Troubling news for the Trayvon Martin camp

[DaveS]

 
That’s a point I made in the threads when this happened. “He could have ran away”. But that’s the whole issue of the stand your ground laws we all want to protect. He was committing no crime, he had every right to be there, and he had absolutely no requirement to run from a stranger with no legal authority to stop him. He did run and Zimmerman chased him. At some point he decided to stop running, stand his ground, and engage his attacker. Bad news for him; his attacker had a gun, he didn’t.

At one time it was mentioned that TM had no right being where he was. He did as his father was visiting his girlfriend. I looked at pictures of the neighborhood where this all come down. Where is the fence and gate to keep people out of this gated community? Can just anyone walk through there?

 

D

[RobertNashville]

 
That’s a point I made in the threads when this happened. “He could have ran away”. But that’s the whole issue of the stand your ground laws we all want to protect. He was committing no crime, he had every right to be there, and he had absolutely no requirement to run from a stranger with no legal authority to stop him. He did run and Zimmerman chased him. At some point he decided to stop running, stand his ground, and engage his attacker. Bad news for him; his attacker had a gun, he didn’t.

Most of that described chain of events is assumption and in conflict with the un-doctored 911 tapes and witness statements.

[DaveTN]

 

You had me pretty much up to the unfounded allegation/assumption that Martin did nothing wrong.

 It isn’t an unfounded allegation; it’s an undisputed fact. What did Martin do that gave Zimmerman the cause or authority to chase him when he was trying to get away from a guy following him and ultimately chasing him? Zimmerman was committing a crime when it turned into a pursuit.

Disengaged? What authority or right did he have to “engage” in the first place?

I guess a lot of this depends on who people identify with. Some seem to think convicting Zimmerman will somehow limit their ability to protect themselves. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Do any of you plan on jumping out of your truck and chasing a kid that you think is suspicious? I don’t.

I identify with Martin. If I am walking down the street and some citizen thinks I look suspicious and he wants to check me out and starts approaching me in a threatening manner; I will display a weapon, that is my right to defend myself as an innocent citizen. If he has a gun a decides to draw; one of us is probably going to die. If I was the survivor and he was a dead neighborhood watch person I hate to think you would all be saying I had no right to protect myself in an unprovoked attack.

[jgradyc]

I understand where you are coming from. Zman was 250 pounds. Trayvon was a 6'3 140 pound beanpole. You telling me a 140 pounder can over power a 250 pounder?

The media did a poor job of reporting on this, so this misleading data keeps getting repeated. It's way off.

 

According to Seminole County booking information, Zimmerman was 5' 7", 185 lbs on the day of his arrest. At 5' 7" and 185, that's fat... about 30+ pounds overweight... borderline obese... obese would be 190 lbs.

 

Martin, according to the official coroner's report, was 71" (5" 11") and 158 lbs. That's after exsanguination, so it's likely he was around 160 at the time of the shooting.

 

The official reports are online.

[DaveS]

This is a pretty good read.

 

There is some differences between Zman's 911 call and his written statements.

 

http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/07/12/new-george-zimmerman-evidence-8-things-you-need-to-know/

 

Dave

[Daniel]

I am posting this after only getting to page 2. Ill read the rest and maybe amend.

 

 

Maybe Zimmerman WAS being a busy-body and shouldn't have gotten involved. Maybe he shouldn't have followed Martin to see where he went. Maybe he shouldn't have confronted him and/or asked him what he was up to.

BUT, none of that is illegal, none of that warrants being physically assaulted, and none of that justifies a murder charge. In far too many cases, by the time the cops show up to a non-emergency call like this started out as the bad guy is long gone.

All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing. Well Zimmerman may not be an angel, but I think he was doing the right thing by keeping a suspicious looking person in sight so he could report back to the cops.

At the risk of being labeled as something I am not I will relate a story.

 

When I was at South-Doyle Middle School in Knoxville we had a deck built in our backyard. A family friend, who was a brick mason primarily but knew enough carpentry to handle the job, did the work. He hired a friend of his to help him out.

 

A week after work was complete my grandfather, who lived up the street, noticed a car driving down in the middle of the day with three black guys in it. We lived on a dead end street and no one was anything but white. He saw them pull up to our yard and stop. At this point he walks inside, picks up a shotgun, and starts walking down the street. About one house down the car gives two quick honks and one of the occupants hurry's from our back yard and jumps in the car and they drive to the end of the road turn around haul ass out of there. My grandfather noted the make model and color and told us that afternoon. When we checked the back a tire iron was dropped beside the deck and we had pry marks on the door and frame. We told our friend the info and he said that it was his friend's brother's car by the description and that he was recently released from jail.

