Troubling news for the Trayvon Martin camp

[RichardR]

Folks, Zman's injuries to his head is not consistent with what he says happened. Thirteen years as an MP/Game Warden, 26 years as FireFighter/EMT, and the past couple years in LE, tells me his head DID NOT get beat off the sidewalk multiple times as he claims. The evidence and injuries are not there. I'm sorry my opinion don't fit your needs or agendas. Just my opinion and how I see things. Look at his "melon". What do you see? Where are the cuts? Does it at all show where his skull was smashed against the sidewalk? Show me the blood smears and show me the abrasions consistent with that type of injury? You can't. You see a cut where he bounced his head off the sidewalk when TM knocked him out, and one maybe from being kicked or hit in the head. You can't show me nothing else! Zman is a liar, and he has to pay! That's my OPINION, and mine alone! I left Sanford on Monday as I did not like what I seen. Oh well.....I stand by my guns on this! If you stand by yours, put your money where your mouth is, and donate to Zman...he needs it!!

Honorably signed....

Dave S

[Guest RedLights&Sirens]

I really wish I could see some close ups of the injuries. I am not trying to fan any flames and am not taking an official side on this but heres the thing... head injuries bleed, ALOT. Im not saying Z didnt get the shit beat out of him because he may have, I wasnt there. I will say it wont take much to make the pic above as bloody as it is. I have had head injuries and treated plenty of others.

Again, not taking sides just saying. I havent seen all of the evidence nor was I a witness. Just my personal and proffessional experience based on a photo.

[vontar]

Texas is a different place.

How about the case in Texas Nov. 14, 2007 where the 61 year old shot and killed two burglars in the back as they were leaving his neighbor's home, with a detective watching while he did it?  (Joe Horn) He was on the phone with LE, them telling him to stand down, a plain clothed detective in an unmarked car at the curb watching and waiting for back up when Mr. Horn ordered the two men to halt and then proceeded to kill them when they refused.  http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=5278638&page=2

Mr. Horn was "No Billed" by the Grand Jury.

 Texas as the commercial says is a whole another country.  They had laws there at least at that time you could shot to protect yours or a neighbors property.  That is where the No bill came in.

[mikegideon]

 

 

So depending on EXACTLY what happened you could get different verdicts...and if the evidence supports the verdict...I'm OK which ever way it goes. 

 

I'm betting the evidence doesn't exist. I'm betting they'll present what we've already seen, and try to spin it. Just realize that some of the folks that screamed the loudest are the ones that don't believe Z, or any of the rest of us, should be allowed to carry a gun in public to begin with. Z is guilty in their minds because of that. If he is wrongfully convicted because of racism, it's bad. If he's wrongfully convicted because of libtardism, it's even worse. 

[DaveS]

Folks, Zman's injuries to his head is not consistent with what he says happened. Thirteen years as an MP/Game Warden, 26 years as FireFighter/EMT, and the past couple years in LE, tells me his head DID NOT get beat off the sidewalk multiple times as he claims. The evidence and injuries are not there. I'm sorry my opinion don't fit your needs or agendas. Just my opinion and how I see things. Look at his "melon". What do you see? Where are the cuts? Does it at all show where his skull was smashed against the sidewalk? Show me the blood smears and show me the abrasions consistent with that type of injury? You can't. You see a cut where he bounced his head off the sidewalk when TM knocked him out, and one maybe from being kicked or hit in the head. You can't show me nothing else! Zman is a liar, and he has to pay! That's my OPINION, and mine alone! I left Sanford on Monday as I did not like what I seen. Oh well.....I stand by my guns on this! If you stand by yours, put your money where your mouth is, and donate to Zman...he needs it!!

Honorably signed....

Dave S

 

Based on that photo, where is the proof, that his melon was bounced repeatedly off the side walk as he contends?

 

Dave

[DaveTN]

Was Zimmerman’s medical report not done the next day?

Wasn’t there an autopsy report that showed no DNA from Zimmerman under Martins nails and no blood on his sleeves or cuffs?

 

 

 

[RichardR]

Based on that photo, where is the proof, that his melon was bounced repeatedly off the side walk as he contends?

Dave

Ummm the blood?

What do you want Dave? Did you want his brains coming out of his ears before he dared defend himself?

Jeesh man at this point I'm guessing you voted for Obama.

[mikegideon]

Ummm the blood?

