Boy Scouts Allow Gays

[Oh Shoot]

....The Canadian Boy Scouts did allow practicing homosexuals and reportedly their membership has shrunk to a very small number.  Canadian parents, the ones who really run the local troops, stopped volunteering, stopped contributing money, and withdrew and/or stopped enrolling their sons.

 

Perhaps this will eventually play out here also simply by a vote of participation/non-participation in BSA -- though I don't think an alternative SOBSA (Straight Only Boy Scouts of America) org will likely exactly catch fire either. Probably wouldn't even survive a legal challenge either?

 

- OS

[RED333]

Scout Oath

On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.
 

Scout Law

A Scout is:
Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful,
Friendly, Courteous, Kind,
Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty,
Brave, Clean, Reverent

[daddyo]

The issue is much bigger than sexual preference. It's about a private organization giving in to pressure from a minority group and making a major change in its membership requirements, which could have a disastrous effect on the entire organization.

 

I've never understood why those who want a scouting program with a different moral code don't just go start their own organization.

Edited May 24, 2013 by daddyo

[DaveTN]

Scout Oath
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.
 
Scout Law
A Scout is:
Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful,
Friendly, Courteous, Kind,
Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty,
Brave, Clean, Reverent

Will this mean a change to the oath?

[BryanP]

The sexual abuse that has been discovered within the Catholic Church will now be more likely within the BSA.  

 

But of course.  After all, it all started when they legalized homosexuality for priests.  :whistle:

[Guest nra37922]

Whats next Co-Ed Scout Troops?  Would make for some interesting Merit Badges....

Edited May 24, 2013 by nra37922

[Dolomite_supafly]

too funny. 

 

I did scouts with my oldest grandson for two years.  I don't know that any of the scouts were gay, boy scouts or cubs, and I doubt any of the leaders were.  But there were several ( imho) weirdo's involved in it all.  I just chalked up up to people being what they are and not worrying much about it.  Live and let live, yanno.

 

I did it for my grandson to be involved, met some very nice people.  I never let my true feeling known about anything really.  But them trying to force me to be a churchgoer really ate at me.  I was asked multiple times what church I attended and whenever I actually admitted to not going to church I was told every time that it was okay as long as I had a personal relationship with God.  I just smiled and nodded.  I was there to help my grandson and help the other kids in his den and pack so I ignored all the church stuff.

 

One incident about did me in though.  The entire pack met inside of the church that sponsored his pack to learn about the popcorn sales process.   They actually stood at the altar and pushed popcorn sales.  I sat in a pew listening attentively.  Happened to be wearing a ball cap.  One of the the boy scout adult leader actually came up to me and told me " take that hat off and show some respect while you are in a church" I was dumbfounded.  It was all I could do to not ask the guy if he ever heard the story of Jesus and the money changers.   I was pissed but just nodded and removed my hat.  What a bunch of hypocrite's.  Use the church as a church and I assure you I would have not worn a hat, but to peddle popcorn it did not seem like much of a church at the moment.

 

Anyway...

 

Homosexuals are not pedophiles.  It is damn ignorant to say that they are.   Are gay boy scouts as likely to rape non gay scouts as a hetero scout is likely to rape a girl?  Hell NO!   Neither is a very likely scenario.  Sex has no place in scouting,  it is about teaching boys to become upstanding citizens.   I could care less if a scout or a leader is gay anymore than I care of they are heterosexual,  none of that matters.

 

My grandson was a productive scout, we participated in most events and he earned a wide assortment of badges and awards.  We did camp outs hikes, outings, den and pack meetings.  He lost interest after his second year and never asked to go back for a third so I let it go.  He does football.   

 

Oddly enough, I was a card carrying scout leader for those two years,  and when we did not come back after football season for a third year I was not contacted one time by anyone in his pack to ask where we were.   I am pretty much glad they didn't now. 

 

Funny, I spoke of something similar in chat last night. Our son was in scouts and like many it was at a local church. His scouts was not like I remembered. Yes they did some scout activities from time to time but the majority of the time was spent doing religious activities. I liken it to sunday school because they would seperate into different groups and go read religious materials or do religious activities. We were often asked to donate to the church. My son didn't stay with it because he expected the scouts I told him about in which we did stuff related to scouting and not a church group that sometimes did scout activities between religious activities. And as much as I wanted him to stick with scouts I also agreed with him when he wanted to leave. We have never forced our religious views upon our son. What a person believes in is a personal choice and it should be up to them to decide who or what they belive in. I felt bad that the scout troop he was involved with used the scouts as a means to further or force their individual religious beliefs onto others that may not share their beliefs.