 

I relate this because at first glance these men were not doing anything illegal but yet based on prior history in our neighborhood they warranted a closer look. I do not fault George Zimmerman for watching and following Trayvon Martin. He was well within his legal rights and I think a moral obligation to do so. If you sit back and let your friends and neighbors be victims of crime I feel you are a poor excuse for a person. 

 

Of course there is a line you should not cross. The question in this case to me is who crossed it? Did GZ attempt to break contact and was pursued or did he instigate the confrontation by more than just observing TM's actions and location?

Edited May 26, 2013 by Daniel

[DaveTN]

 

The media did a poor job of reporting on this, so this misleading data keeps getting repeated. It's way off.
 
According to Seminole County booking information, Zimmerman was 5' 7", 185 lbs on the day of his arrest. At 5' 7" and 185, that's fat... about 30+ pounds overweight... borderline obese... obese would be 190 lbs.
 
Martin, according to the official coroner's report, was 71" (5" 11") and 158 lbs. That's after exsanguination, so it's likely he was around 160 at the time of the shooting.
 
The official reports are online.

Are we to believe that Zimmerman was so physically inferior to Martin that he couldn’t push Martin off him or defended himself against him; but that Zimmerman was able to physically stop Martin from gaining control of his weapon that he was supposedly going for and shoot Martin?

[Links2k]

A *white* hispanic killed a black, that's all that seems to matter.

It appears to me me that you the only person reeatedly concentrating on race as if Martin deserved to die simply for being black. Many of these gentlemen have made reasoned arguments both pro and con for what they believe happened in this case. Your best augument approaches theres no way Martin wasn't up to something because he was black.

This isn't a racial issue. This case is about will a family man spend the rest of his life in jail for a justified shooting or was a young man gunned down because the "fit the decription".

[mikegideon]

It appears to me me that you the only person reeatedly concentrating on race as if Martin deserved to die simply for being black. Many of these gentlemen have made reasoned arguments both pro and con for what they believe happened in this case. Your best augument approaches theres no way Martin wasn't up to something because he was black.

This isn't a racial issue. This case is about will a family man spend the rest of his life in jail for a justified shooting or was a young man gunned down because the "fit the decription".

 

It's a huge racial issue. It just wasn't between Z&T (from what I know). All the misinformation in the press is 100% about race. If both guys had been the same race, and it doesn't matter which one, it may have received a couple lines in the local paper.

[DaveS]

Something I did not know was that Zman was not on watch duty that night. He was taking a shortcut through the neighborhood on his way to the grocery store when he spotted TM walking down the street and decided to stop and investigate. Interesting...

 

Dave

[Links2k]

You had me pretty much up to the unfounded allegation/assumption that Martin did nothing wrong.
 
If Zimmerman had disengaged and was leaving the area, as it seems to me the evidence at least suggests he was and if Martin, trying to be a badass tracked him down and attacked and put Zimmerman's life in danger the Martin did something VERY wrong, perhaps wrong enough that he would be facing a charge of attempted murder of Zimmerman.
 
To put it in the parlance of what we talk about every day here; even if Zimmerman was a "threat" to Martin at some point, if Zimmerman had/was disengaging then he was no longer an threat to Martin or anyone else and Martin then had ZERO justification for doing anything to him at that point.
 
Non of us have a right to murder someone; we have a right to defend ourselves, including the use of deadly force, to stop a threat...PERIOD.  Once the threat stops we have to stop.  It looks to me as if Martin didn't stop and crossed that line.

You make a good point Robert, but Zimmerman's primary responsibility as a member of a watch group is to observe and report. Zimmerman set this entire death spiral into play when he did anything except call the authorities and tell them which direction the suspicious person was headed, what he was wearing and he was doing.

[Links2k]

It isn’t an unfounded allegation; it’s an undisputed fact. What did Martin do that gave Zimmerman the cause or authority to chase him when he was trying to get away from a guy following him and ultimately chasing him? Zimmerman was committing a crime when it turned into a pursuit.Disengaged? What authority or right did he have to “engage” in the first place?I guess a lot of this depends on who people identify with. Some seem to think convicting Zimmerman will somehow limit their ability to protect themselves. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Do any of you plan on jumping out of your truck and chasing a kid that you think is suspicious? I don’t.I identify with Martin. If I am walking down the street and some citizen thinks I look suspicious and he wants to check me out and starts approaching me in a threatening manner; I will display a weapon, that is my right to defend myself as an innocent citizen. If he has a gun a decides to draw; one of us is probably going to die. If I was the survivor and he was a dead neighborhood watch person I hate to think you would all be saying I had no right to protect myself in an unprovoked attack.

Excellent observation.

[Links2k]

It's a huge racial issue. It just wasn't between Z&T (from what I know). All the misinformation in the press is 100% about race. If both guys had been the same race, and it doesn't matter which one, it may have received a couple lines in the local paper.

