Troubling news for the Trayvon Martin camp

[mikegideon]

Dear brother and sister opiners; i feel i have lost my "implacable calm" in this issue. I simply cant stand this anymore.  I have a burning need to speak to what i think this case is really about.   Brothers and sisters; this case aint about the possibly wrongful and tragic shooting of a teenager; it's about political opportunism of the worst kind in about a 50/50 carpetbagger/"delightful rustic" state that is of great importance to both political parties. 

 

To my fellow posters who will be agast and "outraged" at this callous statement; please know that im ok with that.  This is a place of opinions and discussion; that means that some aint gonna like the opinions posted; especially this one.  Havin said that, this is my "Trayvon-George" manifesto and my mind's made up.  For once, i aint gonna argue about it.  I'm like Pilate; ive called for the "wash bowl".  I find no fault in zimmerman and think that if trayvon would have minded his own business he would be alive today to continue his thuggish ways.  The big lesson for everybody is that if everybody had have minded their business and acted sensibly, this tragedy, now marketed as a political opportunity would have never happened. 

 

Erck did a good job with the objective facts of this case.  I'm gonna talk about the political implications of this case.

 

I contend that the extremely white politico carpetbaggers (...and some good ole boy opportunists...) from both up north and down south, both democrat and republican, could care less about "justice for trayvon", george zimmerman, the people of the state of florida, or anyone else in this case.  They care about walking a political titerope between about a 50/50 democrat/republican population and veer on the side that needs "reassuring" to make sure they save their stinkin hides; and thus keeping their stinkin jobs in tact.  They like bein in power, and they like it well enough to use the powers of their positions in unjust ways to keep themselves in power.  They are bold enough to take the chance of using the courts and their position(s) in unjust, even criminal, ways to perpetrate this disgraceful travesty of justice.  They are doin it now, i think, because they know that the chances of federal prosecution for any misdeeds by the judiciary or the prosecutors in this case will never be brought.  It's all about politics, nothing else. Politics in the state of florida first, and red meat for the blue states and "low information children" on a national level next.

 

This thing aint about justice for all; its about buying votes and support in upcomming elections.   The fall out, of course, is the murdering of the rule of law and justice.  That's what the governor has done and exactly what the prosecuting attorney and judge(s) are doing.  This territory of florida is polarized black and white with the "innocent"/"guilty" thing split right down party lines; and the political class knows it.  As i remember, the black/white population ratio in samford is about 25/75 with a 15/85 ratio in the county; but the general population of florida (...political...) is in the 50/50 range.  That's why the elections are so hot in florida.  Both parties have to go after votes on both sides of the political spectrum; and that's exactly what is goin on here. 

 

The sad fact of this case is that one 18 year old aint gonna get any older and one little guy tryin to take care of his neighborhood have had their lives ended, or changed for the worst.  The people of florida will become more cynical than the already are due the twisting of the law and the use of courts to satisfy political purposes, the citizens of this community (...and others...) will retreat further behind their security fences and be even more afraid of their neighbors they dont know, the "tribalism" this whole dammed thing brings out in people will become stronger, and the rule of law and ethics in elected officials will become less (...if that's possible...).   In the end, nobody is gonna win no matter what happens, and there will damn sure be no justice for anybody in this sorry case.   The political class, in their stinkin lust for votes and pantering to the "low information children" has seen to it.

 

That's how i see this whole sad, sorry, disgraceful spectacle.  It aint about justice, its about tribal warfare and political calculations.

 

Leroy

 

Yep :)

[DaveS]

Well said! :clap: 

 

Dave

[Links2k]

Dear brother and sister opiners; i feel i have lost my "implacable calm" in this issue. I simply cant stand this anymore.  I have a burning need to speak to what i think this case is really about.   Brothers and sisters; this case aint about the possibly wrongful and tragic shooting of a teenager; it's about political opportunism of the worst kind in about a 50/50 carpetbagger/"delightful rustic" state that is of great importance to both political parties. 
 
