Troubling news for the Trayvon Martin camp

[RobertNashville]

...If I noticed a person breaking into my neighbors house I would probably arm myself and walk outside to where I had a clear view of the home, any vehicle, any accomplices, and any further actions while I awaited the police. Seeing as I also have a flip camera I would probably pick that up to turn on and use as well. 

 

Would I be in the wrong? If I was approached and attacked by said home intruders in a public street or sidewalk would I be expected to have my head bashed in because I decided that being a witness was more important than sitting back and letting people do whatever they want left unchecked?

Well, "wrong" is a very subjective term at times.

 

It depends on whether or not Jessie Jackson or Al Sharpton will lead marches to get a new DA appointed to overturn the decision of the DA that they didn't like.

 

And obviously; you should have just stayed in your house...maybe even pulled your drapes closed because even walking outside may be considered threatening to the burglars and given them the legal right to "defend themselves" against your obviously aggressive actions. ;)

Edited May 26, 2013 by RobertNashville

[DaveTN]

I confused as to what the “Watch Captain” or “On Duty” has to do with anything? Does being a neighborhood watch member have some special privileges in Florida? Is being a “Watch Captain” something special?

If Zimmerman was an off duty cop the first question would be “Did he identify himself as a Police Officer?” The second question would be “Did he have authority to act?”

So… How did Zimmerman convey to Martin that he was someone special and Martin didn’t need to be afraid? And does a “Watch Captain” have authority? Is there such a thing as a “Watch captain” being on or off duty?

[RobertNashville]

I agree with that. The day they showed his video..I said "shut the hell up dude!"

 

All in all, I think this case will give us all something to think about. All the hell we could go through over (in our opinions) what we think is a good shoot.

 

Dave

Yeah...this case proves that we should all just sell our weapons or lock them up in our safes because protecting ourselves or our loved ones is just not worth it.

Edited May 26, 2013 by RobertNashville

[Daniel]

Why would he be afraid of a man walking down the street? By this I mean if TM was "standing his ground" what cause for fear did he have to do so?

Edited May 26, 2013 by Daniel

[mikegideon]

Which is better, 9mm or .45?

 

9mm is for pussies :)

[Guest TankerHC]

Which is better, 9mm or .45?

 

.45 ACP, but only in a 1911. Doesnt shoot as good in any other gun, which arent real guns anyway.

[mikegideon]

I confused as to what the “Watch Captain” or “On Duty” has to do with anything? Does being a neighborhood watch member have some special privileges in Florida? Is being a “Watch Captain” something special?

If Zimmerman was an off duty cop the first question would be “Did he identify himself as a Police Officer?” The second question would be “Did he have authority to act?”

So… How did Zimmerman convey to Martin that he was someone special and Martin didn’t need to be afraid? And does a “Watch Captain” have authority? Is there such a thing as a “Watch captain” being on or off duty?

 

We still don't know who made contact with who. Zimmerman didn't indicate in the tapes that he wanted to make contact at all. Every indication is that he wanted the police to make contact, if he didn't manage to slip away as usual.

[DaveS]

He isn't a police officer. He was not conducting an official investigation. He was just a guy who saw something that looked funny and decided it was worth taking another look. He doesnt conduct terry stops as was mentioned earlier. He doesnt have RAS or PC requirements to ask someone a question. He doesnt have any restrictions to observe someone walking down a public sidewalk or in this case a private walk to which he was a paying resident of.

Who was a paying resident of the community?

 

Dave S

[Daniel]

GZ.

[MattCary]

Dave, do you really think this audio evidence, hired by a newspaper to do, will see the light of day?

 

On a related note, I remember some discrediting of this or someone else alleging to have done audio analysis

on this case.

 

The results are fairly subjective.

 

Audio Rorschach test is what I see. (Especially the "Biblical" "This will happen" one.)

[DaveS]

George Zimmerman needs our money! He excepts PAYPAL now. Jump right on it and send him some. He's asking for $30,000.00 a month to live on. OH, and that's not for his attorney fees either.

 

http://www.therealgeorgezimmerman.com/

 

Sheezzz, this guy never gives up!

 

Oh poor poor Zman....

 

Dave S

[Guest 6.8 AR]

So, that makes him guilty?

[DaveS]

GZ.

OK, I'm tracking with ya.

