Boy Scouts Allow Gays

[Smith]

I've read them and I took most of them and there is not ITEM ONE in any of those oaths that would prevent a homosexual boy from taking those oaths and living up to them completely...NOTHING (well, nothing except for what you want to add in as an additional requirement which is that the scout taking those oaths must believe in god the way you believe in god).

Really, that's how you read those? What God/god or basis of belief are you using to reconcile those oaths with your position? 

 

BTW - I believe in God the way he tells me to in the Bible, not in a subjective however I choose to interpret His Word within my context or culture.

[RobertNashville]

Really, that's how you read those? What God/god or basis of belief are you using to reconcile those oaths with your position? 
 
BTW - I believe in God the way he tells me to in the Bible, not in a subjective however I choose to interpret His Word within my context or culture.

What God I believe in is IRRELEVANT which was the point.

You still haven't answered my question???

[Smith]

What God I believe in is IRRELEVANT which was the point.

You still haven't answered my question???

Really? The God you pledged oaths to is irrelevant to how you conduct your life? 

 

Not sure participation is relevant to this discussion any more than being white is relevant to my opinion on Obama, but to ease your mind - Yes, I was a scout in my younger years, and have two young sons that have asked about becoming scouts. Do I qualify to participate? :) 

[Chadastrophic]

Sad day, nothing more wrong than 2 boys kissing.

You're right, rape and murder have nothing on 2 consenting humans kissing.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

[RobertNashville]

Really? The God you pledged oaths to is irrelevant to how you conduct your life? 

 

Not sure participation is relevant to this discussion any more than being white is relevant to my opinion on Obama, but to ease your mind - Yes, I was a scout in my younger years, and have two young sons that have asked about becoming scouts. Do I qualify to participate? :)

Of course, my personal beliefs are VERY relevant to ME and to all the oaths I've taken in my life but my personal beliefs are totally irrelevant (or should be) to an organization like the Boy Scouts of America and totally irrelevant with regards to what a child, who isn't my own, believes about "god".

 

I would be coming from a very different position if, for example, the BSA was specifically founded as a “Christian” organization with specified doctrine but, at least to the best of my knowledge, that is not the case. In fact, what is the case is that the BSA has always been completely open to all religious beliefs.

 

As to my question, I asked initially simply because I was curious as to why this was such a hot topic for you…when you didn't answer after the second time I was even more curious. ;)

Edited May 24, 2013 by RobertNashville

[Moped]

BSA recognizes many different Christian Sects as well as many religions outside Christianity. Within the Christian Sects are Catholics, most, if not all Protestant groups, Church of Later Day Saints (which sponsors more Troops than any other religious organization in the USA, yet is not recognized by many other Christian sects) and many others.  Jewish and Unitarian Universalists are also recognized.  Hindus, Jian, Muslims and Zoroastrains are recognized as well.  All use the same Scout Oath.  The word God is used to represent an individual Scout's belief ideals, and not a specific entity or belief system. 

 

Remember also, that not all Troops are sponsored by religious organizations. About 30% are sponsored by secular organizations, that have no adherence to a belief system, yet those Scouts also say the same oath.  But that oath does not bind a Scout to particular belief set or religion. not does BSA promote any particular belief set.

 

To argue that BSA is a Christian organization, to me, is ludicrous.  Consequently, I think it's shameful to exclude any child from an organization due to their perceived or open sexual orientation. That should not even be a matter of discussion.   Of course, it's my belief that in another generation, this conversation will not be happening.   My kid's generation is much more accepting of homosexuality than ours was, much as our generation is more accepting or racial equality, as compared to our parents.and grandparents.

[cj0e]

So, there's really way too much to cover on this topic, but I'll try to touch on what I've seen, both as a boy who went through scouting and now as a Scoutmaster, and based on reactions from parents and other adults in my district how it will affect scouting locally.

 

1. Homosexuality in scouting.

    a. It already happens, and those troops that are willing to accept it and have a charter organization that will accept it, do. Those organizations that will not, do not. This applies from the top down, adults through youth membership.

    b. Predatory behavior can occur at ANY age. From same age youth/adults, older/younger youth, and adults/youth.

    c. Youth Protection should be enforced on ALL fronts. Be it bullying, sexual advances/abuse, harassment, or physical abuse.