To my fellow posters who will be agast and "outraged" at this callous statement; please know that im ok with that.  This is a place of opinions and discussion; that means that some aint gonna like the opinions posted; especially this one.  Havin said that, this is my "Trayvon-George" manifesto and my mind's made up.  For once, i aint gonna argue about it.  I'm like Pilate; ive called for the "wash bowl".  I find no fault in zimmerman and think that if trayvon would have minded his own business he would be alive today to continue his thuggish ways.  The big lesson for everybody is that if everybody had have minded their business and acted sensibly, this tragedy, now marketed as a political opportunity would have never happened. 
 
Erck did a good job with the objective facts of this case.  I'm gonna talk about the political implications of this case.
 
I contend that the extremely white politico carpetbaggers (...and some good ole boy opportunists...) from both up north and down south, both democrat and republican, could care less about "justice for trayvon", george zimmerman, the people of the state of florida, or anyone else in this case.  They care about walking a political titerope between about a 50/50 democrat/republican population and veer on the side that needs "reassuring" to make sure they save their stinkin hides; and thus keeping their stinkin jobs in tact.  They like bein in power, and they like it well enough to use the powers of their positions in unjust ways to keep themselves in power.  They are bold enough to take the chance of using the courts and their position(s) in unjust, even criminal, ways to perpetrate this disgraceful travesty of justice.  They are doin it now, i think, because they know that the chances of federal prosecution for any misdeeds by the judiciary or the prosecutors in this case will never be brought.  It's all about politics, nothing else. Politics in the state of florida first, and red meat for the blue states and "low information children" on a national level next.
 
This thing aint about justice for all; its about buying votes and support in upcomming elections.   The fall out, of course, is the murdering of the rule of law and justice.  That's what the governor has done and exactly what the prosecuting attorney and judge(s) are doing.  This territory of florida is polarized black and white with the "innocent"/"guilty" thing split right down party lines; and the political class knows it.  As i remember, the black/white population ratio in samford is about 25/75 with a 15/85 ratio in the county; but the general population of florida (...political...) is in the 50/50 range.  That's why the elections are so hot in florida.  Both parties have to go after votes on both sides of the political spectrum; and that's exactly what is goin on here. 
 
The sad fact of this case is that one 18 year old aint gonna get any older and one little guy tryin to take care of his neighborhood have had their lives ended, or changed for the worst.  The people of florida will become more cynical than the already are due the twisting of the law and the use of courts to satisfy political purposes, the citizens of this community (...and others...) will retreat further behind their security fences and be even more afraid of their neighbors they dont know, the "tribalism" this whole dammed thing brings out in people will become stronger, and the rule of law and ethics in elected officials will become less (...if that's possible...).   In the end, nobody is gonna win no matter what happens, and there will damn sure be no justice for anybody in this sorry case.   The political class, in their stinkin lust for votes and pantering to the "low information children" has seen to it.
 
That's how i see this whole sad, sorry, disgraceful spectacle.  It aint about justice, its about tribal warfare and political calculations.
 
leroy

Makes sense. This is the best post that I have read on this subject in the last year. You can bet that when politians get involved, the outcome is all about them.

[Jonnin]

I dunno about that list Erik.  Its a good list, but there are alternative viewpoints to everything that exists lol. 

 

1) Yes, you are correct.  But no, you are wrong lol.  That is, factually you are correct, but the race card can either be played (by the lawyers etc --- to most of the masses race is determined by looking at someone, period and it WORKS to play the race card here as it LOOKS like white vs black)  or it can be a hole card (stack the jury with racial sympathizers --- intentionally or unknowingly --- it has happened before). 

 

2 a mild character builder (GZ is on the neighborhood watch, excuses a little bit of curiosity/policing actions and gives him a bit of a reputation boost as a good guy).  However back to the race card again:  this opens up playing it (he was PROFILING blah blah blah).  Its a gimme for the prosecution to go there....

 

3)  The key here is what happened when they met up and fought. Which may never be known.

 

4) biased presentation.   Devil's advocate says that GZ was injured after he attacked TM and TM defended himself, GZ gets the worst of it and goes for his gun.   I think this is BS, but PROVE it -- goes back to 3...

 

5) important, could resolve 3 & 4 if witness is credible.

 

6) Audio analysis is extremely good.  GZ lives.  It had to be one or the other.  You got a live person and a recording and a computer, match it up.  Probably (almost certainly), TM voice samples exist as well.  This should be easy to resolve.  I cannot blame a human for confusion here --- even with whatever agenda he could make a mistake. 

