Boy Scouts Allow Gays

[daddyo]

No more than you would expect the gays to roll over and take it. No one is forcing anything on anyone. There was a vote, and majority spoke. End of story.

Ah, so you would be ok with the majority voting in favor of something that you are against, say, univeral background checks? Or maybe even Barack Obama as President?

 

Mob rule is never a good thing. And I disagree - the gay lobby is fundamentally changing society, step by step, and not in a good way.

Edited May 25, 2013 by daddyo

[TripleDigitRide]

The churches aren't trying to force laws on everyone like the gay lobby is. You still don't have to go to church, do you?

Show some apples to apples evidence of this, please.

I would disagree. The pro-life versus pro-choice is the first thing that comes to mind. The right/religious-right has been doing everything in their power to put an end to abortion. No one is forcing those who are pro-life to have an abortion, yet pro-lifers want to tell everyone else they can't have an abortion. How 'bout everyone live their lives as they see fit, as long as it doesn't directly interfere someone else's. 

 

As someone who's neither gay nor religious, I don't give a damn how you choose to live your life, and I don't give a damn how Adam & Steve live theirs. As long as none of you try to force me to follow you religious beliefs or force me to be gay, we could be great friends. I have friends from all walks of life, with varying religious beliefs and sexual preferences. Never once do I sit around and dwell on how much differently they are living their lives than I am, and I wouldn't or couldn't live the way they've chosen.

 

Some people have far too much time on their hands. I have one short life to live, and I can't fathom sitting around and worrying how everyone else is living their life and why. In the end, none of this matters.  As far as I am concerned, it's just one big pissing contest. 

[TMF]

Ah, so you would be ok with the majority voting in favor of something that you are against, say, univeral background checks?

Well this was a private organization. If the owners of Chick-fil-A come out tomorrow and decide to become a non-profit in support of gay marriage it would be the choice of the organization. BSoA did NOT have to change their policy. They put their funding over their convictions, plain and simple. They could have just as easily decided to exclude gay youths, but they didn't.

Kinda like chicks who blow their boss in order to get a job. Yeah, they might not have gotten the job unless they went to their knees, but it was them who choose to kneel and abandon their dignity.

[TripleDigitRide]

Ah, so you would be ok with the majority voting in favor of something that you are against, say, univeral background checks?

Of course I'm not in favor of universal background checks, but what are we going to do if such a law is passed? You can either follow the rules or not. I didn't vote for Obama, but I am forced to live with it for the time being. I'm certainly not going to cry about it. It is what it is, and we have a chance to change it.

[RichardR]

No more than you would expect the gays to roll over and take it. No one is forcing anything on anyone. There was a vote, and majority spoke. End of story.

The "majority" was only that of the top tier trusties, the rank & file leadership, the host organizations, the parents & the actual Scout members were not included or even had their views accurately represented in that vote.

We'll see the outcome of the actual "majority" vote when troops all over the country start disappearing as traditional value organizations & folks withdraw their participation & funding from Scouting.

[mav]

I would disagree. The pro-life versus pro-choice is the first thing that comes to mind. The right/religious-right has been doing everything in their power to put an end to abortion. No one is forcing those who are pro-life to have an abortion, yet pro-lifers want to tell everyone else they can't have an abortion. How 'bout everyone live their lives as they see fit, as long as it doesn't directly interfere someone else's. 

 

 

I would disagree with you on that point.  Abortion is an entirely different matter.  I won't expound further as I do not want to turn this into an abortion debate.

[daddyo]

Well this was a private organization. If the owners of Chick-fil-A come out tomorrow and decide to become a non-profit in support of gay marriage it would be the choice of the organization. BSoA did NOT have to change their policy. They put their funding over their convictions, plain and simple. They could have just as easily decided to exclude gay youths, but they didn't.

Kinda like chicks who blow their boss in order to get a job. Yeah, they might not have gotten the job unless they went to their knees, but it was them who choose to kneel and abandon their dignity.

 

You're absolutely correct - it was about membership and funding and not about the program. However, if the local councils have autonomy, then those like the Middle TN Council will tell National where they can stick it.

 

We are living in evil times.

Edited May 25, 2013 by daddyo

[TMF]

You're absolutely correct - it was about membership and funding and not about the program. However, if the local councils have autonomy, then those like the Middle TN Council will tell National where they can stick it.

