Troubling news for the Trayvon Martin camp

[Guest TankerHC]

My opinion.

 

Zimmerman was convicted in the court of public opinion within 24 hours of the shooting. Right or wrong he is going to jail for the simple reason, if the outcome of the trial is Not Guilty, Florida (And who knows where else) will burn.

 

If found Not Guilty, the family of Martin will file a Civil Suit against Zimmerman, The City of Sanford, and probably the State of Florida and be awarded millions, if found Guilty, the The City of Sanford and State of Florida will pay millions. Initially, Martins Grandmother said she would not sue, she only wanted Justice. A week later The Reverend Jackson visited Florida and she and the rest of his family announced they were preparing for a lawsuit.

 

Forget Justice, there is big money involved now and the looters are waiting in the wings.

 

I wasnt there and unless cameras are allowed in the courtroom, will never know what really happened (Or happens). But no doubt, after seeing that Tawana Brawley (Sp) was heralded as a Civil Rights icon, lovely honest woman and all sorts of good things last week at a party as she was trying to raise money to pay the interest on the judgement from the white police officers who sued her, that she set up and lied about and made National Headlines, there can also be no doubt that one way or another we are seeing the latest Civil Rights icon in the making, either way.

 

Five things are for sure.

Zimmermans head was cracked open.

He was legitimately patrolling that area as part of his neighborhood watch as a watch captain, not gunslinging as some would have other believe.

He legally held a Concealed Carry permit and used it.

He saw someone who WAS a stranger in the neighborhood and approached him to question him. Which as Watch Captain he had every right to do.

It was Zimmerman on the phone with 911, not Martin, which everyone said until they found out the truth and then shut up about.

 

How the Prosecutors will overcome that I dont know, not an Attorney, but it's going to take some pretty creative talking in the courtroom.

 

Final prediction. Zimmerman Guilty, Sanford burns anyway, Millions paid out in lawsuits.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

If that's the end result, then Sanford should burn. The court of public opinion is not only not justice, but pure

mob rule.

 

Tawana Brawley is the reason for Al Sharpton's notoriety. He saw her as a cash cow, only. Mr Racism Sharpton.

He doesn't give a damn about the plight of anything or anyone except himself and he used her for just that.

[DaveTN]

I just can’t dismiss this as a race issue. If I was a member of the black community and I had to yell racism to bring attention to this and get justice; so be it.

I’m not convinced race was a determining factor in Zimmerman picking Martin out, but I’m not sure it wasn’t. If I was the lawyers on either side I would be going through all the calls he made to Police and find out.
I think the bigger issue was Zimmerman wanting to be cop. He wanted to be a cop; that is no secret. He had a couple of obstacles in his way. His girlfriend had accused him of domestic violence and he had been arrested for assaulting a Police Officer during an altercation in a bar. No department was going to hire him.

It is made very clear to Neighborhood watch people they do not engage. I’m unfamiliar with Florida law. What “right” did he have as a neighborhood watch captain; do they have some kind of authority? Police Officers and licensed Security Guards have the training and ability to escalate the level of force used. He did not have that training or ability; he went right to deadly force. If he was “patrolling” the neighborhood why did he not have mace, a Taser, a baton or the ability to call backup?
He didn’t have any more right than any other citizen to do that, but when you try to approach someone that has committed no crime but is just suspicious to you, and they run in fear; you stop.

Trying to make Martin out to be a thug because he had smoked pot and talked about guns in laughable when he has no criminal record and your client has two documented acts of violence, carried a gun, and has now shot a kid to death.

[Reservoir Dog]

 Police Officers and licensed Security Guards have the training and ability to escalate the level of force used. He did not have that training or ability; he went right to deadly force.

 

True.  However the is no requirement for someone to start at the bottom of the force continuum and escalate up.  Anybody can enter into the force continuum at any level (even immediately to deadly force) if the situation justifies it.

[TMF]

So, perhaps I misunderstood... If the only reason he was charged was community outrage over race, why did the investigators recommend charges before any of the outrage took place? Seems to me if the DA was someone different Zimmerman would have been charged before any of this became news.

[jgradyc]

Here is the link to the unedited 911 call by Zimmerman. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L04Vh4do6bY

 

Key points:

Zimmerman says guy is acting suspicious, like he's on drugs.

Dispatcher (18sec into video) : Is he white, black, or hispanic?

Z: He looks black.

Z: Additional references to the kid. Something's wrong with him.

2:07 "He's running"

2:15: Car door opens.