What do you want Dave? Did you want his brains coming out of his ears before he dared defend himself?

Jeesh man at this point I'm guessing you voted for Obama.

 

No need to get nasty  :rofl:

[Worriedman]

The case I referenced in Texas the guy was doing nothing illegal. In fact, he was on the phone with a 911 operator saying "I'm standing my ground" just before he was attacked. He was absolutely in a place where he had a legal right to be. The other guys broke the law by assaulting him, yet this guy is behind bars. Care to guess why?

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-06-27/texas-stand-your-ground-sentence/55868954/1
 

#1, because he is an idiot who tried to game the system:
 

One neighbor testified that Rodriguez, who had a concealed handgun license, bragged about his guns and told her a person could avoid prosecution in a shooting by telling authorities you were in fear of your life and were standing your ground and defending yourself. During the trial's punishment phase, neighbors, former co-workers and Rodriguez's ex-wife testified that Rodriguez was abusive, a bad neighbor and that he once shot a dog.

 

 

#2, he was not on HIS property but in the neighbor's driveway.  He was not "getting beat down", no physical violence had taken place, he had not been attacked, he was the one who approached them, on the dead man's property :
 

Defense attorneys argued Rodriguez was defending himself when one of the men lunged at him and he had less than a second to respond.

 

Then he shot two more people.  I suspect the other two guys were backing up and not pressing forward after he capped the first guy.  With two surviving participants and a yard full of witnesses, this scenario is quite a bit different.  Would be kind of hard to hold your gun, and a phone while getting pounded by three guys.

Eye witnesses may make a big difference in the Zimmerman case, (are there any) but it bears very little resemblance to the one you bring up.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Worriedman

[Patton]

.. head injuries bleed, ALOT.

I have seen two deaths in which the head wounds bleed very little. One a self inflicted 45acp wound to the side of the head with 2 cups of blood at the most. The next was a 9 story fall in which the mans head hit first. This was unbelievable with no more than a single drop of blood.

[DaveS]

Ummm the blood?

What do you want Dave? Did you want his brains coming out of his ears before he dared defend himself?

Jeesh man at this point I'm guessing you voted for Obama.

No I didn't vote for Obama. I want to see abrasions and/or bruising to back up his claim of having his melon bounced off the sidewalk multiple times. I'ts just not there. I don't see the proof! Sorry. Even if I was investigating a domestic assault, I see no proof to back up Zman's claim of TM beating his melon off the sidewalk multiple times. The abrasions and bruising consistent with what he claims is not there that I see. And I fear, that experts will testify to those facts during the trial!

 

Dave S

[TripleDigitRide]

So, if someone has a different opinion they aren't thinking logically? I'm fully prepared to accept that Zimmerman is innocent. I have not seen that from anyone here who believes differently..... yet folks like me are the closed minded ones?

 

I'm sorry, but I am trying very hard to find logic in some of the arguments where Zimmerman is guilty of any sort of crime, much less murder. It would be nice if some of you would please tell me the exact moment any crime was committed by Zimmerman. 

 

Was it when he thought Martin appeared suspicious?

 

Was it when he exited his vehicle?

 

Was it when he began to follow Martin on foot?

 

Was it when he actually shot Martin? 

 

As far as I can tell, Zimmerman didn't break any laws, with the exception of , possibly, at the moment when he pulled the trigger. Unless you have more information about the case than those of us in the general public, it's beyond me how anyone could possibly have him pegged as a murderer. 

 

If he didn't break any laws up to the point of the face to face confrontation, his guilt must revolve around this very short time frame. According to Zimmerman -  the only real witness as to what happen in those very moments - Martin attacked him, and Zimmerman acted in self defense. There are police photos that prove Zimmerman was physically assaulted, so as far as I am concerned, that only helps prove a case of self defense. 

 

While I wasn't there to witness what exactly happened, neither were any of you. With that being said, none of us can come to our own premature conclusion with anything other than what's been reported by the media. Unless I missed something (if I have, please point it out) there is zero firm evidence that Zimmerman attacked Martin first. 

 

You can argue that you would not have pursued Martin, had you been in Zimmerman's shoes. You can argue that you would have done any number of things differently, but that hardly makes Zimmerman guilty of murder. 

 

As I said before, there's undoubtedly going to be evidence revealed in court that has yet to be reported through the media. Until then, I'll be trying to understand how anyone already has him guilty as charged.