We are living in evil times.

If their rules support it by all means, but I have a feeling this will fracture the organization along those lines. Personally, I just can't imagine telling a parent or child they are being removed from scouts because they don't like girls. I would feel very poor about myself if I were in that position.

[daddyo]

If their rules support it by all means, but I have a feeling this will fracture the organization along those lines. Personally, I just can't imagine telling a parent or child they are being removed from scouts because they don't like girls. I would feel very poor about myself if I were in that position.

 

I don't believe they would kick someone out because they didn't like girls. If I were a parent and my son came home and said another boy made a pass at him, I would be on the phone with the scoutmaster.

 

Just like in the military, it has no place in the Boy Scouts.

[TMF]

I don't believe they would kick someone out because they didn't like girls. If I were a parent and my son came home and said another boy made a pass at him, I would be on the phone with the scoutmaster.

Well I think that is a different case entirely. If one kid makes inappropriate sexual advances anywhere (scouting/school/sports) I would want action taken against the offending youth, but that isn't what is being discussed here. Your operating on the assumptions that them gays can't keep it in their pants. Granted, I've only worked with a few gays (that were out of the closet) prior to entering the military, and none of them were the "in your face" types. It leads me to believe that the stereotypical screaming queens aren't the majority.

Either way, since sexual orientation and related subjects are inappropriate topics in terms of scouting curriculum, it shouldn't be an issue that rises, and if it does should be addressed and quashed.

[RED333]

I will say this, even though we dont all see the same view on this we do keep it

on a good note, thanks guys, very good thread.

Robert I do see you side of this, thanks for letting us know.

Guys, it is a tuff time in our great country, things are gona change and a lot

of them we will not like, some we will.

We just have to wait and see what they are.

Thanks again for a great thread.

[Ramjo]

The BSA is NOT a Christian organization.

Declaration of Religious Principle

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which a member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to this Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of membership.

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/Relationships/ManualforChaplainsandAides.aspx

The Scout Oath is: On my honor I will do my best, to do my duty to GOD and my country. To obey the scout law, to help other people at all times, and to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and MORALLY STRAIGHT.

Scouting was started in 1910 and it was certainly surrounded by Christian values. Society today is just corrupting every good thing there ever was.

[BigK]

...The way some churches operate today they are like hospitals who won't allow any sick people through the doors.

Sick people that show up at a hospital are there because they are sick and want to be healed.
Sinners who show up at church to cleanse their soul are always welcome. They find themselves unwelcome only when they deny their sins are wrong or asking that they be ignored. So if a church bans unrepentant gays, how can they expect to be welcome?

I would disagree. The pro-life versus pro-choice is the first thing that comes to mind. The right/religious-right has been doing everything in their power to put an end to abortion. No one is forcing those who are pro-life to have an abortion, yet pro-lifers want to tell everyone else they can't have an abortion. How 'bout everyone live their lives as they see fit, as long as it doesn't directly interfere someone else's. ...

I can't fathom how being anti-abortion is a "right/religious-right" crusade. It's got nothing to do with one side forcing their religious views on others - unless murder is only morally wrong to people who are religious . Everyone should stand up for an unborn, innocent child in danger of being killed. Edited May 26, 2013 by BigK

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I would disagree. The pro-life versus pro-choice is the first thing that comes to mind. The right/religious-right has been doing everything in their power to put an end to abortion. No one is forcing those who are pro-life to have an abortion, yet pro-lifers want to tell everyone else they can't have an abortion. How 'bout everyone live their lives as they see fit, as long as it doesn't directly interfere someone else's. 

 

As someone who's neither gay nor religious, I don't give a damn how you choose to live your life, and I don't give a damn how Adam & Steve live theirs. As long as none of you try to force me to follow you religious beliefs or force me to be gay, we could be great friends. I have friends from all walks of life, with varying religious beliefs and sexual preferences. Never once do I sit around and dwell on how much differently they are living their lives than I am, and I wouldn't or couldn't live the way they've chosen.

 

Some people have far too much time on their hands. I have one short life to live, and I can't fathom sitting around and worrying how everyone else is living their life and why. In the end, none of this matters.  As far as I am concerned, it's just one big pissing contest. 