2:25: Dispatch: Are you following him?

Yes (labored breathing. Wind noise )

We don't need you to do that.  (The dispatcher never tells Z to return to his vehicle.)

2:45 Wind noise stops. Zimmerman's voice returns to normal breathing.

4:12  The call ends. Zimmerman asks responders to call him when they get to the neighborhood, the implication being that he is still going to be looking around. (Note: That's a minute and a half where no chase was being done.)

 

Here is a map of everything that is known for sure: Zimmerman's truck, the house where Martin was staying, and where the body was found. http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/evidence-that-trayvon-martin-doubled-back

 

 

Here's my take on the map. Zimmerman is neighborhood watch. He has every right to continue to patrol. He has not been told not to continue to patrol. The dispatcher agrees to have the officer call him when he gets to the neighborhood.   Zimmerman is on the phone for 90 seconds after he loses sight of Martin and stops running.

 

The incident occurred about 100 yards from where Martin was staying.  I'm 65 and if I was being chased, I could cover 100 yards in less than 20 seconds.  Any 17-year-old should be able to jog 100 yards in 30 seconds, yet Zimmerman is on the phone for 90 seconds before hanging up.

 

It's obvious that Martin could have gotten home in that time. Yet the incident occurs over a hundred yards away, very close to where the chase stops initially. For some reason, Martin did not go home.

 

Now, lots of things could have happened, but what's the most logical? The most logical is that Martin doubled back and got the jump on Zimmerman, just as Zimmerman claims.

 

Other things could have happened, but a jury would have to believe that other thing happened "beyond a reasonable doubt."  I just don't see that happening.

Edited May 26, 2013 by jgradyc

[Randall53]

he went right to deadly force.

Your statement completely ignores the statements made by Zimmerman.
1. That he cried out for help repeatedly, but no help came.
2. That Zimmermans head was being bashed against the ground by someone younger and in much better shape and at least 4" taller, with several inches of reach on him and on top of him and would not stop the beating.
3. That Martin saw his gun and was trying to get it out of his holster, escalating the danger to Zimmerman.

This is a far cry from "went right to deadly force."

[jgradyc]

So, perhaps I misunderstood... If the only reason he was charged was community outrage over race, why did the investigators recommend charges before any of the outrage took place? Seems to me if the DA was someone different Zimmerman would have been charged before any of this became news.

The DA did not recommend any charges at the time of the incident. Zimmerman was questioned for five hours. He returned to the scene the next day with investigators. It was only after the community outrage that Zimmerman was charged. I think more than a week passed, but it's easy to find out on the internet.

[TMF]

The DA did not recommend any charges at the time of the incident. Zimmerman was questioned for five hours. He returned to the scene the next day with investigators. It was only after the community outrage that Zimmerman was charged. I think more than a week passed, but it's easy to find out on the internet.

That was not my question.

The officers investigating this shooting recommended charges be filed. Most folks here are stating that this was a good shoot and no charges should be filed, and were only filed due to race outrage. If this is true, then why would the officers investigating this recommend charges LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNGGGGGG before Sharpton and Jackson showed up to stir the pot???

Perhaps some of the LEOs around here can give an idea as to how often DAs choose not to follow the recommendations of investigating officers. I always got the impression that they tend to follow the recommendations. The original DA could have just as easily filed charges based on the recommendations from investigating officers, and then what would everyone's opinions be? I guess what I'm saying is folks who keep focusing on the original DA as proof that there is no case here are COMPLETELY ignoring the recommendations of the original investigating officers who disagreed with the DA. It happened, like it or not. Ask yourself why before you jump on the bandwagon that Zimmerman's actions were legal and justified.

[Randall53]

Not all officers were on that side. However, one of the most vvocal was a close friend of Martins father.

[DaveS]

Your statement completely ignores the statements made by Zimmerman.
3. That Martin saw his gun and was trying to get it out of his holster, escalating the danger to Zimmerman.

This is a far cry from "went right to deadly force."

Did Zman say this?

 

Dave

[DaveS]

Usually charges are filed and/or an arrest made. The case goes to the DA. Then the grand jury. The grand jury hands down the bill. However, the DA may choose not to go that far if he/she feels there is no case or not enough evidence to proceed.

 

This is "in the nutshell" and not the whole drawn out process.

 

Dave

[DaveTN]

 

Your statement completely ignores the statements made by Zimmerman.
1. That he cried out for help repeatedly, but no help came.
2. That Zimmermans head was being bashed against the ground by someone younger and in much better shape and at least 4" taller, with several inches of reach on him and on top of him and would not stop the beating.
3. That Martin saw his gun and was trying to get it out of his holster, escalating the danger to Zimmerman.

