Boy Scouts Allow Gays

[Guest Charis]

Membership policies served the scouts and its families well up to this point. Don't forget that the vast majority of those families had no problem with the policy as it stood before the change. It was reversed to placate a minority that many people is much larger because they scream really, really loudly.

 

Just another great example of the tyranny of the minority.

 

Yes... much like blacks being allowed to vote and drink out of the same fountains and eat at the lunch counters.

 

Certainly they do. They require that you obey all laws; they do a background check, credit check, and even ask questions about your driving record. 
 

 

I did word my statement very carefully, and I just read the page I believe you got that from, and my statement remains true. They have no SPECIFIC policy against anything I mentioned, though they do have a policy of deciding people are guilty even if proven innocent of an allegation of inappropriate behavior with a child, and no mention that I saw (I only read the page that you quoted from) of exactly what "inappropriate behavior" means. 

[DaveTN]

Yes... much like blacks being allowed to vote and drink out of the same fountains and eat at the lunch counters.

You are comparing civil rights to moral standards?
 

I did word my statement very carefully, and I just read the page I believe you got that from, and my statement remains true. They have no SPECIFIC policy against anything I mentioned, though they do have a policy of deciding people are guilty even if proven innocent of an allegation of inappropriate behavior with a child, and no mention that I saw (I only read the page that you quoted from) of exactly what "inappropriate behavior" means.

Doesn’t matter how you worded it you are implying that they don’t have a policy against murders, child molesters and those that commit domestic violence. Nothing could be further from the truth. They are a private social group; they don’t need a criminal conviction to ban someone.

There are also jobs you can apply for that will reject you for criminal or immoral behavior whether you are convicted or not. You aren’t entitled to a job or membership in a social group.

[daddyo]

Yes... much like blacks being allowed to vote and drink out of the same fountains and eat at the lunch counters.

Race is completely different from behavior. Apples to orangutans. Irrelevant.

[RobertNashville]

Membership policies served the scouts and its families well up to this point. Don't forget that the vast majority of those families had no problem with the policy as it stood before the change. It was reversed to placate a minority that many people is much larger because they scream really, really loudly.

 

Just another great example of the tyranny of the minority.

You've surveyed them all???  I doubt it.

 

More to the point, the BSA DID survey; I know because I was a part of it.

 

Do you know what the final findings of the survey was?

[RobertNashville]

Doesn’t matter how you worded it you are implying that they don’t have a policy against murders, child molesters and those that commit domestic violence. Nothing could be further from the truth. They are a private social group; they don’t need a criminal conviction to ban someone.

There are also jobs you can apply for that will reject you for criminal or immoral behavior whether you are convicted or not. You aren’t entitled to a job or membership in a social group.

It seems as if you eliminated 90% of Charis's post to make a small point.

 

They can have or not have any policy they want but that's not the point...the point is why have a policy against the "sin" of homosexuality (which I contend being a homosexual isn't, itself a sin anyway) but completely ignore/have no policy regarding any other "sin"?  

 

They have the right to have the policy...sure...they had to right to say we aren't going to change...but it still shows a disturbing pattern of discrimination and for reasons I think any in the BSA leadership would have a very tough time explaining.

Edited May 30, 2013 by RobertNashville

[daddyo]

You've surveyed them all??? I doubt it.

More to the point, the BSA DID survey; I know because I was a part of it.

Do you know what the final findings of the survey was?

I never said I surveyed them all. You're assuming that the survey was representative of the majority of families, many of whom were never asked to be a part of the survey. But somehow I believe if the results had fallen the other way, you would have questioned them. This just shows that any survey can be manipulated to achieve the desired results.

I am basing my opinion on my own experience as a leader and from talking to many people who were also directly involved at the unit, district, and council levels. I wasn't able to find a single person who was in favor of changing the membership policy. Edited May 30, 2013 by daddyo

[Will Carry]

The painting by Norman Rockwell speaks for itself.

 

 

Edited May 30, 2013 by Will Carry

[Garufa]

What do Scottish scouts have to do with anything?

[daddyo]

The painting by Norman Rockwell speaks for itself.

Not sure what your point is. The painting depicts an American scout learning a traditional Scottish dance from Scottish scouts wearing traditional Scottish attire.

The message is, of course, that scouting is a worldwide organization and fosters brotherhood among its members.

Norman Rockwell was a big supporter of the scouting program.

[45guy]

 

How about one of the 7 DEADLY sins... will that work?

 

Gluttony.

 

or Sloth.

 

or Wrath.