 

I openly support an individual's right to do what they want providing it doesn't affect another individual's right to do what they want. A person sleeping with the same sex in their own bedroom has zero impact on me or anyone else so I don't care.

 

I have zero issue with allowing anyone into the scouts providing providing what they discuss is scout related and not sex related. The last I remember sexual orientation or even talking about sex was not part of the discussion by anyone in the scouts. Being gay should not be discussed any more than being straight.

 

Just as before there will be gays in scouts that will try to keep it hidden but now there will be some who do not need to worry about keeping it hidden and can concentrate on becoming a better person. I think being a good person goes way beyond who you sleep with at night and I believe that just because someone is gay doesn't make them a bad person, their actions outside of the bedroom determine whether they are a good person or not. Trying to say that all gay people are bad is just as bad as some saying all gun owners are murderous psychopaths.

 

And for those who keep talking about morals let me throw this out. Morals change over time. Yes, everyone has their own beliefs in what is moral but it is the society that will determine what is considered morally acceptible. 50 years ago it was not morally acceptible to have a sexual relationship prior to marriage but today it is considered morally acceptible. 100 years ago is was morally acceptable for a 20 something to marry a teen but today society says that is not morally acceptible. 200 years ago is was morally acceptible to keep slaves but it is not today because society says so. I would be willing to bet the majority of us here have changed their moral stance on a few things in our lives.

 

 

And finally, a word of caution to EVERYONE. It seems like every time there is a controversial thread people say things they should not and people get banned. Be mindful of this fact as well as the fact we have ZERO issues punting a member if they cross that line. It isn't just name calling but also flame posts, racial slurs, and other insulting remarks meant to cause conflict. I already have one member that is going to be given a little time to "reflect". I don't want to do it to any others but I will if need be.

 

[Guest Scwrod]

There is a lot to talk about here. All I am gonna say is... Tolerance and acceptance are two different things. There is no law or policy that will make me compromise my morals, principals or belief's. For the record, this will not end well. 

Edited May 24, 2013 by Scwrod

[Mike.357]

as for Christianity in scouting...

 

In Cameron's Bear book requirement 1A is Complete the Character Connection of Faith. One of the 1A requirements says "Practice, Practice your faith as taught in your home, church, synagogue, mosque,or religious fellowship.

 

I never had a problem with this requirement due to the fact it did not require us to practice Christian faith.  I teach living by the Golden Rule here at home.    God is not defined anywhere in the book.  God could be whoever I decide it is.  Cameron sometimes goes to church with one of his friend's families.  He can decide what he wants to believe.  Gays in scouting do not affect this at all.

 

But...

 

To earn Achievement 2, one must knuckle under to accepted religion.  Be it Christianity, Mormonism,  Judaism, Islam, Hindu,  etc...  Every religion possible is listed there.  Even one generic type listed as "some protestant faiths".  Seems to me it is about all encompassing.

Oddly enough there is nothing in this book about how to earn this achievement.  It specifically says to contact your den leader, religious leader or BSA local council service center for information about how to earn the award of your faith.  I had a problem with the lack of written specifics for this achievement.

 

Anyway near as I can tell scouting does not have any more to do with Christianity than it does with any other religion.  

[Daniel]

In the Bible

Leviticus 18:22

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

 

We have allowed our morels to fall to the way side, and we are to blame.

 

One day we will have to answer for this.

Deuteronomy 22:13-21 if your wife is not virgin the men of her city shall stone her to death

 

13"If any man takes a wife and(A) goes in to her and then hates her 14and accuses her of misconduct and brings a bad name upon her, saying, 'I took this woman, and when I came near her, I did not find in her evidence of virginity,' 15then the father of the young woman and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of her virginity to the elders of the city in the gate. 16And the father of the young woman shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man to marry, and he hates her; 17and behold, he has accused her of misconduct, saying, "I did not find in your daughter evidence of virginity." And yet this is the evidence of my daughter’s virginity.' And they shall spread the cloak before the elders of the city. 18Then the elders of that city shall take the man and whip[a] him, 19and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the father of the young woman, because he has brought a bad name upon a virgin[c] of Israel. And she shall be his wife.(B) He may not divorce her all his days. 20But if the thing is true, that evidence of virginity was not found in the young woman, 21then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and(C) the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has(D) done an outrageous thing in Israel by whoring in her father’s house.(E) So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

[Daniel]

I was going to enroll my son in Cub/Boy Scouts but I guess not. I didnt realize it was faith based. Oh well. Im not in to brain washing.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Daniel

[RobertNashville]

I can't help but wonder...for those of you who are having a problem with this and think that "allowing" homosexuals to be in the BSA is somehow changing or compromising "morals", do you let homosexuals into your church or do you forbid them from entering there too?  Do you let them in but make them sit in a special section so they can't spread homosexuality?

