Troubling news for the Trayvon Martin camp

[Links2k]

Team Edward!

Team Jacob! Wolves are cool.

[BigK]

If I’m in a position of having my head pounded in the pavement its either because I’m a willing participant in a fight where I let my azz overload my mouth, in which case I can’t use a gun to end it and would have to rely on other means. Or, it is an unprovoked attacked in which I could shoot my assailant dead with no remorse or fear of prosecution.

...

Yes, you could die in a fight; although it is highly unlikely. If you are so worried about that don’t do stupid stuff that puts you in that position. That is your responsibility. 

I don't believe Zimmerman was a willing participant in a fight.

Whether he caught up to the younger, faster kid (highly unlikely) and confronted him or was on the way back to his vehicle and was jumped, I doubt he was looking for a fist fight. But, to play it out your way, let's say he did catch up to a scared, adrenaline-pumped Martin, who was in fear of his life, and confronted him. I'll do you one better, let's say in a fit of bravado, Z tried to subdue him physically and a fight ensued.

If that's the way it happened, sure he put himself in that position and shares responsibility for the course of events that follow. However, the moment it escalated to attempted murder and his head was being pounded against the sidewalk, NOTHING he did prior forces him to accept death or brain damage over defending his life.

[Links2k]

For second degree murder they must have some sort of evidence that we aren't aware of, otherwise I'd not cast a vote to convict (based on what we know). Manslaughter though, I believe the evidence will point to that and his attorneys will have to make a pretty good argument to get him out of it.

My call is that Zimmerman gets off with time served.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I say it depends on the jury, if it gets that far.

[DaveTN]

I don't believe Zimmerman was a willing participant in a fight.

Whether he caught up to the younger, faster kid (highly unlikely) and confronted him or was on the way back to his vehicle and was jumped, I doubt he was looking for a fist fight. But, to play it out your way, let's say he did catch up to a scared, adrenaline-pumped Martin, who was in fear of his life, and confronted him. I'll do you one better, let's say in a fit of bravado, Z tried to subdue him physically and a fight ensued.

If that's the way it happened, sure he put himself in that position and shares responsibility for the course of events that follow. However, the moment it escalated to attempted murder and his head was being pounded against the sidewalk, NOTHING he did prior forces him to accept death or brain damage over defending his life.

IMO that’s the only hope Zimmerman has. If jurors decide that even though he sat the events in motion, and he should have been able to see the recklessness of actions; he was justified in killing Martin while Martin was defending himself. It’s a stretch, but it could happen.

[DaveS]

My call is that Zimmerman gets off with time served.

I'll agree to that too. He's probably going to get his hind end sued off in the process, and Sanford FL will burn due to riots.

 

Using TM's phone and facebook pictures to paint the real Trayvon is insane. If that's the case, how many of us have pictures on our phones, websites and facebook pages of us with guns, game animals and fish we harvested. Does that make us animal haters? Guilty of animal abuse? I have a picture of a pot plant, does that mean I grow or smoke the stuff? Of course none of it does. However, if my a** was in a sling as Zman's is...I'm going to grab everything I can too. I don't know how this trial is going to go. I'm just glad I'm not on a jury.

 

Dave

[DaveTN]

My call is that Zimmerman gets off with time served.

“Time served” would require a conviction. I doubt the judge would let him off that easy. If he does prison time he will have to do it in solitary; that may cause a reduced amount of time. But who knows.

[TMF]

I don’t know Florida law. A member that said he was an expert of Florida law said they don’t have manslaughter. I don’t know what name or legal description they put on it but I don’t think a reckless act that led to the death of another isn’t covered somewhere.

Yeah, I'm no expert either but the definition of 2nd degree murder does not fit the evidence we know of currently. Even if Zimmerman did indeed initiate the confrontation with the knowledge and intention to use deadly force to end the confrontation it still doesn't rise to the level of 2nd degree murder. I figure there will be some sort of witness testimony that we are yet unaware of, otherwise he will be found not guilty of 2nd degree murder.