I'm not speaking about the media. I'm speaking of the discussion that friends are having on TGO. We should be able to voice our opinions without playing the race card. There are enough people doing that elsewhere.

[Daniel]

I agree 100% Look at the times he went on tv without his lawyers knowing it to throw his sales pitch. If I was his lawyer, I'd fired him as a client! I'm not saying at all that TM was an angel. This is not about that. This is about was Zman "standing his ground" in fighting/shooting TM. Was TM "standing his ground" when he put the smack down on Zman. That's all this is about to me. I said it months ago on here and I repeat it now. "Had Zman stayed in his truck, we would not be reading this. Most people say Zman was standing his ground. Did not TM have the same right if he felt threatened by Zman? We can all speculate about this and that, but we only have one side of the story to go on. Unfortunately, that side of the story is of questionable character and a liar.

 

The jury has a tough job ahead of them! Susan Anthony got off in Florida, I guess Zman stands a chance too!

 

DaveS

 

Women's suffrage played out in Florida?

Edited May 26, 2013 by Daniel

[TMF]

Women's suffrage played out in Florida?

...from the top ropes!

[Daniel]

Why do people keep saying that he had no "authority" to investigate?

[mikegideon]

You make a good point Robert, but Zimmerman's primary responsibility as a member of a watch group is to observe and report. Zimmerman set this entire death spiral into play when he did anything except call the authorities and tell them which direction the suspicious person was headed, what he was wearing and he was doing.

 

Maybe he tried that a number of times in the past, and got poor results. This whole thing didn't happen in a vacuum. It was a neighborhood that had been plagued by break-ins. If we take away all our biases and deal with what is really documented for a minute, we may get closer to the truth. Zimmerman's comment, "they always get away" is significant. If I was in his shoes, I wouldn't confront the suspicious person, but I may not let them out of my sight either. I have just always assumed that he was doing that, and will continue until I see proof of something else.

[mikegideon]

I'm not speaking about the media. I'm speaking of the discussion that friends are having on TGO. We should be able to voice our opinions without playing the race card. There are enough people doing that elsewhere.

 

I think most of us are. I don't own any pointy hoods :).

[mikegideon]

...from the top ropes!

 

Yep. I hated her dollar, BTW

[Chucktshoes]

I think most of us are. I don't own any pointy hoodies :).

[Guest TankerHC]

This could be a major problem for Zimmerman. RIght from the Neigborhood Watch manual. He said he was a Neighbohood Watch Captain.

 

Citizen Patrols
An effective tool for some Watch programs to use is a citizen patrol. It is up to the community in conjunction with law enforcement to decide whether a patrol is needed. Citizen patrols are volunteers who walk or drive an area on a regular basis to report incidents and problems to the police and provide a visible presence that deters criminal activity. They have no policing powers, carry no weapons, are nonconfrontational, and always coordinate activities with law enforcement. A citizen patrol can cover a neighborhood, an apartment lobby or complex, a business district, or a park; some use bicycles, in-line skates, or cars to cover larger areas. They contact the police dispatcher through two-way radios or cellular phones donated by a local business. Cameras or video equipment may be used to record suspicious activity. Many patrols are based in a Neighborhood Watch program or work closely with one.

 

So it would seem on the surface he violated all three of the rules for a Neighborhood Watch Patrol.

 

Here's the manual. And the manual comes from the National Sherrifs Association Beareau of Justice Assistance. Sounds like the rules are pretty clear. If they refer to the Manual he claims to be under, then I definitely see a conviction coming.

 

http://www.usaonwatch.org/assets/publications/0_NW_Manual_1210.pdf

 

http://www.sacsheriff.com/crime_prevention/documents/neighborhood_watch_04.cfm

[mikegideon]

This could be a major problem for Zimmerman. RIght from the Neigborhood Watch manual. He said he was a Neighbohood Watch Captain.

 

Citizen Patrols
An effective tool for some Watch programs to use is a citizen patrol. It is up to the community in conjunction with law enforcement to decide whether a patrol is needed. Citizen patrols are volunteers who walk or drive an area on a regular basis to report incidents and problems to the police and provide a visible presence that deters criminal activity. They have no policing powers, carry no weapons, are nonconfrontational, and always coordinate activities with law enforcement. A citizen patrol can cover a neighborhood, an apartment lobby or complex, a business district, or a park; some use bicycles, in-line skates, or cars to cover larger areas. They contact the police dispatcher through two-way radios or cellular phones donated by a local business. Cameras or video equipment may be used to record suspicious activity. Many patrols are based in a Neighborhood Watch program or work closely with one.

 

So it would seem on the surface he violated all three of the rules for a Neighborhood Watch Patrol.