 

Are homosexuals unable to believe in a "god"?

 

Really, folks...if you want to exclude people who have or may have, in your opinion, immoral proclivities then you might as well close the damn doors to your church because not a SINGLE ONE OF YOU would qualify to go inside.

Edited May 24, 2013 by RobertNashville

[Chucktshoes]

I can't help but wonder...for those of you who are having a problem with this and think that "allowing" homosexuals to be in the BSA is somehow changing or compromising "morals", do you let homosexuals into your church or do you forbid them from entering there too? Do you let them in but make them sit in a special section so they can't spread homosexuality?

Are homosexuals unable to believe in a "god"?

Really, folks...if you want to exclude people who have or may have, in your opinion, immoral proclivities then you might as well close the damn doors to your church because not a SINGLE ONE OF YOU would qualify to go inside.

I'm reminded of an old adage about "if you ever find the perfect church, don't become a member. You will only ruin it."

[Dolomite`s Breezy]

I can't help but wonder...for those of you who are having a problem with this and think that "allowing" homosexuals to be in the BSA is somehow changing or compromising "morals", do you let homosexuals into your church or do you forbid them from entering there too?  Do you let them in but make them sit in a special section so they can't spread homosexuality?

 

Are homosexuals unable to believe in a "god"?

 

Really, folks...if you want to exclude people who have or may have, in your opinion, immoral proclivities then you might as well close the damn doors to your church because not a SINGLE ONE OF YOU would qualify to go inside.

THIS  needed to be quoted..Finaly a post that says it all..Thanks.. 

:up:

[TrickyNicky]

I can't help but wonder...for those of you who are having a problem with this and think that "allowing" homosexuals to be in the BSA is somehow changing or compromising "morals", do you let homosexuals into your church or do you forbid them from entering there too?  Do you let them in but make them sit in a special section so they can't spread homosexuality?
 
Are homosexuals unable to believe in a "god"?
 
Really, folks...if you want to exclude people who have or may have, in your opinion, immoral proclivities then you might as well close the damn doors to your church because not a SINGLE ONE OF YOU would qualify to go inside.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Thank you Robert, you have summed this matter up quite well IMO.

It's somewhat surprising how many people find homosexuals to be completely immoral and untrustworthy yet at the same time would deny gay boys the opertunity to join an organization centered around building morals and trustworthiness. I don't get it.

[Moped]

I think the BSA decision affects only scouts, not scout leaders. That said, does any parent really want their seven year old at a BSA camp with a 16 year old gay scout? I, for one, wouldn't take the chance. Just my feeling on the issue.

 

That can't happen.  As any Cub Scout parent knows, Cub Scouts are not allowed to go on overnight camp outs with out a parent or guardian being present.  The rules are very specific and strict.  Cub Scouts cannot become Boy Scouts until they are 11 years old.  Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts are entirely two different organizations under the BSA Organization.

 

Also under BSA organization are Venturing.  Venturing includes young men and WOMEN,14 to 21.  And they do all thing same things Scouting does.  Many Boy Scouts go on to become Venture Scouts and many are both.

[Mister L]

Sad day, nothing more wrong than 2 boys kissing.

[Dolomite`s Breezy]

Sad day, nothing more wrong than 2 boys kissing.

And you have observed that in the BSA when? ...

[Smith]

I can't help but wonder...for those of you who are having a problem with this and think that "allowing" homosexuals to be in the BSA is somehow changing or compromising "morals", do you let homosexuals into your church or do you forbid them from entering there too?  Do you let them in but make them sit in a special section so they can't spread homosexuality?

 

Are homosexuals unable to believe in a "god"?

 

Really, folks...if you want to exclude people who have or may have, in your opinion, immoral proclivities then you might as well close the damn doors to your church because not a SINGLE ONE OF YOU would qualify to go inside.

 

All people are welcome in the church but not all are welcome to join. Joining means you agree with and adhere to certain principles and moral stadards, otherwise you simply have a social group that has no point. Church is not about being perfect. It is however, about working towards that objective.