This is a far cry from "went right to deadly force."

 Where was Zimmerman’s gun prior to the confrontation, was he open carrying, was it in his hand? Did Martin see it?

You say Zimmerman says he shot martin while Martin was pounding his head in the ground. You want us to believe that Martin was trying to get control of Zimmerman’s gun, but then quit trying and gave Zimmerman free access to his gun while Martin grabbed his head and started banging it into the ground? That doesn’t make sense. Did Martin stop, try to withdrawal from the fight and Zimmerman shot him? These are things that need to be addressed in court.

[DaveS]

Your statement completely ignores the statements made by Zimmerman.
1. That he cried out for help repeatedly, but no help came.
2. That Zimmermans head was being bashed against the ground by someone younger and in much better shape and at least 4" taller, with several inches of reach on him and on top of him and would not stop the beating.
3. That Martin saw his gun and was trying to get it out of his holster, escalating the danger to Zimmerman.

This is a far cry from "went right to deadly force."

If TM had his hands full of Zman's head or ears, beating his head against the sidewalk trying to crack it open like a pee'can, how could he be trying to unholster a gun? I know it's possible but I still can't believe a 140 pound kid held down a 250 pound man. Maybe a 250 pound candy azz. There is a lot of Zmans testimony I don't buy!

 

Dave

[Reservoir Dog]

Perhaps some of the LEOs around here can give an idea as to how often DAs choose not to follow the recommendations of investigating officers. I always got the impression that they tend to follow the recommendations. The original DA could have just as easily filed charges based on the recommendations from investigating officers, and then what would everyone's opinions be?

 

 

DAs do not always follow what the investigator wants.  I have had it work both ways:  I have asked prosecutors the ask for bond on someone, only to have them recommend them to be released without bond.  Also, I had prosecutor charge someone where I did not feel there was sufficient evidence, only to have the prosecutor drop the charges at the preliminary hearing.

 

As an investigator, I personally went out of my to not make any recommendations to prosecutors regarding charges.  I did not feel that was my job.  My job was to investigate the incident, gather all the facts and evidence, and present that to the prosecutor and let them make the decision.  Most of the time, the prosecutor did what I felt was right, but on a few occasions, they did the opposite.

[RichardR]

Your statement completely ignores the statements made by Zimmerman.
1. That he cried out for help repeatedly, but no help came.
2. That Zimmermans head was being bashed against the ground by someone younger and in much better shape and at least 4" taller, with several inches of reach on him and on top of him and would not stop the beating.
3. That Martin saw his gun and was trying to get it out of his holster, escalating the danger to Zimmerman.

This is a far cry from "went right to deadly force."

If it doesn't fit the "Justice for Trayvon" narative they'll just ignore it, doesn't matter if Zimmerman was on the phone to 911, it doesn't matter that he was ambushed by Trayvon, it doesn't matter that he was having his head smashed repeatedly into the sidewalk or that he was screaming for help when he discharged his weapon.

A *white* hispanic killed a black, that's all that seems to matter.

[DaveTN]

 

If it doesn't fit the "Justice for Trayvon" narative they'll just ignore it, doesn't matter if Zimmerman was on the phone to 911, it doesn't matter that he was ambushed by Trayvon, it doesn't matter that he was having his head smashed repeatedly into the sidewalk or that he was screaming for help when he discharged his weapon.

A *white* hispanic killed a black, that's all that seems to matter.

 Some of us are questioning what Zimmerman did. I can’t speak for the others but I am white. From reading my posts or anyone else’s here do you think we are making this a race issue? The community is up in arms because they saw an injustice unfolding. You want to dismiss that as the community being racist?

[Randall53]

wow....simple. while beating his head, henotices the pistol, THEN tries toget ut....

[DaveTN]

 

Perhaps some of the LEOs around here can give an idea as to how often DAs choose not to follow the recommendations of investigating officers. I always got the impression that they tend to follow the recommendations.

I would guess that every department has their own policy’s on how they arrest and charge people. For most crimes I charged whatever I wanted and it had to be approved by Command. Then it went to the States Attorney for formal charges. Homicide was an exception. In a homicide case we did not define charges until we talked to the States Attorney; we had one on call 24 hours a day.

Our States Attorney’s Office charged what they saw fit. They also had their own investigators that were not part of the Police Department.

