, any accomplices, and any further actions while I awaited the police. Seeing as I also have a flip camera I would probably pick that up to turn on and use as well. 

 

Would I be in the wrong? If I was approached and attacked by said home intruders in a public street or sidewalk would I be expected to have my head bashed in because I decided that being a witness was more important than sitting back and letting people do whatever they want left unchecked?

Edited May 26, 2013 by Daniel

[RobertNashville]

Which is better, 9mm or .45?

That's easy...10MM is best although to be honest, I carry 45ACP more often than 10MM

[DaveS]

Doesnt matter if it does carry penalty of law. Only matters if the Prosecutors can prove that Zimmerman claimed (And he did) to be working in the Capacity of a Neighborhood Watch Captain and he should have been aware of the rules. No confrontation, no weapons, no police powers. Like someone mentioned about the OJ trial, everyone only saw what they saw on TV, didnt see the entire trial. Whether he did it or not, the Jury found him not guilty. Maybe an attorney or someone wioth knowledge can chime in but I dod believe Martha whats her name said after the trial that "Not Guilty: is not the same as being found "Innocent" in California. It only means there wasnt enough evidence to convict. I think (And this is only my opinion) we will see the prosecutors use that manual and Zimmermans claims against him. Its not going to matter to a jury what holds the power of law, what will though is that Zimmerman violated every rule in the book. As someone else above mentioned, if he would not only have listened to the 911 dispatcher, but simply followed the rules in the book, this thread would not even exist.

 

I dont know one way or the other. As I stated I wasnt there, but with the press reports, the probable lawsuits, the claims of racism, the claims of taking away Martins Civil Rights by "murder", the more than probability of riots, Zimmerman ignoring his attorneys advice and going on TV, committing Civil violations while out on bond and all the rest. His attorneys are going to have a hard line to two in this case.

 

In the right or in the wrong, Zimmerman is facing a major uphill battle, unless his attorneys are along the lines of a "Dream Team" he will spend some time in prison would be my guess. And he hasn't helped his defense team a whole lot by doing those things.

 

I dont know about anyone else, but if I were in his shoes, I would have kept my mouth shut and did every single thing my defense team told me to do.

I agree with that. The day they showed his video..I said "shut the hell up dude!"

 

All in all, I think this case will give us all something to think about. All the hell we could go through over (in our opinions) what we think is a good shoot.

 

Dave

[Daniel]

What was Zimmermans reasonable suspicion or probable cause to investigate this kid? Cannot this be compared to cops investigating a person who is open carrying? Neither was committing a crime.....right? What did Trayvon do to cause Zman to follow him? Walking home? Carrying something in his hands? Wearing a hoodie? What did Zman do to get his butt beat? Answer that question...

 

When did Trayvon change his clothes before being shot? I will say, that if Trayvon went home, changed clothes and came back outside with his goodies to confront Zman, then he got everything he had coming! But I don't think that is what happened.

 

Dave S

He isn't a police officer. He was not conducting an official investigation. He was just a guy who saw something that looked funny and decided it was worth taking another look. He doesnt conduct terry stops as was mentioned earlier. He doesnt have RAS or PC requirements to ask someone a question. He doesnt have any restrictions to observe someone walking down a public sidewalk or in this case a private walk to which he was a paying resident of.