 

While homosexuals are free to worship and attend anywhere they may choose, they are not free to change fundamental beliefs or principals. It would be like a Muslim attending a Southern Baptist Church and then demanding they change their beliefs because they are offensive to him. Can't happen? It already is.

 

This whole thing about gays in the Boy Scouts has nothing to do with the boys who are members who may or may not be gay. IIRC sexuality is not a part of the BSA curriculum. It has to do with mandating that the organization allow leadership that contradicts its own principals and beliefs in order to fundamentally change core beliefs.

 

If there is that much demand for gay scouts then by all means start a gay scout group but quite trying to mandate that the BSA equivocate for a few.

[TMF]

Not being sarcastic, I genuinely would like someone to tell me how this would change anything in terms of the kids. Since it's safe to assume there have always been gay boys in scouts there will always continue to be gay boys no matter their policy. Considering that sexual orientation isn't a topic discussed or relevant at scouting events, what would change? Do they talk about the awesomeness of banging chicks at their jamborees or how great it is to have meaningful hetero-style sex? If not I don't see why gay sex would be a topic for discussion or celebration either.

For those of you who were in scouts you should be aware that based on law of averages there were many gay boys you've interacted with in your den/pack. What would change if they had embraced their gayness in their personal lives versus not admitting it? Your comfort level?

[RobertNashville]

All people are welcome in the church but not all are welcome to join. Joining means you agree with and adhere to certain principles and moral stadards, otherwise you simply have a social group that has no point. Church is not about being perfect. It is however, about working towards that objective.

 

While homosexuals are free to worship and attend anywhere they may choose, they are not free to change fundamental beliefs or principals. It would be like a Muslim attending a Southern Baptist Church and then demanding they change their beliefs because they are offensive to him. Can't happen? It already is.

 

This whole thing about gays in the Boy Scouts has nothing to do with the boys who are members who may or may not be gay. IIRC sexuality is not a part of the BSA curriculum. It has to do with mandating that the organization allow leadership that contradicts its own principals and beliefs in order to fundamentally change core beliefs.

 

If there is that much demand for gay scouts then by all means start a gay scout group but quite trying to mandate that the BSA equivocate for a few.

Tell me specifically, what gay organization(s) are demanding that the BSA change its "beliefs"?  Pray tell, what ARE BSA's "beliefs"...can you even articulate them?  It seems to me you are superimposing your personal beliefs on an organization...do you even have a dog is this fight (are you in the BSA, have a son in BSA, etc.)?

 

What exactly are you concerned about now that homosexual boys are allowed to join BSA? Do you think gay orgies are inevitable or are you afraid that homosexuality is a communicable disease???

 

When it comes to my religious beliefs and my church I agree that I am not going to change my personal religious beliefs about the homosexual act being a sin nor do I want my church to change its position either. But is a significant difference between someone "joining" my church to be a member and worship there compared to someone joining and then demanding that my church change to say a sin is now no longer a sin.

 

Are you suggesting that your church or any other church has no members who cheat on taxes, lie, steel, commit adultery, watch internet porn, masturbate, swear, have impure thoughts???

Maybe your church has only perfect people in it buy mine and every church I've ever belonged to had a lot of people who were not so perfect and if membership were denied to everyone who had ever committed a sin (or thought about doing so) there would be no one in church.

Edited May 24, 2013 by RobertNashville

[RobertNashville]

Not being sarcastic, I genuinely would like someone to tell me how this would change anything in terms of the kids. Since it's safe to assume there have always been gay boys in scouts there will always continue to be gay boys no matter their policy. Considering that sexual orientation isn't a topic discussed or relevant at scouting events, what would change? Do they talk about the awesomeness of banging chicks at their jamborees or how great it is to have meaningful hetero-style sex? If not I don't see why gay sex would be a topic for discussion or celebration either.

For those of you who were in scouts you should be aware that based on law of averages there were many gay boys you've interacted with in your den/pack. What would change if they had embraced their gayness in their personal lives versus not admitting it? Your comfort level?

I don't believe there is any difference whatsoever.

 

In all the years I was in Cub Scouts and then Boy Scouts and then worked as an adult volunteer I can't remember a single instance where "sex" was ever a topic of discussion or had anything to do with anything we were doing which is as it should be.

 

There are gay people in our society and it's HIGHLY likely that everyone here works with gay people, and/or worships with gay people and yes, are or were in Boy Scouts with gay boys but no one knew because the gay people were and are like the vast majority of people; they simply live their lives and keep their sexual desire in the bedroom where they belong.