That’s only my experience; I don’t know how it works in that department in Florida.

[DaveS]

I am white also. I could care less about the race of the other parties involved here. I'm personally questioning Zmans actions. This whole thing is based on what Zman said, and I for one don't buy half of it. Zmans true colors have come out over the months and I question his character.

 

Dave S

[DaveTN]

 

wow....simple. while beating his head, henotices the pistol, THEN tries toget ut....

 So he had stopped the attack and was now trying to stop Zimmerman from shooting him?

[DaveTN]

 

I am white also. I could care less about the race of the other parties involved here. I'm personally questioning Zmans actions. This whole thing is based on what Zman said, and I for one don't buy half of it. Zmans true colors have come out over the months and I question his character.
 
Dave S

Zimmerman lied in sworn testimony. His wife was arrested for perjury for her part. If the Judge allows all this BS about Martin in, he will also have to allow the past bad acts of Zimmerman in. His lying under oath, domestic violence, attacking a cop; he’s toast as far as credibility.

OJ walked because three cops took the stand and lied. The jury decided to disregard their testimony and they were not left with enough for a conviction. If they throw out all statements made by Zimmerman; they will be left with a dead kid that did nothing wrong. I don't belive anything Zimmerman says.

[DaveS]

 
Zimmerman lied in sworn testimony. His wife was arrested for perjury for her part. If the Judge allows all this BS about Martin in, he will also have to allow the past bad acts of Zimmerman in. His lying under oath, domestic violence, attacking a cop; he’s toast as far as credibility.

OJ walked because three cops took the stand and lied. The jury decided to disregard their testimony and they were not left with enough for a conviction. If they throw out all statements made by Zimmerman; they will be left with a dead kid that did nothing wrong. I don't belive anything Zimmerman says.

I agree 100% Look at the times he went on tv without his lawyers knowing it to throw his sales pitch. If I was his lawyer, I'd fired him as a client! I'm not saying at all that TM was an angel. This is not about that. This is about was Zman "standing his ground" in fighting/shooting TM. Was TM "standing his ground" when he put the smack down on Zman. That's all this is about to me. I said it months ago on here and I repeat it now. "Had Zman stayed in his truck, we would not be reading this. Most people say Zman was standing his ground. Did not TM have the same right if he felt threatened by Zman? We can all speculate about this and that, but we only have one side of the story to go on. Unfortunately, that side of the story is of questionable character and a liar.

 

The jury has a tough job ahead of them! Susan Anthony got off in Florida, I guess Zman stands a chance too!

 

Dave

[DaveTN]

 

Most people say Zman was standing his ground. Did not TM have the same right if he felt threatened by Zman?

That’s a point I made in the threads when this happened. “He could have ran away”. But that’s the whole issue of the stand your ground laws we all want to protect. He was committing no crime, he had every right to be there, and he had absolutely no requirement to run from a stranger with no legal authority to stop him. He did run and Zimmerman chased him. At some point he decided to stop running, stand his ground, and engage his attacker. Bad news for him; his attacker had a gun, he didn’t.

[RobertNashville]

 
Zimmerman lied in sworn testimony. His wife was arrested for perjury for her part. If the Judge allows all this BS about Martin in, he will also have to allow the past bad acts of Zimmerman in. His lying under oath, domestic violence, attacking a cop; he’s toast as far as credibility.

OJ walked because three cops took the stand and lied. The jury decided to disregard their testimony and they were not left with enough for a conviction. If they throw out all statements made by Zimmerman; they will be left with a dead kid that did nothing wrong. I don't belive anything Zimmerman says.

You had me pretty much up to the unfounded allegation/assumption that Martin did nothing wrong.

 

If Zimmerman had disengaged and was leaving the area, as it seems to me the evidence at least suggests he was and if Martin, trying to be a badass tracked him down and attacked and put Zimmerman's life in danger the Martin did something VERY wrong, perhaps wrong enough that he would be facing a charge of attempted murder of Zimmerman.

 

To put it in the parlance of what we talk about every day here; even if Zimmerman was a "threat" to Martin at some point, if Zimmerman had/was disengaging then he was no longer an threat to Martin or anyone else and Martin then had ZERO justification for doing anything to him at that point.

 

Non of us have a right to murder someone; we have a right to defend ourselves, including the use of deadly force, to stop a threat...PERIOD.  Once the threat stops we have to stop.  It looks to me as if Martin didn't stop and crossed that line.

Edited May 26, 2013 by RobertNashville