 

7) That is the problem, GZ has a fair bit of questionable behaviors that are not helping his case at all.   Including trying to dupe the judge over his finances, duh?

 

8) The LEOs are witnesses to the "crime scene" (for lack of a better term) and will get their say if the defense lawyer has any sense.

 

But the real big one is the last:

the jury does NOT have to prove murder 1 here.   You have other stuff, manslaughter for example, and the civil case that comes after can take all his stuff for the rest of his life.   You can prove the lower degrees of murder/manslaughter/etc without as much burden of proof...  the intent/motive/premeditation stuff is not needed for that....

 

So while its a good list, it does not change a thing.   Personally? I think it will be hard to prove even manslaughter.   But I expect the race card and a 3 ring circus out of this mess.  

Edited May 29, 2013 by Jonnin

[RobertNashville]

...the jury does NOT have to prove murder 1 here.   You have other stuff, manslaughter for example, and the civil case that comes after can take all his stuff for the rest of his life.   You can prove the lower degrees of murder/manslaughter/etc without as much burden of proof...  the intent/motive/premeditation stuff is not needed for that....

 

I don't believe lower charges can be considered by a jury unless they have been included up front...to the best of my knowledge Zimmerman is charged only with murder 2; nothing else (at least nothing I've heard).

 

Civil case issue depends on whether FL has a shield law (as TN does) and how it's applied.  Besides; what good is winning a "civil case" anyway if the the person you sue doesn't have anything.

[DaveS]

 

  Besides; what good is winning a "civil case" anyway if the the person you sue doesn't have anything.

Exactly right. Zman has nothing. He's taking donations through his website. He just got sued for $27,000.00 from a security company. He still owes another one $40,000.00 for services. His current body guards charges him $7,000.00 a WEEK for body guard services. He says he needs $30,000.00 a MONTH to live on.

 

Wait until he gets his legal bills. The dude is going to have to file bankruptcy!

 

Well, he should have let that kid walk home. Sad part is, this could happen to any of us here on TGO! Sad, very sad indeed!

 

The NW at the gayed community already paid out millions to TM parents from a law suit they filed.

 

Dave S

Edited May 29, 2013 by DaveS

[gnmwilliams]

Cannot wait for the screaming mobs with the 12 yr TM's photo plastered all over signs.  'NO Justice for TM' BS lets loot a Wal-Mart.  Nothing says justice like stealing a 52" TV set and a case of beer..

No joke. I'm going to be on vacation down close to there in August. Hopefully they won't have come to a verdict by then.

[Guest nra37922]

Good thing is you can carry all the way there

[Sam1]

Looks like prosecutors were trying to withhold some evidence (the pics) http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/05/29/3422519/lawyer-zimmerman-prosecutor-withheld.html

[mikegideon]

Looks like prosecutors were trying to withhold some evidence (the pics) http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/05/29/3422519/lawyer-zimmerman-prosecutor-withheld.html

 

They need to lock some folks up

[RobertNashville]

...Well, he should have let that kid walk home.

I believe that's exactly what he did and that it was this little thug-want-a-be with a chip on his shoulnder that attacked Zimmerman unprovoked.

 

Yeah...the lesson here is stay in your home and hope for the best and and if you see a suspicious person walking through your neighborhood don't do anything about it.

[RichardR]

Looks like prosecutors were trying to withhold some evidence (the pics) http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/05/29/3422519/lawyer-zimmerman-prosecutor-withheld.html

Yikes!

Apparently a lot of Justice 4 Trayvon folks these days suffer from "the ends justifies the means" syndrome.

Zimmerman's being rail-roaded, I am absolutely convinced of that now.

[mikegideon]

Yikes!

Apparently a lot of Justice 4 Trayvon folks these days suffer from "the ends justifies the means" syndrome.

Zimmerman's being rail-roaded, I am absolutely convinced of that now.

 

Libtardism at its finest, complete with lots of anti-gun agenda.

[DaveS]

Zman's lawyers said today that "they need another $125,000.00 from Zman to adequately defend him." Sounds like someone is trying to line their pockets from Zman.

 

Dave S

[mikegideon]

Zman's lawyers said today that "they need another $125,000.00 from Zman to adequately defend him." Sounds like someone is trying to line their pockets from Zman.