 

2. Scouting as a Religious organization

    a. This is up to each individual troop's Charter Organization

    b. Each charter organization "owns" the troop that it charters. Yes, it is the "boys' troop", however the organization sets the rules under which it may operate.

    c. This national decision attempts to force individual organizations to accept membership of individuals who do not subscribe to the same faith of the aforementioned charter org.

 

To quote Hershemeister, who quotes from the BSA's own website:

The BSA is NOT a Christian organization.

Declaration of Religious Principle

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which a member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to this Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of membership.

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/Relationships/ManualforChaplainsandAides.aspx

Here we find that yes, the BSA does proclaim any specific faith.

 

However

 

It is overlooked that "Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which a member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life." This statement allows for a Charter Organization to set the rules for how a troop will operate with regard to religion.

 

Indeed, a troop that is chartered with an American Legion post or Rotary Club will be run and have potentially differing faith principles than one that is chartered by a Baptist or Methodist church. Even those that meet at one church will have different religious principles than another that may even be of the same denomination or basic faith.

 

3. So, what about this new policy?

     a. Face value: scouting as a whole now accepts openly gay youth.

             i. There will be an eventual push for openly gay adult leaders. Boys who age out at 18 will want to stay involved.

            ii. Is there some magic change from 17 years 11 months and 29 days to 18 years that really changes a person that much?

           iii. Why is a gay leader not ok, but a boy who is almost there and is serving in youth leadership roles in his troop ok?

     b. Individual troops should be able to restrict membership according to their charter organizations rules and beliefs.

             i. The current wording of the new policy doesn't state this.

            ii. I suspect we'll get this confirmation later. We'll see.

     c. A lot of troops in my local district will either disband or continue restricting membership, and these same troops will likely choose to not participate in activities with troops that allow any boy.

     d. Overall membership in my local district will decline or appear to decline as troops stop participating in events with other troops/ disband.

 

What does this mean for me? No idea. Will I stay in scouting? Can't tell at the moment, but I'll probably stay. Too much good to be done.  What is my Charter Org doing? We haven't met yet.

 

That's really all I've been able to muster with regard to this policy. I don't know anything about corporate or individual donations affecting the top level. I don't know polling statistics. I'm not here to talk right or wrong, or to slam one faith or another based on how they choose to discriminate.

 

I can say it's been interesting reading everyone's comments. I'll get back to my seat now and keep reading.

 

EDIT: fixed a sentence fragment.

Edited May 24, 2013 by cj0e

[Dolomite`s Breezy]

Yall really think this is new to any organisations in the USA?

You think gays just now are gay and want to join clubs?

 

They all have gays in it.. and  they are everywhere.. oh no .. the horror..!!!

 

Seriously.. its nothing new.. and you all get bend out of shape because now its official......

 

Silly.. just silly...

[TripleDigitRide]

The newest merit badge has just been released.

 

[Joe357]

"God" is not a religion and all theists do not acknowledge the same one.

The 4 million or so scouts in India say the same oath, ya know, and the God of Abraham isn't much in favor there.

(I left out the millions of Islamic Scouts, since so many claim both Muslims and Christians actually worship that same God of Abraham).

So what GOD do athiest boys worship in the boy scouts?
- OS

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Yall really think this is new to any organisations in the USA?

You think gays just now are gay and want to join clubs?

 

They all have gays in it.. and  they are everywhere.. oh no .. the horror..!!!

 

Seriously.. its nothing new.. and you all get bend out of shape because now its official......

 

Silly.. just silly...

No one said it was new to organizations, but when a class or group tries to mainstream something into an

organization that doesn't want the mainstreaming, there is more to it than a simple statement like "theyve

always been there". It has more to do with the breakdown of societal structure by "mainstreaming" everything.

 

The ultimate goal of this nonsense is breakdown of the family unit, not just allowing gays in the Boy Scouts.

I remember there being those we thought of as gay, already in the scouts, when I was in.

 

That's just not the answer. I don't care one way or another whether someone is gay or not, but trying to make

everything in life "gay friendly" isn't the answer.

[daddyo]

I LOVE how some people try to make you feel guilty and that there's something wrong with you if you don't fully accept homosexuals trying to normalize their behavior.

 

What's next? Churches losing their tax exempt status because they don't adopt a "non-discrimination" policy that is completely antithetical to their belief system?