[DaveS]

No need to get nasty  :rofl:

lol

[vontar]

@

TripleDigitRide

 

 

I think it comes down to, did he start it.

 

as in example, you can't start a fight and then use stand your ground defense to shoot someone.

 

I am however trying not to follow this to closely. 

Edited June 13, 2013 by vontar

[DaveS]

I'm sorry, but I am trying very hard to find logic in some of the arguments where Zimmerman is guilty of any sort of crime, much less murder. It would be nice if some of you would please tell me the exact moment any crime was committed by Zimmerman. 

 

Was it when he thought Martin appeared suspicious?

 

Was it when he exited his vehicle?

 

Was it when he began to follow Martin on foot?

 

Was it when he actually shot Martin? 

 

As far as I can tell, Zimmerman didn't break any laws, with the exception of , possibly, at the moment when he pulled the trigger. Unless you have more information about the case than those of us in the general public, it's beyond me how anyone could possibly have him pegged as a murderer. 

 

If he didn't break any laws up to the point of the face to face confrontation, his guilt must revolve around this very short time frame. According to Zimmerman -  the only real witness as to what happen in those very moments - Martin attacked him, and Zimmerman acted in self defense. There are police photos that prove Zimmerman was physically assaulted, so as far as I am concerned, that only helps prove a case of self defense. 

 

While I wasn't there to witness what exactly happened, neither were any of you. With that being said, none of us can come to our own premature conclusion with anything other than what's been reported by the media. Unless I missed something (if I have, please point it out) there is zero firm evidence that Zimmerman attacked Martin first. 

 

You can argue that you would not have pursued Martin, had you been in Zimmerman's shoes. You can argue that you would have done any number of things differently, but that hardly makes Zimmerman guilty of murder. 

 

As I said before, there's undoubtedly going to be evidence revealed in court that has yet to be reported through the media. Until then, I'll be trying to understand how anyone already has him guilty as charged.

I agree TDR...but the "other" person who knows what happened is dead. We'll have to wait and see what the jury says. We'll all have to live with that decision want we?

 

Dave S

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Ummm the blood?

What do you want Dave? Did you want his brains coming out of his ears before he dared defend himself?

Jeesh man at this point I'm guessing you voted for Obama.

EXACTLY. (not the obama part).

 

I have always contended that the head unjury was due to either to him being hit from behind, or from him hitting his head as he went down.

 

The grass stains tell me that the grounded part of the fight was likely NOT on pavement UNLESS it was at the edge of pavement and ONLY his head and shoulders were on the pavement and the rest of his body was in the grass.

 

But frankly it DOES NOT MATTER whether he was getting punched in the face laying on pavement or laying on the ground because EITHER is deadly force in that situation. If the pressure is vertical and you are pinned against the ground and cannot get out of it then you are likely to be unconscious soon. So even if it was not bounced off pavement multiple times it was still struck, most likely from behind which leads me to belive Martin hit him first and did it when his back was turned....

 

And if the fall caused the injury then Martin STILL CAUSED an injury that combined with the continued assault would have led any reasonable person to conclude that they were in real imminent risk of grave bodily injury or death. Unarmed people kill people every day and teenagers kill people just as dead as 40 year olds do....so stop looking at it as an "unarmed child murdered by a wannabe cop" and look at whether the fight even had to happen (BOTH could have disengaged) and whether Z was in reasonable fear of grave bodily injury or death. If so then the law is pretty clear and WHY he was not charged initially.

[RobertNashville]

Folks, Zman's  injuries to his head is not consistent with what he says happened. Thirteen years as an MP/Game Warden, 26 years as FireFighter/EMT, and the past couple years in LE, tells me his head DID NOT get beat off the sidewalk multiple times as he claims. The evidence and injuries are not there. I'm sorry my opinion don't fit your needs or agendas. Just my opinion and how I see things. Look at his "melon". What do you see? Where are the cuts? Does it at all show where his skull was smashed against the sidewalk? Show me the blood smears and show me the abrasions consistent with that type of injury? You can't. You see a cut where he bounced his head off the sidewalk when TM knocked him out, and one maybe from being kicked or hit in the head. You can't show me nothing else! Zman is a liar, and he has to pay! That's my OPINION, and mine alone! I left Sanford on Monday as I did not like what I seen. Oh well.....I stand by my guns on this! If you stand by yours, put your money where your mouth is, and donate to Zman...he needs it!!
 