 

Dave S

 

Nope. Just a lot of lawyers and staff burning a lot of time. Trials are expensive. For what little work is done in the courtroom, there is a ton of background work.

 

BTW... it doesn't get cheaper when the prosecution is hiding evidence either. 

Edited May 30, 2013 by mikegideon

[Chucktshoes]

Zman's lawyers said today that "they need another $125,000.00 from Zman to adequately defend him." Sounds like someone is trying to line their pockets from Zman.

Dave S

IANAL, but I do know these types of trials are super expensive to try. Lots of research ($) staff ($$) and expert witnesses ($$$). The defense of someone requires many, many hours of work by people who rightfully expect compensation for their work and expertise. Edited May 30, 2013 by Chucktshoes

[Guest RedLights&Sirens]

Nope. Just a lot of lawyers and staff burning a lot of time. Trials are expensive. For what little work is done in the courtroom, there is a ton of background work.

BTW... it doesn't get cheaper when the prosecution is hiding evidence either.

IANAL, but I do know these types of trials are super expensive to try. Lots of research ($) staff ($$) and expert witnesses ($$$). The defense of someone requires many, many hours of work by people who rightfully expect compensation for their work and expertise.

I dont for one moment doubt trials like this are expensive BUT I cant help to wonder how the final costs of this trial will compare to something simillar that wasnt an MSM hype.

[RobertNashville]

Zman's lawyers said today that "they need another $125,000.00 from Zman to adequately defend him." Sounds like someone is trying to line their pockets from Zman.

 

Dave S

I doubt that.  Ask a few attorneys who defend shooters in SD cases and I think you'll find that a quarter-million is probably just a starting point.

 

If anyone here ever is engaged in a SD shooting but winds up having to defend themselves in a full-fledged murder case (even if they are 100% innocent and the shooting justified) that person will be just as dependent as GZ is on donations to fund his defense because you'l almost certainly be looking at a 7 figure price tag.

[mikegideon]

I dont for one moment doubt trials like this are expensive BUT I cant help to wonder how the final costs of this trial will compare to something simillar that wasnt an MSM hype.

 

I think it's gonna be a huge difference. Already had one judge kicked off the case. Now, you have the prosecution suppressing evidence. Z's attorneys have to stay on top of all that crap. 

[Chucktshoes]

Nope. Just a lot of lawyers and staff burning a lot of time. Trials are expensive. For what little work is done in the courtroom, there is a ton of background work.


BTW... it doesn't get cheaper when the prosecution is hiding evidence either.

IANAL, but I do know these types of trials are super expensive to try. Lots of research ($) staff ($$) and expert witnesses ($$$). The defense of someone requires many, many hours of work by people who rightfully expect compensation for their work and expertise.

I dont for one moment doubt trials like this are expensive BUT I cant help to wonder how the final costs of this trial will compare to something simillar that wasnt an MSM hype.

I would say far too similar for me to continue on without at least looking into taking on some sort of insurance against trial expenses for my wife and I since we both carry.

[Guest nra37922]

As I posted earlier ITS NOT ABOUT THE TRUTH, it is getting the verdict that will mollify a certain voting bloc and if that means hiding/deleting exculpatory evidence then oh well.....

[TMF]

Huh? Is this another vast conspiracy that everyone is in on to include the jury and all the prosecuting attorneys? To what end? For whom?

[Sam1]

Nope. Just a lot of lawyers and staff burning a lot of time. Trials are expensive. For what little work is done in the courtroom, there is a ton of background work.

 

BTW... it doesn't get cheaper when the prosecution is hiding evidence either. 

 

 

Yeah, Chip said in his seminar that a murder trial defense could run $100,000 easily, with GZ getting tangled up in the publicity, being 10 times that amount would seem reasonable.

[mikegideon]

Huh? Is this another vast conspiracy that everyone is in on to include the jury and all the prosecuting attorneys? To what end? For whom?

 

Not the jury. The prosecutor's office withheld evidence. One guy on administrative leave. I'm sure they'll scapegoat it out, like good Obamanites do.

[TripleDigitRide]

This may have been covered in this thread, but I haven't been keeping up.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/05/m-new_evidence_shows_trayvons_life_unraveling.html