 

Here's the manual. And the manual comes from the National Sherrifs Association Beareau of Justice Assistance. Sounds like the rules are pretty clear. If they refer to the Manual he claims to be under, then I definitely see a conviction coming.

 

http://www.usaonwatch.org/assets/publications/0_NW_Manual_1210.pdf

 

http://www.sacsheriff.com/crime_prevention/documents/neighborhood_watch_04.cfm

 

None of that adds up to murder. Even the folks, like me, that don't think he committed murder, won't accuse Zimmerman of being the sharpest knife in the drawer.

 

If ANY of us go investigating a bump in the night, we're not going to leave our pistols behind.

[Daniel]

Does that manual carry penalty of law? No? Then what does it matter. He isn't protected from anything based on his being a neighborhood watch volunteer.

[RichardR]

It appears to me me that you the only person reeatedly concentrating on race as if Martin deserved to die simply for being black. Many of these gentlemen have made reasoned arguments both pro and con for what they believe happened in this case. Your best augument approaches theres no way Martin wasn't up to something because he was black.

This isn't a racial issue. This case is about will a family man spend the rest of his life in jail for a justified shooting or was a young man gunned down because the "fit the decription".

I'm just not afraid to point out the obvious, & wasn't refering directly to any of our fellow forumites doing that though, just the media and race-hustlers like Al Sharpton & Jesse Jackson who apparently needed to manufacture another incident/cause to milk.

If Trayvon had been white or hispanic or asian or whatever, &/or if Zimmerman would had also been black, everyone would have said "well, if you brutally assault & repeatedly bash another person's head with or against something really hard, you should be shot".

This discussion would had been 2 pages with everyone in agreement.

For me this is really simple (and should have been for everyone).

1.) Did Trayvon brutally assault & repeatedly bash Zimmermans head into the sidewalk? Yes/no.

2.) Did Zimmerman have a "reasonable belief" that he was in immediate danger of sustaining SBI &/or possibly being killed by Trayvon's actions when he discharged his weapon Yes/no

See how easy & uncomplicated that is?

The ethnicity of the participants, their age, their height, their weight, their backgrounds, their gender, their religious or political beliefs, none of that other irrelevant garbage is in those two above equasions.

I don't care if it was Mother Teresa &/or the Pope on top of me violently bashing my head into the sidewalk, I'm going to do whatever I have to to keep my brain-bucket from being busted open.

[DaveS]

Voice analyst of the 911 calls Just released information.

 

SANFORD -- 

The findings of state audio experts who examined the 911 calls made the night Trayvon Martin was shot and killed were released Tuesday. 

In call three, made by a woman who reported seeing the confrontation outside her home, screams can be heard and the audio experts came to different conclusions on who is heard screaming in the background.

Forensic Communication Associates in Gainesville examined the 911 call and broke it down scream by scream. 

Senior Consultants Harry Hollien and James Harnsberger were given CD’s containing voice recordings of both George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin to use for comparison.

Hollien and Harnsberger concluded that “only a little over eight seconds of speech was found available for assessment.”

They identified 16 samples of screams in that time frame and concluded that screams one and eight were made by Trayvon Martin and screams 14 and 16 were made by George Zimmerman.

Another analysis of the call was done by Forensic Acoustics Consultant Alan Reich.  He said his findings show that the cries came from Trayvon Martin.

He claims to hear Zimmerman make a seemingly "religious proclamation" saying, "This shall be."

The analyst describes the tone as that of an evangelical preacher or a carnival barker.

The analyst then reports hearing a higher pitched voice believed to be Trayvon Martin saying, "I'm begging you," which happens simultaneously with speech by the 911 operator and George Zimmerman.

In May 2012, Reich was retained by The Washington Post to do the same analysis and came to the same conclusion at that time.

Zimmerman’s lead defense attorney Mark O’Mara said the only thing the audio analysis shows is that the recording is not long enough, or good enough quality, to prove anything. “There are two of them, and they seem to be internally inconsistent, because they seem to be saying different things. One witness says he thinks he hears certain things, and another witness says he doesn’t hear that. And none of them can come up with something that is precise … or that is something they can testify with.”

O’Mara said since the analysis came out just a month away from the beginning of the trial, he may ask for a delay in the trial so his defense team can have enough time to look at the science that was used to analyze the call.  He also said he plans on challenging those methods used at an evidentiary hearing he has asked for later this month

 

 

• George Zimmerman's attorney asks for delay of trial
• George Zimmerman graduation pics among newly released photos
• Shellie Zimmerman's witness list released
• Audio experts differ in analysis of Trayvon Martin shooting call
• George Zimmerman defense wants anonymous jury
• George Zimmerman lawyers want to take jury to shooting scene

Dave

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2013 by DaveS