 

Dave

[Links2k]

I am really looking forward to the evidence presented at trial from both sides.

It will be a good trial to follow.

[DaveS]

Nothing. The state has to prove he did it, and he has to convince the jury he didn't. He's going to have a hard time because of his credibility (or lack thereof). Ain't that the way it works?

 

I donated (for personal reasons) to the Justice for Trayvon drive. Ya'll go on in there give Zman yo cash! I gave already at the office and I ain't giving him none! Ya'll can do that! Help the kid out man....

 

I'm heading down there next month. I'll see ol' George myself. I hope they don't mess me up by changing the trial date!

 

Dave S

[MattCary]

Did Zman say this?

 

Dave

 

GZ said on his Hannidy interview that he was on the grass with his head on the concrete with TM on him hitting his head on the sidewalk. GZ "slithered/scooted" down (while under TM) to get his head off the sidewalk and onto the grass so his head would be hitting grass, not concrete. During the course of this maneuver his jacket rode up exposing his waistband and the pistol was thus revealed. 

 

If I recall correctly, this is where GZ claims that TM said "you're going to die tonight" (paraphrasing as closely as I recall) and the fight for the pistol began. 

 

GZ said at this point, with the pistol introduced into the equation, he knew he was in great danger and fired.

 

 

Granted; this is all GZs side. But it makes sense and is at least partially corroborated by the injuries to his head and the grass stains (or actual grass) found on his jacket.

[DaveS]

Why would he be afraid of a man walking down the street? By this I mean if TM was "standing his ground" what cause for fear did he have to do so?

Maybe someone was chasing him or something, I have no Idea.....

 

Dave

[MattCary]

 

Here is a map of everything that is known for sure: Zimmerman's truck, the house where Martin was staying, and where the body was found. http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/evidence-that-trayvon-martin-doubled-back

 

 

These maps are pretty significant. (I hadn't seen them until today.)

 

GZ is assumed to have been at the top of the map, until the altercation.

 

TM is (assumption here, but reasonable) Moving from the Clubhouse/mailbox area to the bottom of the map and home.

 

IMO there really is no way that the two meet back up again where they did unless TM deviates from a direct path home and comes back OR hides out and waits.

[MattCary]

Nothing. The state has to prove he did it, and he has to convince the jury he didn't. He's going to have a hard time because of his credibility (or lack thereof). Ain't that the way it works?

 

I donated (for personal reasons) to the Justice for Trayvon drive. Ya'll go on in there give Zman yo cash! I gave already at the office and I ain't giving him none! Ya'll can do that! Help the kid out man....

 

I'm heading down there next month. I'll see ol' George myself. I hope they don't mess me up by changing the trial date!

 

Dave S

 

He won't be hard to spot. Looks like he's back up to fightin' weight.

[DaveS]

GZ said on his Hannidy interview that he was on the grass with his head on the concrete with TM on him hitting his head on the sidewalk. GZ "slithered/scooted" down (while under TM) to get his head off the sidewalk and onto the grass so his head would be hitting grass, not concrete. During the course of this maneuver his jacket rode up exposing his waistband and the pistol was thus revealed. 

 

If I recall correctly, this is where GZ claims that TM said "you're going to die tonight" (paraphrasing as closely as I recall) and the fight for the pistol began. 

 

GZ said at this point, with the pistol introduced into the equation, he knew he was in great danger and fired.

 

 

Granted; this is all GZs side. But it makes sense and is at least partially corroborated by the injuries to his head and the grass stains (or actual grass) found on his jacket.

Good points indeed...but blood evidence doesn't backup Zman's claim.

 

Dave S

[MattCary]

Maybe someone was chasing him or something, I have no Idea.....

 

Dave

 

Also something I noted today from the abbreviated 911 transcripts: Apparently GZ calls when he first drives into the neighborhood, notices TM near the clubhouse/mailbox area "standing around staring at houses" calls 911, watches TM and at some point TM looks at and walks toward GZ's vehicle.  Then runs away.

 

Maybe it's too many Cop Dramas on TV for me, but doesn't LE always say "Then why did you run if you hadn't done anything?"

[MattCary]

Good points indeed...but blood evidence doesn't backup Zman's claim.

 

Dave S

 

Agree, Dave. I haven't seen any of the blood evidence (other than the blood on the back of GZs head photo.)  Do you have a link to blood evidence? Was there not any blood found on the sidewalk?