 

or... wait... how about any single one of the 7 DEADLY sins... when has any one of these WORST THING EVER sins, that require all sorts of special things to get forgiven for (if you happen to be of the catholic version of Christianity), been even half as vehemently opposed as some one having sex with someone the same gender they are?

 

Commit any of these DEADLY sins, and you can say your sorry and still get married, take care of your partners medical issues, or any number of other things... including being a boy scout or leader.

 

Now I suppose you could wrap up homosexual acts and/or homosexuality with Lust, and try very hard to go with saying that Christians are really arguing against lust, except that it is only a certain kind of lust, and almost exclusively a certain kind of lust in only the males of the species, since I don't know a single straight male that look at two women getting it on, and have the same "revulsion" reflex. I'm sure there are some, somewhere, but even having moved as much as I have, and meeting as many people as I have, I haven't met one yet, so they can't be all that common.

 

This, as far as I am concerned, is just another case of choosing your sin and lambasting the ones you DON'T participate in as if they are actually more evil than what you are doing.

 

Are you wearing anything that is made or partially of an unnatural fabric?  SIN.

Are you wearing more than one type of natural fiber? SIN.

Let's not even THINK about if you are wearing something that is poly-cotton AND leather shoes...

Have you ever touched or eaten an animal that is considered unclean? SIN. (I am forever a sinner, I refuse to give up bacon, and I am unrepentant)

Are you a person that does not pay your employees every single day? SIN.

Have you ever eaten fat? SIN.

Have you ever cut your hair or shaved your face? SIN.

Are you wearing gold, pearls, or costly clothing? SIN.

Have you been divorced, and are now remarried or have a lover? You are an adulterer, and you are to be put to death.

 

These are just a few of the over 70 sins distinctly pointed out in the same place as the single mention of something that sounds like homosexuality NOW (I'm still not convinced it meant the same thing THEN, after all, the church did just have a whole meeting to decide if "booty" should be left in the bible, because of the difference in meaning between then and now)

 

The BSA has no specific policy against any of those things, nor against murderers, child molesters (almost never homosexual according to scientific research), or those that beat their children and wives damn near to death every other day... but THIS... this is what they needed to have a solid policy about?

Many of the sins you mentioned were cultural or specific sins for a specific group of people. Let’s look at the Old Testament (old agreement) and the New Testament (new agreement).

 

Matthew 5-17 Jesus says he came to fulfill the law not do away with it. So what laws did Jesus deal with in the new agreement?

 

Romans 1:27-32 "And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved. Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too."

1 Corinthians 6:9--Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
"Don’t you know that the unrighteous will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be deceived: No sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, or anyone practicing homosexuality,"

1 Timothy 1:9-10--New International Version (NIV)
"We also know that the law is made not for the righteous, but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine."

Revelation 21:8--New International Version (NIV)
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

 

The Bible does not describe homosexuality as a “greater” sin than any other. All sin is offensive to God. Homosexuality is just one of the many things listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that will keep a person from the kingdom of God. According to the Bible, God’s forgiveness is just as available to a homosexual as it is to an adulterer, idol worshipper, murderer, thief, etc. God also promises the strength for victory over sin, including homosexuality, to all those who will believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation (1 Corinthians 6:11; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Philippians 4:13).

Edited May 30, 2013 by 45guy

[RobertNashville]

I never said I surveyed them all. You're assuming that the survey was representative of the majority of families, many of whom were never asked to be a part of the survey. But somehow I believe if the results had fallen the other way, you would have questioned them. This just shows that any survey can be manipulated to achieve the desired results.

I am basing my opinion on my own experience as a leader and from talking to many people who were also directly involved at the unit, district, and council levels. I wasn't able to find a single person who was in favor of changing the membership policy.

While almost everyone does it, anecdotal evidence is a poor basis on which to make assumptions about...well...about much of anything.

 

The BSA surveyed a wide variety of groups, most importantly, those current and former members of the BSA which is why I was included...it was a pretty comprehensive, scientific survey; I give far more credence to the results of a survey like that any day over personal/anecdotal experience...even over my own personal experiences.

 

I might also suggest that before you start making assumptions about the results of the surveys go take a look at the results. for yourself.

[daddyo]

My experience also tells me that a majority of people can be in favor of something and still be wrong.

[RobertNashville]

My experience also tells me that a majority of people can be in favor of something and still be wrong.

My experience also tells me that a majority of people can be in favor of something and be right....my experience also tells me that personal experience is untrustworthy as a basis for making wide-reaching decisions or forming opinions.

 

The results of the surveys conducted are not "right" or "wrong" anyway...it was asking what people believed...their opinions; not a math problem where 2 + 2 = 4 and answering "3" is a wrong answer.