For those who think that initiating confrontation then shooting a person when in fear for your life is legal, you should REALLY familiarize yourselves with cases where that happened and the individual was RIGHTLY convicted of murder. Most recently I can recall the case where a guy picked a fight with three dudes, then shot them when they started kicking his ass. Undoubtedly I will be in fear for my life if I'm getting curb stomped by three dudes, but if I started the fight none of that matters. I don't see what it is so damn hard for folks to swallow that. If it was okay I (in theory) can go around picking fights with 7ft 300 lb dudes, then shoot them as soon as they take a swing. Whether or not who swung first doesn't matter, it boils down to intent. Edited May 25, 2013 by TMF

[Links2k]

I'll agree to that too. He's probably going to get his hind end sued off in the process, and Sanford FL will burn due to riots.
 
Using TM's phone and facebook pictures to paint the real Trayvon is insane. If that's the case, how many of us have pictures on our phones, websites and facebook pages of us with guns, game animals and fish we harvested. Does that make us animal haters? Guilty of animal abuse? I have a picture of a pot plant, does that mean I grow or smoke the stuff? Of course none of it does. However, if my a** was in a sling as Zman's is...I'm going to grab everything I can too. I don't know how this trial is going to go. I'm just glad I'm not on a jury.
 
Dave

I hope that we don't use that logic, because if we do my actions between the age of 14 and the time that I joined the Army would have made me public enemy #1.

[RobertNashville]

You are smarter than that Robert. You are dumbing down your logic for the approval of the lynch mob. I approve of neighborhood watches. I don't approve of watchmen doing investigations or injecting themselves into the action. Whatever that young man was doing, Zimmermans only responsibility was to observe and report.

Many here would likely disagree about how smart I am. :)

 

Moving on, the problem with what people think ZImmerman did as a "watch captain" is that no one really know what Zimmerman did.  For all we really know ZImmerman could have been running Martin down with his gun drawn and shouting racial insults causing little Travon to turn and fight....OR...Zimmerman could simply have kept his distance but still keep an eye on Martin and then when the 911 operator said "you don't have to to that" he turned around, walked calmly back to his vehicle (in other words, totally disengaged from the situation) when Martin; trying to be the gansta he wanted to be, pursue ZImmerman, jumped him and started beating him resulting in Zimmerman justifiably defending his life.

 

Of course; the facts...the truth likely lie somewhere in between.

Edited May 25, 2013 by RobertNashville

[RobertNashville]

“Time served” would require a conviction. I doubt the judge would let him off that easy. If he does prison time he will have to do it in solitary; that may cause a reduced amount of time. But who knows.

Wouldn't that depend on whether there are lessor included charges and/or if FL law allows a jury to convict on a lessor charge at their discretion?

 

I don't know if that applies to this case or not...just conjecture on my part.

[jgradyc]

...but if I started the fight none of that matters. I don't see what it is so damn hard for folks to swallow that.

I think most of us would agree with this, but you're assuming Zimmerman started this altercation. Where is the proof of this?  Remember, it has to be proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Where is the proof that an out of shape guy who stopped running when the dispatcher told him to? (Listen to the 911 call. You can hear his breath returning after stopping running.) Prosecution will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman somehow caught Martin. That simply doesn't fit the police reports of where the altercation took place.

 

Maybe there is something that hasn't been released yet, but there has been a lot of information on this case released in local media that hasn't gotten national attention. There's just no case for 2nd degree murder, as defined by Florida law.

 

I predict either a hung jury or not guilty verdict... probably not guilty.

[DaveTN]

I don’t know. I can’t think of any lesser charge that he could be convicted of that would convict him of taking the life of an innocent person and not result in at least a few years in prison.

I will say this, if he is convicted the Judge will have a heavy burden in sentencing. This is a high profile case with a lot of emotion in the community. Like that or not; that would be a factor.

 

 

[mikegideon]

I think most of us would agree with this, but you're assuming Zimmerman started this altercation. Where is the proof of this?  Remember, it has to be proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Where is the proof that an out of shape guy who stopped running when the dispatcher told him to? (Listen to the 911 call. You can hear his breath returning after stopping running.) Prosecution will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman somehow caught Martin. That simply doesn't fit the police reports of where the altercation took place.