The argument between the pro-choice and the religious right, as you call it, is not the same kind of argument. One

involves mostly emotions and the other is between life and death, whether or not you agree. The religious community

is not only one of right leaning people, either, but the argument includes most of the religious community, with few

exceptions. I never spoke of my religion, so, whatever you wish to think, there.

 

Where the argument with the pro- choice crowd goes wrong is in its beginnings and the pro- choice crowd never

sought to explain further, only co-opt into the feminist movement of the 60's and 70's. You don't even have to be

religious to see the irrational argument made to abort babies, but I guess that should be left for another time.

 

Oh, and why would the religious right want to preserve life? Maybe because they have a higher value of life. As far

as religious beliefs go, has anyone ever tried to force you to believe anything? I can't say I have ever experienced

that.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

The Scout Oath is: On my honor I will do my best, to do my duty to GOD and my country. To obey the scout law, to help other people at all times, and to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and MORALLY STRAIGHT.

Scouting was started in 1910 and it was certainly surrounded by Christian values. Society today is just corrupting every good thing there ever was.

Being surrounded by Christian principles is not quite the same as a Christian organization. What he was pointing out

was that the organization was non sectarian, which involves much more than just Christians, kind of like the way Masons

view it, I think.

[TripleDigitRide]

Sick people that show up at a hospital are there because they are sick and want to be healed.
Sinners who show up at church to cleanse their soul are always welcome. They find themselves unwelcome only when they deny their sins are wrong or asking that they be ignored. So if a church bans unrepentant gays, how can they expect to be welcome?

I can't fathom how being anti-abortion is a "right/religious-right" crusade. It's got nothing to do with one side forcing their religious views on others - unless murder is only morally wrong to people who are religious . Everyone should stand up for an unborn, innocent child in danger of being killed.

Generally speaking, there is far more pressure from the right to end abortion. Also, generally speaking, the Right tends to base their opinions on religious beliefs. That's really the only point I was trying to make. 

 

As I stated before, I'm not gay or religious. Because of this, the gay issue couldn't mean less to me. My biggest problem, is the fact that we have so many on both sides who like to complain about some other group forcing their ideals, all while acting as if they don't do the very same thing. You can play semantics all day long, but as someone who doesn't have a dog in this fight, I think both sides are full of crap, turning it into something it isn't.  

 

For whatever reasons, BSA enrollment has dropped nearly 50% in the last 30-40 years, almost 15% in the last 10 or so years. Unless there's a mass exodus — which I don't believe there will be — the loss of members won't be anything new to the organization. As difficult as it is for many to swallow, the times and society are constantly changing.

 

As I said before, there are battles and wars I'm willing to fight, but this ain't one of them. Some claim this issue is somehow a political ploy by the Left, but I think you're giving the opposition far too much credit. If it is a ploy, you just fell into their trap by taking your eye off the ball. If a ploy at all, it's nothing more than a distraction, and I'm not willing to give them that much credit. 

 

Sadly, much like the BSA, the right-leaning Republicans are a dying breed. If we push away the minorities, the gays, and anyone else we don't completely agree with, we are left all alone. If you wish to stand by your convictions, no matter the outcome, I'm all for that. On the flip-side, if this is the path you choose, be willing to accept the consequences. Personally, I think the Right could be a little more flexible on certain subjects. Let God sort them out.  

[45guy]

One cannot force their religion on another. I cannot drag someone to heaven with me the same way they cannot drag me to hell with them. I do have a obligation though to tell them tell there is a heaven and a hell, but even if there was no heaven or hell I would still choose the Christian way just for the benefits in this life.

Jesus did hang out with sinners, since everyone is a sinner he had no choice. He did not condone their sin, as he told the woman at the well "go and sin no more".

[45guy]

Again, we do know. Go back and listen to the 911 call. Does Zman mention Black and hoodie somewhere in the conversation in reference to Trayvon? I hope I didn't imagine that.
 
Dave

  

Of course I'm not in favor of universal background checks, but what are we going to do if such a law is passed? You can either follow the rules or not. I didn't vote for Obama, but I am forced to live with it for the time being. I'm certainly not going to cry about it. It is what it is, and we have a chance to change it.