Edited May 30, 2013 by RobertNashville

[RichardR]

My experience also tells me that a majority of people can be in favor of something and be right....my experience also tells me that personal experience is untrustworthy as a basis for making wide-reaching decisions or forming opinions.

The results of the surveys conducted are not "right" or "wrong" anyway...it was asking what people believed...their opinions; not a math problem where 2 + 2 = 4 and answering "3" is a wrong answer.

It's not a right or wrong answer, nor is the equasion's answer infallable & absolute like in mathmatics.

People can also be right, for the wrong reasons, or wrong for the right reasons.

The question that the BSA faced was "what was best for the Scouting program?"

1.) Contine fighting a loosing battle against the homosexual activists?

Or ..

2.) Surrender their values morals & principals and vote to modify membership policy to allow openly gay boys to become members.

Either way traditional Scouting is lost, at least this way maybe the kids who do remain in the program will be able to make use of public land & facilities again.

But the "moral core foundation" of the Scouting program has been forever corrupted.

Which was probably the whole intention behind the opposition to begin with, there will not be some sort of massive wave of openly gay boys joining the Scouts who had been waiting all of their lives to participate in Scouting.

Sadly the opposite is much more likely, ie a massive wave of devote Christian children will probably abandon the Scouting program.

Right, wrong, doesn't matter, the damage has been done, another once great traditional American institution is taken down by subversives.

[RobertNashville]

It's not a right or wrong answer, nor is the equasion's answer infallable & absolute like in mathmatics.

People can also be right, for the wrong reasons, or wrong for the right reasons.

The question that the BSA faced was "what was best for the Scouting program?"

1.) Contine fighting a loosing battle against the homosexual activists?

Or ..

2.) Surrender their values morals & principals and vote to modify membership policy to allow openly gay boys to become members.

Either way traditional Scouting is lost, at least this way maybe the kids who do remain in the program will be able to make use of public land & facilities again.

But the "moral core foundation" of the Scouting program has been forever corrupted.

Which was probably the whole intention behind the opposition to begin with, there will not be some sort of massive wave of openly gay boys joining the Scouts who had been waiting all of their lives to participate in Scouting.

Sadly the opposite is much more likely, ie a massive wave of devote Christian children will probably abandon the Scouting program.

Right, wrong, doesn't matter, the damage has been done, another once great traditional American institution is taken down by subversives.

What "moral core foundation" are you talking about...what "values morals & principles" are they surrendering?

 

I think you are trying to ascribe YOUR personal moral code to the BSA but since the BSA is NOT a religious organization it's a fool's errand. Have you even read the BSA's Declaration of Religious Principle?  If so, please feel free to point out precisely how this policy change violates it.

 

Traditional scouting is not "lost". I'm sure some hysterical parents will pull their child out of scouts to make sure they don't catch the "gay gene" but that will be it.  BSA may end but if it does it will probably be because kids would rather play CoD than pitch a tent.

Edited May 30, 2013 by RobertNashville

[RichardR]

I think you are trying to ascribe YOUR personal moral code to the BSA.

You have it backwards.

It's the homosexual activists & their supporters such as yourself, who've been forcing acceptance their immorals on to the BSA & it's host organizations.

[Guest Charis]

You are comparing civil rights to moral standards?
 

Doesn’t matter how you worded it you are implying that they don’t have a policy against murders, child molesters and those that commit domestic violence. Nothing could be further from the truth. They are a private social group; they don’t need a criminal conviction to ban someone.

There are also jobs you can apply for that will reject you for criminal or immoral behavior whether you are convicted or not. You aren’t entitled to a job or membership in a social group.

 

No, I am comparing civil rights with civil rights, your personal moral standards are of no interest to me. You should really check out the things that were said by Christians when explaining their moral high ground to have slaves, and if they could not have slaves, to make sure that those dirty people were kept separate from them and their poor innocent children. They were the *exact* same arguments, just different quotes from the bible. 

 

 

Race is completely different from behavior. Apples to orangutans. Irrelevant.

 

Race is more evident than feeling and belief, I do not believe that makes anything irrelevant, just easier for you to try and dismiss. I also do not believe that behaving as feels natural to you with another consenting adult is simply BEHAVIOR, it is who you are, or if you will, how God made you.

 

 

You have it backwards.

It's the homosexual activists & their supporters such as yourself, who've been forcing acceptance their immorals on to the BSA & it's host organizations.

 

I do not find homosexuals or their activities immoral.