 

This is the deal. Until Trayvon's marketing campaign came into full swing, you had Zimmerman with a bloody head, and Trayvon with a hole in his chest. If they use speculation instead of hard evidence to convict, then we all lose.

 

We have fight games, and a winner is declared based on how many blows hit home. Trayvon was winning the fight. If there's no evidence on how it got physical, they gotta let Z walk.

 

Since this whole thing has been a media circus, I'm fine with them releasing the information. It's a lot closer to fact than the angelic image that was pushed by every media outlet in the US.

Edited May 25, 2013 by mikegideon

[DaveTN]

 

I think most of us would agree with this, but you're assuming Zimmerman started this altercation. Where is the proof of this?  Remember, it has to be proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Where is the proof that an out of shape guy who stopped running when the dispatcher told him to? (Listen to the 911 call. You can hear his breath returning after stopping running.) Prosecution will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman somehow caught Martin. That simply doesn't fit the police reports of where the altercation took place.
 
Maybe there is something that hasn't been released yet, but there has been a lot of information on this case released in local media that hasn't gotten national attention. There's just no case for 2nd degree murder, as defined by Florida law.
 
I predict either a hung jury or not guilty verdict... probably not guilty.

Causing an innocent person to flea in fear is assault; doing that in most states while armed with a deadly weapon is aggravated assault. The prosecution doesn’t need to prove Zimmerman caught Martin and attacked him. They need to make the jury believe Martin was in fear and defending himself against a MWAG chasing him.
 
You said yourself he was chasing Martin…. Why? We will see what the jury thinks.

A plea bargain may still be in the cards.

[RichardR]

"Innocent"? As in Trayvon was not violently assaulting Zimmerman when Zimmerman discharged his weapon?

Or "innocent" as in you would rather Zimmerman had died, instead of Trayvon that night?

I'm only asking because your interpretation of the word "innocent" must be vastly different from mine.

[TMF]

[
I think most of us would agree with this, but you're assuming Zimmerman started this altercation. Where is the proof of this?

You're right, I'm assuming. Based on my knowledge, experience and what has been released regarding this case, my educated assumption is that Zimmerman initiated and/or escalated this confrontation whilst carrying and knowing he would end this with his firearm if it turned physical. I'm not a prosecutor, defense attorney, juror, judge, DA or law enforcement officer, so the onus is not on me to provide proof or evidence. It's called an opinion. Your life experiences may cause you to come to a different conclusion, and I'm okay with that.

The thing that drives me nuts is folks who willfully refuse to acknowledge that the possibility exists that the victim here is the deceased; it shows prejudice. I'm more than willing to accept the possibility that Trevon went out with the intention of being some bad boy gangbanger and assaulting poor white Hispanics with Skittles. I just don't believe that is the case. In fact, before all this blew up and I was following this as a local story, I made the assumption Martin was up to no good simply based on the location and the incredibly biased story written by the Orlando Sentinel. My opinions changed as more info came out. If more info comes out in favor of Zimmerman I'm prepared to accept that too. I don't think this character assault has any bearing on what happened that night.

[TMF]

[
We have fight games, and a winner is declared based on how many blows hit home. Trayvon was winning the fight. If there's no evidence on how it got physical, they gotta let Z walk.

I very much agree with this.

[DaveTN]

 

"Innocent"? As in Trayvon was not violently assaulting Zimmerman when Zimmerman discharged his weapon?

Or "innocent" as in you would rather Zimmerman had died, instead of Trayvon that night?

I'm only asking because your interpretation of the word "innocent" must be vastly different from mine.

 Innocent is a pretty self-explanatory term. There is no indication (or even accusation as far as I know) that Martin was committing or suspected of committing any crime. He did not fit the profile of what Zimmerman thought someone walking in that neighborhood should be. That profiling resulted in him getting into a confrontation and being killed. Was be profiled because he was black, looked like a thug, or just because he wasn’t known to Zimmerman; I don’t know. If I was prosecuting this case I would be looking for those that Zimmerman had stopped or called the Police on and see if I could find out. I would want to know who he was talking about and the circumstances when he said “They always get away”. Maybe they have already done that.