  

Di you expect the "religious" to merely roll over and take it up the derrière, so to speak?

  

If religious folks didn't impose their beliefs on everyone else (as they always seem to claim they don't), every single politician wouldn't need to pretend to be a God-fearing individual, abortion wouldn't be such a hot topic, etc. Everything is kosher, just as long as you're the only group shoving your agenda down the throats of others.

  

I'm sure he wouldn't or did...in fact, if you believe the BIble it's pretty clear that he surrounded himself with "sinners"; something a lot of modern Christians seem to forget.
 
The way some churches operate today they are like hospitals who won't allow any sick people through the doors.

One cannot force their religion on another. I cannot drag someone to heaven with me the same way they cannot drag me to hell with them. I do have a obligation though to tell them tell there is a heaven and a hell, but even if there was no heaven or hell I would still choose the Christian way just for the benefits in this life.

Jesus did hang out with sinners, since everyone is a sinner he had no choice. He did not condone their sin, as he told the woman at the well "go and sin no more".

[Mike.357]

 - the gay lobby is fundamentally changing society, step by step, and not in a good way.

 

 

explain the "not in a good way" part.

[TripleDigitRide]

One cannot force their religion on another. I cannot drag someone to heaven with me the same way they cannot drag me to hell with them. I do have a obligation though to tell them tell there is a heaven and a hell, but even if there was no heaven or hell I would still choose the Christian way just for the benefits in this life.

Jesus did hang out with sinners, since everyone is a sinner he had no choice. He did not condone their sin, as he told the woman at the well "go and sin no more".

You may not be able to force me into your religion, but when enough of you get together and vote for certain rules, laws etc. based on your religious beliefs, I am most certainly forced to live my life based on your religious beliefs. But that's the way out system currently operates, and I accept it for what it is.

[45guy]

You may not be able to force me into your religion, but when enough of you get together and vote for certain rules, laws etc. based on your religious beliefs, I am most certainly forced to live my life based on your religious beliefs. But that's the way out system currently operates, and I accept it for what it is.

Like what rules and laws are you talking about. If its abortion, that's a moral issue not religious. I consider it about personal responsibility. If you do not want a child then protect yourself or do not have sex. Our actions have consequeces . Having unprotected sex can have consequences. It is not the baby's fault. So why make the baby pay with it's life.

[BigK]

I think the biggest hit the BSA took was when they were banned from holding meetings in schools and from camping on public land. That seemed to me to make finding places to hold meetings more difficult and made it more difficult to get boys back and forth to the meetings and it made finding places to hold events like campouts very difficult.

Regardless of what the council voted, many disagree with the decision. If many parents of scouts are like me, they are against ANY open display or discussion of sexuality with their young boys, not just homosexuality. It's an issue that simply shouldn't have ever come up. Nobody in the BSA needs to know a kid's sexual tendencies and nobody there to be a scout needs for everyone to know. So their ranks will dwindle even more, b/c a few people have a perverse need for everyone to know their business. Edited May 26, 2013 by BigK

[daddyo]

explain the "not in a good way" part.

 

I really don't think I need to, do you?

[Mike.357]

yeas I kind of think you do need to define it or I would not have requested it

[daddyo]

yeas I kind of think you do need to define it or I would not have requested it

 

OK, well, I'm not sure what needs to be said other than I was raised to believe that homosexuality is abnormal and is not part of God's plan. Even after extensive thought and reading and talking to others about the subject, I have not seen, heard, or read anything that would warrant me changing my beliefs about it.

 

Even from only a biological standpoint, it's very obvious that the two sexes were created for a reason. IF homosexuality is innate, and I simply don't buy the hypothesis that it is, I believe it must be a genetic mutation. A man living in a woman's body or vice versa is simply incomprehensible to me.

 

There are people who have walked away from the homosexual lifestyle and gone on to live productive, normal lives, even raising families and being much happier for it.

 

Just a few of the reasons why I don't believe the impact that homosexuals are having on society is a good thing and is really all I have to say about it for now. I'm not going down the rabbit hole of why I believe the way I do. You aren't going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours, nor do I have any desire to spend the time trying.

 

As far as people living their lives the way they want to, I'm all for it. But it rubs my rhubarb when laws and rules are made that take society in what I consider to be the wrong direction.