 

If not, how does one get those gashes in the head? Being punched from behind? Hit with something? Doesn't that sort of direction favor GZ more than TM? (Being punched/struck in the back of the head vs. bashed on sidewalk.)

[DaveS]

He won't be hard to spot. Looks like he's back up to fightin' weight.

And I can't buy the fact that he couldn't throw a 140 pound kid off him, unless he couldn't fight!

 

Ya'll go read all the complaints filed against Zman over the months by members of "his" community. Being the only member of his "watch group" he took his position just a little too serious!

[Guest Charis]

I don't post much, as I'm not a gun owner and in fact have a rather huge and irrational fear of guns, but this one I just can't pass up.

 

1. The Neighborhood Watch argument - Forgive me for being blunt, but your argument that GZ was doing something wrong because he had his gun is just silly. The NW does not ISSUE weapons nor authority nor police powers, it does not say anywhere that I can find in any of their literature that a legal gun owner with the right to carry his/her weapon at any other time CAN NOT or even SHOULD NOT carry their weapon while on their watch duties. If you did find such a thing in their paperwork, I'd like a link to it please, because otherwise your argument is facetious on it's face, with no meaning other than to distract from the facts that do not agree with your conclusion.

 

Also, I can find no statements anywhere that the community watch group was actually a member of the organization Neighborhood Watch. If they were NOT affiliated with this actual organization, then these little pamphlets are completely useless on all counts. Does anyone have anything saying they were attached to the neighborhood watch that they can link me to?

 

2. The Authority argument - GZ was at that time a fee paying member of a gated community that had started or had in place a neighborhood watch group that was concerned with youths in hoodies breaking into houses. GZ was elected by that community group to be the captain and was given a duty shift. His authority was given to him by his neighbors in the community in which he and they paid to live. They ASKED him to do exactly what he was trying - watch the neighborhood and try to stop the break ins. The 911 call clearly states WHY GZ was watching this kid, and why he pursued him in an effort to keep him in sight - because he didn't recognize him and he was standing around looking at houses. That is suspicious behavior, and given the break ins and the community watch group request, GZs actions are not only within his "authority" they were perfectly reasonable for any man woman or child that lived in the neighborhood that was trying to stop the crimes that were happening there.

 

3. The Chased Down argument - Again, this argument is pure silliness. This "chase" as you want to call it happened during a 4 minute call with the police, at least 1 minute and 30 seconds of which was GZ standing in one place AFTER having lost sight of TM for approximately 30 seconds already. TM had a full 2 minutes in which GZ had no idea where he was or where he was headed. During that time he could have done either of the two things that would have completely negated all that happened afterwards. Gone home or called the cops. He did neither. Given the facts we currently have, what he DID do was go the opposite direction from the house he was supposedly running for his life to get to in order to cross paths with GZ, again, AFTER GZ had lost him and had no way of knowing where he was for 2 full minutes.

 

I'd also like to point out a fact that I am utterly disgusted about, as an american, as a human, and as a white woman -

 

Both of these men are "minorities", no matter how hard you try, being a light skinned hispanic does not turn GZ into a "white" anything, and yet we are STILL harping about race as if it were some sort of deciding factor and that somehow white people brought this on.

 

Racists started this argument. Yes, "minorities" can be racists, too.

 

Those same racists disappeared when they found out it wasn't a white man.

 

And yet we are still carrying their water... why is that? Are we so drowned in our white guilt that if someone SUGGESTS racism we must feel bad and carry the torch even after they are proven wrong and have fled with their tail between their legs?

 

I guess I'm just an evil white honky, because I don't feel bad, I don't believe this had anything to do with race, and I refuse to carry that torch even one step, much less any further into this discussion.

[Sam1]

Good points indeed...but blood evidence doesn't backup Zman's claim.

 

Dave S

 

 

We don't know what the evidence is.  Here's the way I see it, the incident happened in February and they didn't arrest GZ until weeks later and only after there was a big media blow-up.

 

How many people have you seen that was involved in a shooting, taken in immediately, the evidence (in your words) didn't backup Z's claim and was released?  I'm not an LEO or anything, but would tend to think that if you had someone involved in a fatal shooting and they were in custody, they would not be released if the evidence didn't match up with the story.

 

Unfortunately I believe GZ has become a fall guy for the media sensationalists.