Is Zimmerman innocent? Nope, an innocent kid is dead because of the reckless circumstances he put in play. He could be acquitted of the charges against him; but that doesn’t mean he is innocent.

I am well aware of the fact that we have a legal system and not a justice system. No matter what the verdict is (assuming there is a trial) a bunch of folks are going to complain justice was not served.

[DaveS]

Folks, I have been scratching my head on this since day one. And as more and more time goes by, and based on the information available to me via the internet....Zman is guilty of something. What? I don't know. We'll see I guess. I feel that that whole game was on Zmans end of the field!

 

Dave S

[mikegideon]

 
 Innocent is a pretty self-explanatory term. There is no indication (or even accusation as far as I know) that Martin was committing or suspected of committing any crime. He did not fit the profile of what Zimmerman thought someone walking in that neighborhood should be. That profiling resulted in him getting into a confrontation and being killed. Was be profiled because he was black, looked like a thug, or just because he wasn’t known to Zimmerman; I don’t know. If I was prosecuting this case I would be looking for those that Zimmerman had stopped or called the Police on and see if I could find out. I would want to know who he was talking about and the circumstances when he said “They always get away”. Maybe they have already done that.

Is Zimmerman innocent? Nope, an innocent kid is dead because of the reckless circumstances he put in play. He could be acquitted of the charges against him; but that doesn’t mean he is innocent.

I am well aware of the fact that we have a legal system and not a justice system. No matter what the verdict is (assuming there is a trial) a bunch of folks are going to complain justice was not served.

 

How did he not fit the profile??? Guns, drugs, burglary tools, gangsta mentality. I think he fit it pretty well. We don't know what happened that night, but we DO know that Trayvon was a thug in training.

Edited May 25, 2013 by mikegideon

[Links2k]

How did he not fit the profile??? Guns, drugs, burglary tools, gangsta mentality. I think he fit it pretty well. We don't know what happened that night, but we DO know that Trayvon was a thug in training.

I'll agree that Martins future didn't look very bright, but on that night he didn't have any of those items that you mentioned. He only possessed the Skittles and iced tea that everyone likes to joke about. Edited May 25, 2013 by LINKS2K

[DaveTN]

How did he not fit the profile??? Guns, drugs, burglary tools, gangsta mentality. I think he fit it pretty well. We don't know what happened that night, but we DO know that Trayvon was a thug in training.

 What part of that did Zimmerman know at the time he decided to pull a Terry Stop? What was his RAS based on? You can’t accost people on the street without cause. If he’s a gang bangin thug why didn’t he just stomp a mud hole in Zimmerman’s azz as soon as he approached and call it a day. Why did he run?

Did he not the get the memo Gansta’s don’t run.

Edit: What were the burglary tools? Edited May 25, 2013 by DaveTN

[Jonnin]

Since the debate continues I will ask what I asked in the first epic thread and got nothing but politician responses.

 

What would YOU DO as a licensed and permitted handgun carrier if someone was on top of you slamming the back of your head into the pavement?

 

The events leading up to your potential death or permanent disability are really irrelevent.  At the point Zimmerman fired the shot heard round the country he was in such a postition and the events leading up to that do not justify his "taking an ass-whoopping".

 

Well that is easy.  I would shoot the guy if possible.  Its mighty hard to draw in that situation, but I would sure be trying to defend my self with whatever means.

 

But you can bet on it: I would not BE in that position due to having followed and confronted / started the fight. 

[mikegideon]

 What part of that did Zimmerman know at the time he decided to pull a Terry Stop? What was his RAS based on? You can’t accost people on the street without cause. If he’s a gang bangin thug why didn’t he just stomp a mud hole in Zimmerman’s azz as soon as he approached and call it a day. Why did he run?

Did he not the get the memo Gansta’s don’t run.

Edit: What were the burglary tools?

 

What Terry Stop? You're speculating again. :)