 

Why are we being forced to change what we believe? How does forced acceptance have any element whatsoever of "fairness"?

[RED333]

The morel values of this country and it people are being lost, if not gone now.

[Daniel]

I LOVE how some people try to make you feel guilty and that there's something wrong with you if you don't fully accept homosexuals trying to normalize their behavior.

 

What's next? Churches losing their tax exempt status because they don't adopt a "non-discrimination" policy that is completely antithetical to their belief system?

 

Why are we being forced to change what we believe? How does forced acceptance have any element whatsoever of "fairness"?

If only.

[TMF]

I LOVE how some people try to make you feel guilty and that there's something wrong with you if you don't fully accept homosexuals trying to normalize their behavior.

What's next? Churches losing their tax exempt status because they don't adopt a "non-discrimination" policy that is completely antithetical to their belief system?

Why are we being forced to change what we believe? How does forced acceptance have any element whatsoever of "fairness"?

BSoA changed their policy. No one forced them. I fully support their right to exclude gays from their organization, just like I support the right of former benefactors not to contribute funding any longer. If BSoA changes their policy back I'm on board 100%. Their organization, their rules.

[RobertNashville]

The morel values of this country and it people are being lost, if not gone now.

I'm sorry Red but I don't see this as a moral issue.  The BSA is a private organization and decided to change their policy...either way they went (keep the existing policy or change it) they were going to piss off some groups of people.  The BSA made a choice and it doesn't bother me at all.

 

Now, if they start holding regular "sensitivity" classed and try to form boy's opinions about homosexuality that's a different matter but that's not what is happening here.

[mikegideon]

[RED333]

I'm sorry Red but I don't see this as a moral issue.  The BSA is a private organization and decided to change their policy...either way they went (keep the existing policy or change it) they were going to piss off some groups of people.  The BSA made a choice and it doesn't bother me at all.

 

Now, if they start holding regular "sensitivity" classed and try to form boy's opinions about homosexuality that's a different matter but that's not what is happening here.

My point

Edited May 25, 2013 by RED333

[Oh Shoot]

So what GOD do athiest boys worship in the boy scouts?

 

Many atheists see mathematics, science, and logic as their higher powers.

 

An agnostic like me "worships" as yet unknowable possibilities, the grand mysteries of the cosmos.

 

- OS

[Garufa]

It's amazing to me how so many people get all worked up about such a small percentage of the population.

 

What's even more disturbing in our democracy is how one person, and that how this all started, can dictate how everyone else must live their lives and what they are required to accept.  That is what is disgusting. 

[Mike.357]

some how I absolutely believe Jesus would say gay kids should be scouts the same as straight kids.

 

No where in any cub scout literature is it mentioned you gotta believe in a certain God.  no where in the scout pack I was involved with did it say you gotta be a Methodist. 

 

And it amazes me that a church would not accept a sinner into their flock.  What a f'd up deal that is.  No wonder I have ZERO interest in organized religion.  Organized religion does not want me because I am a sinner too.

[Randall53]

I LOVE how some people try to make you feel guilty and that there's something wrong with you if you don't fully accept homosexuals trying to normalize their behavior.

What's next? Churches losing their tax exempt status because they don't adopt a "non-discrimination" policy that is completely antithetical to their belief system?

Why are we being forced to change what we believe? How does forced acceptance have any element whatsoever of "fairness"?

you nailed it. they DEMAND tolerance to their lifestyle, yet are totally intolerant to others beliefs.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

What these topics usually degrade to is exactly what the left want them to. They end up in some religious fervor

and then there are those who wish to smear or say something ridiculous that means nothing to the argument.

 

The gay movement is just like the "woman's right to choose" or the "green" movement. They are political tools to

splinter society, drain resources and cause further moral decay. In other words, political corruption of otherwise

decent people.

 

The sad part is not many realize all the damage being done at their own expense. As far as I am concerned, the

Boy Scouts caved on a political issue which had nothing to do with boys being scouts.

 

One more institution down the drain and few gave a damn. It's always disappointing when the same ones see the

opportunity to bash religion when that had nothing to do with it, either. This stuff is straight out of the Communist

Manifesto.

[itchytriggerfinger]

Sad day, nothing more wrong than 2 boys kissing.

 

What about two girls? :devil:

[itchytriggerfinger]