 

Yes...I believe the Bible and I know the Bible says homosexuality is a sin. What I don't understand is why some  "Christians" will get all bent our of shape when the subject of homosexuality comes up but will give a wink and a nod if the subject is adultery or avoiding taxes.   :shrug:   

[Spook]

That can't happen.  As any Cub Scout parent knows, Cub Scouts are not allowed to go on overnight camp outs with out a parent or guardian being present.  The rules are very specific and strict.  Cub Scouts cannot become Boy Scouts until they are 11 years old.  Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts are entirely two different organizations under the BSA Organization.
 
Also under BSA organization are Venturing.  Venturing includes young men and WOMEN,14 to 21.  And they do all thing same things Scouting does.  Many Boy Scouts go on to become Venture Scouts and many are both.

Thanks. I thought the older Boy Scouts mentored the younger kids and helped them but wasn't inferring they went out without adult supervision.

I was kicked out of Cub Scouts in 1960 for being a hell raiser. (The last straw was running through the pack mother's new screen door.) Haven't had any contact with them since but I didn't hold any grudges. LOL. Now if I had known about Venturing I might have taken a different approach.

[Smith]

I don't believe there is any difference whatsoever.

 

In all the years I was in Cub Scouts and then Boy Scouts and then worked as an adult volunteer I can't remember a single instance where "sex" was ever a topic of discussion or had anything to do with anything we were doing which is as it should be.

 

There are gay people in our society and it's HIGHLY likely that everyone here works with gay people, and/or worships with gay people and yes, are or were in Boy Scouts with gay boys but no one knew because the gay people were and are like the vast majority of people; they simply live their lives and keep their sexual desire in the bedroom where they belong.

 

Yes...I believe the Bible and I know the Bible says homosexuality is a sin. What I don't understand is why some  "Christians" will get all bent our of shape when the subject of homosexuality comes up but will give a wink and a nod if the subject is adultery or avoiding taxes.   :shrug:   

 

Inconsistency in application of truth does not negate all truth Robert. Attacking Christians for inconsistency in morals is a red herring and you know it. The fact that some struggle in application of truth and morals in "grey" areas does not mean they have no voice when there are clear violations of their morals or beliefs in other areas.

 

Has anyone read the BSA Scout Oath? Scout Law? Venturing Oath or Venturing Law? Pretty sure you know those Robert and have agreed to dedicate your life to those principals, beliefs, and ideas. Who's inconsistent? Yes, they will have to be amended. ;) So, when I say they will have to fundamentally change their position and beliefs ...I am correct.

 

Scout Oath

"On my honor, I will do my best, to do my duty, to God and my country, to obey the Scout Law, to help other people at all times, and to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight."

 

Scout Law

"A scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent."

 

The Venturing Oath

As a Venturer, I promise to do my duty to God and help strengthen America, to help others, and to seek truth, fairness, and adventure in our world.

 

The Venturing Code

As a Venturer, I believe that America's strength lies in our trust in God and in the courage, strength, and traditions of our people

[RobertNashville]

Inconsistency in application of truth does not negate all truth Robert. Attacking Christians for inconsistency in morals is a red herring and you know it. The fact that some struggle in application of truth and morals in "grey" areas does not mean they have no voice when there are clear violations of their morals or beliefs in other areas.

 

Has anyone read the BSA Scout Oath? Scout Law? Venturing Oath or Venturing Law? Pretty sure you know those Robert and have agreed to dedicate your life to those principals, beliefs, and ideas. Who's inconsistent? Yes, they will have to be amended. ;) So, when I say they will have to fundamentally change their position and beliefs ...I am correct.

 

Scout Oath

"On my honor, I will do my best, to do my duty, to God and my country, to obey the Scout Law, to help other people at all times, and to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight."

 

Scout Law

"A scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent."

 

The Venturing Oath

As a Venturer, I promise to do my duty to God and help strengthen America, to help others, and to seek truth, fairness, and adventure in our world.

 

The Venturing Code

As a Venturer, I believe that America's strength lies in our trust in God and in the courage, strength, and traditions of our people

I've read them and I took most of them and there is not ITEM ONE in any of those oaths that would prevent a homosexual boy from taking those oaths and living up to them completely...NOTHING (well, nothing except for what you want to add in as an additional requirement which is that the scout taking those oaths must believe in god the way you believe in god).

 

 

 

P.S.

I noticed that you didn't answer my question for post No. 71...Do you actually have a dog int this fight?...Are you currently involved in scouting'; either as an adult leader or have a son currently involved?

Edited May 24, 2013 by RobertNashville