Troubling news for the Trayvon Martin camp

[TMF]

Actually calling someone that is awfully close to civil rights intimidation, a class E Felony. If the act is provoked by any form of violence or threats you are done.

How is that even possible? What makes calling someone something vulgar any different that using a racial slur?

At any rate, y'all are nitpicking my post in order to ignore the point I made. Folks are prosecuted all the time for shooting a person in a place they have a legal right to be and aren't breaking any laws. The point I'm making here is INTENT. If your intent is to provoke an attack or violent behavior in order to use your weapon in self defense it doesn't matter how many times they bounce your head off the pavement.

[c.a.willard]

but if that was his intent all along, why bother calling the cops.  It seems to me if it was his intent to hunt TM down and kill him in cold blood the last thing in the world he would do is call the cops before hand.

[DaveS]

I have said that from the beginning, Martin utilized stand your ground and Z resorted to self defense. I am not saying either was wrong or right.

Exactly what I said months ago. "Stand your Ground" doesn't have any age limits, time limits, skin color requirements or dress codes that I know of. He'll get his day in court. We'll get to hear one side of the story.

 

Dave S

[Dolomite_supafly]

but if that was his intent all along, why bother calling the cops.  It seems to me if it was his intent to hunt TM down and kill him in cold blood the last thing in the world he would do is call the cops before hand.

And provide all kinds of evidence that would likely be brought up in court. And expert testimony regarding the call is worthless in my eyes. Each side has their witnesses supporting their claims. I could find an expert to opine that the screams on the tape are from leprichaun having he leg humped by a chupacabra.

 

If GZ wanted to attack TM he would have done it without making a call to police. If TM was in fear, and not doing anything wrong, he would have beat on the first door he seen. But rather than do that TM thought he would confront, try to intimidate and then begin to beat GZ in order to get away. TM was up to no good and this likely caused GZ to believe TM was acting in a suspicious manner.

 

We are told to not confront and be a good witness if at all possible. That is exactly what GZ was doing when TM attacked him. It is obvious by the phone call GZ was attempting to observe TM.

 

Anyone, including GZ, has the right to follow and observe a suspicious person. GZ even had the right to ask TM what his name is or what he is doing. TM didn't have to answer but GZ had every right to ask. I know I ask people all the time who they are and what they are doing on the road I live on. Some respond and some tell me to FO but it is still my right to ask. It lets those who might be up to no good that people are watching them.

[mikegideon]

Like I've been sayin'... these boys just like to argue :)

[RobertNashville]

Exactly what I said months ago. "Stand your Ground" doesn't have any age limits, time limits, skin color requirements or dress codes that I know of. He'll get his day in court. We'll get to hear one side of the story.

 

Dave S

Funny...I wasn't aware that "standing your ground" and violently attacking someone was the same thing.  :shrug:
 

Also, last I heard, having the legal right to stand your ground didn't entail any requirement to actually do so and it certainly isn't always the smartest thing to do.

[DaveS]

Reckon why Zman reported to the police that TM was running away? I'm still baffled by that one....

 

Dave S

[No_0ne]

I could find an expert to opine that the screams on the tape are from leprichaun having he leg humped by a chupacabra.

 

What a weird visual that generates...

[mikegideon]

I could find an expert to opine that the screams on the tape are from leprichaun having he leg humped by a chupacabra.

 

What a weird visual that generates...

 

Happens all the time in that part of Florida :)

[RobertNashville]

Reckon why Zman reported to the police that TM was running away? I'm still baffled by that one....

 

Dave S

What's baffling about it?  I presume he reported that to the police that Trayvon was running away because at that time he was running away. :shrug:

 

Nothing would prevent Trayvon from "coming back" which he obviously did since had he not, there couldn't have been a confrontation.

Edited June 14, 2013 by RobertNashville

[Patton]

How is that even possible? What makes calling someone something vulgar any different that using a racial slur?

You can say about any name you wanted but if it is to entice a fight it is a crime. If it leads to violence the Feds get involved.

At any rate, y'all are nitpicking my post in order to ignore the point I made. Folks are prosecuted all the time for shooting a person in a place they have a legal right to be and aren't breaking any laws. The point I'm making here is INTENT. If your intent is to provoke an attack or violent behavior in order to use your weapon in self defense it doesn't matter how many times they bounce your head off the pavement.

No I get what you are saying and I see the relativity to this case. However like usual the first person to bring up the racism(Sharpton, Jackson, and the Martin's) are the real racist here.

[Dolomite_supafly]

You can say about any name you wanted but if it is to entice a fight it is a crime. If it leads to violence the Feds get involved.
No I get what you are saying and I see the relativity to this case. However like usual the first person to bring up the racism(Sharpton, Jackson, and the Martin's) are the real racist here.

 

So if I call someone an idiot (or any other name) and they decide to fight me because of it I am in the wrong? I don't think so.

[TripleDigitRide]

Actually calling someone that is awfully close to civil rights intimidation, a class E Felony. If the act is provoked by any form of violence or threats you are done.

How is that even possible? What makes calling someone something vulgar any different that using a racial slur?



At any rate, y'all are nitpicking my post in order to ignore the point I made. Folks are prosecuted all the time for shooting a person in a place they have a legal right to be and aren't breaking any laws. The point I'm making here is INTENT. If your intent is to provoke an attack or violent behavior in order to use your weapon in self defense it doesn't matter how many times they bounce your head off the pavement.

Nitpicking? Not only are you using poor analogies, you're also implying that you somehow had the power to read Zimmerman's mind during the time ofbthe incident.

There is zero proof, anywhere, that Zimmerman had the intent to engage in a physical altercation with Martin.

If I hear a noise in my backyard and go outside to investigate, this doesn't mean I am doing so with the intent to do anything other than find out what's going on. Once there, if I am put in the position to defend my life, property or family, I will take the necessary measures.