Honorably signed....
 
Dave S

I guess that settles that - it seems like FL is going through a lot of unnecessary trouble with a trial and all; they could have just had you explain it all to them. :rofl:

 

Unless you were there your armchair quarterbacking is worth no more than that of anyone else no matter how many "consistent with" this or that you throw around.

Edited June 13, 2013 by RobertNashville

[RobertNashville]

If you were Zman or LEO, where is your probable cause to stalk, pursue, or even question TM' when he was not committing any crime? Where is it?

 

Dave S

Did he "pursue"  DaveTN said he chased Trayvon down...which one of you is correct?

 

Zimmerman doesn't need "probable cause" to watch someone in his neighborhood who appears to be acting suspiciously (or even if he isn't acting suspiciously).

 

Did Zimmerman "question" Trayvon?  If it did, was Zimmerman's questions "consistent" whit proper procedure?  ;)

[DaveS]

??? Did you watch a CSI re-run last night. ;)

 

Unless you were there your armchair quarterbacking is worth no more than that of anyone else no matter how many "consistent with" this or that you throw around.

Awesome commentary RN! Sorry, I don't watch much TV.

 

 

Dave S

Edited June 15, 2013 by DaveS

[DaveS]

Did he "pursue"  DaveTN said he chased Trayvon down...which one of you is correct?

 

Zimmerman doesn't need "probable cause" to watch someone in his neighborhood who appears to be acting suspiciously (or even if he isn't acting suspiciously).

 

Did Zimmerman "question" Trayvon?  If it did, was Zimmerman's questions "consistent" whit proper procedure?  ;)

You just don't know do ya? Why is this becoming so personal with you RN? This  is all based on our opinions and thats all. Dude, Home Dawg. Bro what ever you want to be called , you are way too into this thing!!!

Yes, he chased TM down....what ever you want to call it. And I'll say for the 50th time...I HOPE HE IS FOUND NOT GUILTY. That will be his justice!!

 

Dave S

Edited June 13, 2013 by DaveS

[RobertNashville]

Ummm the blood?

What do you want Dave? Did you want his brains coming out of his ears before he dared defend himself?

Jeesh man at this point I'm guessing you voted for Obama.

Nah...DAVES just wants everyone to agree that he's spoken the final word on the matter and we should all just recognize that. ;)

Edited June 13, 2013 by RobertNashville

[RobertNashville]

You just don't know do ya? Why is this becoming so personal with you RN? This  is all based on our opinions and thats all. Dude, Home Dawg. Bro what ever you want to be called , you are way too into this thing!!!
Yes, he chased TM down....what ever you want to call it. And I'll say for the 50th time...I HOPE HE IS FOUND NOT GUILTY. That will be his justice!!
 
Dave S

Opinions?  Really?  Why seems like just a couple of posts above you were giving us you insight based on your forensic experience...are you saying now it was just "opinion"???  :shrug:

 

 

Oh yeah...I'm much to "in" to it...I mean; I'm almost the only one who has posted in this 25 page thread, right "dude"?

 

ROTFLMAO :rofl:

Edited June 13, 2013 by RobertNashville

[mikegideon]

Y'all tell me this... If Zimmerman was a homo, would you let him be a scout leader? 

[DaveS]

Some folks aren't looking at the whole picture. They stopped thinking logically as soon as Zimmerman exited his vehicle.

I've listened to this a hundred times. Zman said he was wearing a "gray" hoodie. When and where did Trayvon ditch the black hooded raincoat the defense showed him wearing just minutes before his was killed? Just curious as to why that hasn't come up.

 

Dave S

Edited June 13, 2013 by DaveS

[Erik88]

Based on that photo, where is the proof, that his melon was bounced repeatedly off the side walk as he contends?

 

Dave

 

How much evidence do you need Dave? Look at his face and head. How many blows should he have received before waiting to react?

 

 

 

If you were Zman or LEO, where is your probable cause to stalk, pursue, or even question TM' when he was not committing any crime? Where is it?

 

Dave S

 

I think we all agree ZMan didn't have the authority to follow him but there is zero evidence that we know of that suggests this happened. Even if he did follow him that doesn't make it ok for Martin to physically attack Zman.