 

So maybe they are forcing my morals instead of yours, so I must ask... What makes yours more right than mine, since I am a straight white mother and not one of your radical and evil homosexuals, or even an activist, since discussions like this are pretty much the extent of my involvement?

[Guest Charis]

Many of the sins you mentioned were cultural or specific sins for a specific group of people. Let’s look at the Old Testament (old agreement) and the New Testament (new agreement).

 

Matthew 5-17 Jesus says he came to fulfill the law not do away with it. So what laws did Jesus deal with in the new agreement?

 

Romans 1:27-32 "And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved. Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too."

1 Corinthians 6:9--Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
"Don’t you know that the unrighteous will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be deceived: No sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, or anyone practicing homosexuality,"

1 Timothy 1:9-10--New International Version (NIV)
"We also know that the law is made not for the righteous, but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine."

Revelation 21:8--New International Version (NIV)
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

 

The Bible does not describe homosexuality as a “greater” sin than any other. All sin is offensive to God. Homosexuality is just one of the many things listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that will keep a person from the kingdom of God. According to the Bible, God’s forgiveness is just as available to a homosexual as it is to an adulterer, idol worshipper, murderer, thief, etc. God also promises the strength for victory over sin, including homosexuality, to all those who will believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation (1 Corinthians 6:11; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Philippians 4:13).

 

The bible does not mention homosexuality at all. It mentions a acts that could be construed as homosexual acts, but never the word homosexual or homosexuality. The WORD homosexual is less than 100 years old, and started showing up in certain bibles in 1946.

 

I am of the belief that this is humans trying to impose their personal beliefs on what is supposed to be Gods words, and I am afraid that I simply can not accept that AND accept that I am supposed to follow those words as moral right or wrong. 

 

On this one we will simply have to agree to disagree and go merrily about our way.

[RobertNashville]

You have it backwards.

It's the homosexual activists & their supporters such as yourself, who've been forcing acceptance their immorals on to the BSA & it's host organizations.

So that's how it's going to be; you ignore 95% of my post you "quoted" then make a not so veiled insult that I'm a homosexual "activist/supporter"?

 

How about you answer my questions?

 

1. What "moral core foundation" are you talking about?

2. What "values morals & principles" are they (BSA) surrendering?

3. Have you even read the BSA's Declaration of Religious Principle? If so, point out precisely how this policy change violates it.

 

You and others have been asserting through this entire thread that somehow, the BSA is being "forced" to compromise its morals...I think it's about time those making that asserting show precisely how...direct me to where I can go to read that "moral core foundation" you assert they have so that I can see how this change in policy violates it.

[RobertNashville]

The bible does not mention homosexuality at all. It mentions a acts that could be construed as homosexual acts, but never the word homosexual or homosexuality. The WORD homosexual is less than 100 years old, and started showing up in certain bibles in 1946.

 

I am of the belief that this is humans trying to impose their personal beliefs on what is supposed to be Gods words, and I am afraid that I simply can not accept that AND accept that I am supposed to follow those words as moral right or wrong. 

 

On this one we will simply have to agree to disagree and go merrily about our way.

Absolutely correct.

 

I've been a Christian for over 45 years; I've taken classes on theology and I still cannot understand why some Christians seem to have a special burr up their backside about homosexuals nor why they seem incapable of divorcing themselves from being a homosexual (someone attracted to the same sex) and "unnatural acts" as described in the Bible and clearly identified as immoral.

[RichardR]

I do not find homosexuals or their activities immoral.

So maybe they are forcing my morals instead of yours, so I must ask... What makes yours more right than mine, since I am a straight white mother and not one of your radical and evil homosexuals, or even an activist, since discussions like this are pretty much the extent of my involvement?

Moral relativism does not belong in Scouting, the two are diametrically opposed, or at least they used to be.

Of course folks who's moral compass is broken can't seem to (or simply refuse to) comprehend how/why traditional morality & family values are so important to our society, or why it is so important for us to teach them to each new generation.

Of course this is Amerika 2.0 & we do things differently now, don't we eh comrade?

[TMF]

No one has answered my question regarding how this policy will change anything in regard to how scouting activities are conducted.

[c.a.willard]

That would be because it wont,  well with the exception that it will give the scouts access to more land for scouting activities

[Garufa]

Somebody PM me when the gays have completed their world domination so I can run around in a Kilt and have all the hot women to myself.  :D

Edited May 31, 2013 by Garufa

[TMF]

Somebody PM me when the gays have completed their world domination so I can run around in a Kilt and have all the hot women to myself. :D

They'll all be lesbians though once their minds are corrupted. Try to keep up.