There are ZERO facts to back up any claims that Zimmerman intended on physically harming Martin in any way, shape or form. None.

You can presume and assume all you want, but the facts [as we know them to be] speak for themselves. If you consider him guilty, it's souly based on emotion and the fact that you may have handled the situation differently. If you are comfortable with the justice system operating in such a fashion, let's hope you are never in the position to be judged by a group of your peers who would have chosen to handle any given situation differently than yourself. Or you could convince yourself that you'd never find yourself in such position.

I have no problem with someone having an opinion opposite of my own, but please back it up with some facts. Afterall, this is a situation where a man's freedom is at stake. I, for one, do not take such a situation lightly, even if I have no dog in the hunt.

We also must not forget, law enforcement initially concluded that not only did Zimmerman not commit a crime when shooting Martin, he also did not commit a crime leading up to the shooting. As far as I know, they still are not claiming he was guilty of a crime leading up to the shooting.

To me, it seems this case wouldn't even be going to trial, had it not been for the emotional outcry from the community. Had Martin been gunned down on his way home from the store by some gangbanger on the street corner, we wouldn't even know his name.
Edited June 14, 2013 by TripleDigitRide

[Patton]

So if I call someone an idiot (or any other name) and they decide to fight me because of it I am in the wrong? I don't think so.

Let me direct you to http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime_laws_in_the_United_States
I normally don't cite Wikipedia but on this topic it's right on. Edited June 14, 2013 by Patton

[jgradyc]

Did the 911 call help or hurt Zimmerman?  If he hadn't made the call, would this case still have gotten such widespread attention? Would Zimmerman still be in as much trouble as he his now?

 

This is a serious question. I have to wonder if it was really the wisest thing to do if I found myself in a similar situation.

[c.a.willard]

In the media the 911 call hurt him, that's not because of the call itself but by the editing done by the media.  I think at the trial the 911 call will most likely help him.  

 

If i found myself in a similar situation i know i would call, but i would also stay on the line with the 911 center until police got there, if he would have done that we'd have a much clearer understanding of the whole altercation.  Before this incident i think i would have most likely called but not stay on the line much like Z did.  

[Dolomite_supafly]

Let me direct you to http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime_laws_in_the_United_States
I normally don't cite Wikipedia but on this topic it's right on.

 

Again, show me where I can be prosecuted for a hate crime for calling someone a name, any name.

 

Now if I call them a (protected) name and follow it up with violence I can be charged but not for name calling alone. As a matter of fact I can call someone an idiot then follow it up with violence and it is not a hate crime, that is unless idiots are now a protected class.

 

I have looked all through the Wikipedia link and under the crimes there is no category for name calling.

 

I still stand by original statement.

[Sam1]

Thanks to Dave for keeping everyone engaged in this thread, it continues to be an entertaining read!

[DaveS]

Thanks to Dave for keeping everyone engaged in this thread, it continues to be an entertaining read!

Don't thank me yet....

Where is Zman's "Defensive wounds". He fought with TM, surely he got a couple licks in and didn't go straight to deadly force...or did he?

 

 

Dave S

[mikegideon]

Don't thank me yet....

Where is Zman's "Defensive wounds". He fought with TM, surely he got a couple licks in and didn't go straight to deadly force...or did he?

 

 

Dave S

 

He was beating the hell out of Trayvon with his face. Didn't you see the pictures? :)

[DaveTN]

He fought with TM, surely he got a couple licks in and didn't go straight to deadly force...or did he?

Sure he did. He was older and so out of shape that he couldn’t get this skinny kid off him, but he was strong enough to gain control of his weapon while Martin was trying to pull it from his holster; and kill him. I mean if you believe in those kinds of fairy tales.
 

[DaveS]

They are a lot of questions I have on both sides. I guess I'll have to read the book and watch the movie to get answers.

 

Dave S

[Sam1]

Don't thank me yet....
Where is Zman's "Defensive wounds". He fought with TM, surely he got a couple licks in and didn't go straight to deadly force...or did he?


Dave S

Knots on the back of his head, broken nose, red marks and scratches on his face/side of his head... Oh and the cuts and abrasions that were bleeding out.

If someone gets attacked unless you're a badass cage fighter, you're going to go into defensive mode, not offensive so Z is not going to have busted up knuckles and a strained wrist from punching back

[DaveS]

Knots on the back of his head, broken nose, red marks and scratches on his face/side of his head... Oh and the cuts and abrasions that were bleeding out.

If someone gets attacked unless you're a badass cage fighter, you're going to go into defensive mode, not offensive so Z is not going to have busted up knuckles and a strained wrist from punching back

But he had the strength and stamina to wrestle TM's arms and keep him from getting his gun, yet have the mindset (was he not dazed, shocked or anything, right?) to draw his gun and shoot the kid? According to Zman, (yes I seen the pictures, we are currently using them as training aids) he was slugged in the face, received a brain numbing punch, then said TM got on top of him and beat his head off the sidewalk multiple times. Yet he had the strength to fight to keep his gun, but could roll 140 pounds off him? I don't buy it! And by the way he wasn't "bleeding out".

 

If someone punches me, my first instinct is to punch back. I'm not going to get pommeled and not get a lick in. Then when all else fails.....

 

Dave S

[RobertNashville]

Don't thank me yet....

Where is Zman's "Defensive wounds". He fought with TM, surely he got a couple licks in and didn't go straight to deadly force...or did he?

 

 

Dave S

Why don't you tell us DAVES...you seem to have all the info warped up in a pretty box with a bow on top. ;)

Do you know with certainty that Zimmerman had no defensive wounds???

 

Are you somehow privy to all the evidence that us mere mortals don't have access to???